Lack of maturity, or just cultural? The US is increasingly a sexed-up culture at younger ages. Just watch MTV for a week, or listen to a number of pop songs.Did anybody expect differently with the majority of those being young and fit? After all physical attraction does count... ever heard of anti-conceptual means?
Sounds more to me of lack of maturity of all involved parties...
Women ready to combat in WWII
- Thread starter Iñaki
- Start date
I know but these are some of the issues you have to address being the leader.
Ours are also a sexed-up culture.
But perhaps the real dog is buried somewhere else - we still have compulsory service and generally recruit for overseas service from that. Professionel military service is part of our forces but generally state or other forms of civil service are looked upon as not being attractive by young peoples.
So we get those who are curious to go abroard and are feeling the cameraderie of service or intend on doing some difference to the peoples of the countries they go to - or because of career objectives. And being shipped off several times is not an incentive to remain with the service!
Who enters service in the US?
This Actually is No Longer True, at Least as Far as Today's Teenagers Go ...
While it IS True that The Sexual Revolution of The Baby Boomers Led Directly into The Sexual Precociousness of The Majority of Gen X-ers, Gen Y has Served as a Transitional Group into Something More Neutral ...
By All Indications Generation Z is Going to Grow Up without Either The Sexual Adventurousness of their Parents or The Intimate Aversion of their Grandparents!
Redbeard
Banned
In my army time I had female superiors, colleagues and subordinates and found no special problem in that. Only when females, because they were females, were allowed into jobs they were "substandard" for, did serious problems arise. For instance if a woman is on a gun crew but hasn't got the muscles to do the job, she instantly looses respect from her buddies and will be a liability to both herself and the unit. But if accepted by the same standards as her male colleagues I've only seen extraordinarily dedicated female soldiers earning the most sincere professional respect. That of course means that a smaller percentage of females than males are suited for military combat jobs, but those who have the basic abilities (not at least strength) will often be above standard due to extra dedication.
Regards
Steffen Redbeard
Regards
Steffen Redbeard
This is true. In addition, I am only an ROTC cadet. There are certain limits to what I can do. Frankly, I don't see a need for women even in the military unless all our manpower reserves are scraping bottom. That isn't happening in this 300 million person country.
I'll have to point out that women make up a large part of the support services and such. Quartermasters, doctors and nurses, supply and transport, supply planes, military police, R&D, and more. If you had said "women in infantry and armor," I could have agreed, but women play critical roles in the day to day functioning of the military. Take them out, and you'd be taking two legs from a table that supports the rest.
Draft men and keep the women in support roles stateside. I see more than enough healthy young men around my college that could definitely serve a few years in the military. Compulsory service like in Germany.
Or you could draft the women as well, which frees up more men for the combat rolls and requires fewer men to be disproportionately drafted.
Besides, it's not like basic training is some pancea for the ills of society. You'll still have jerkoffs, thugs,, wimps, and cheats that remain jerkoffs, thugs, wimps, and cheats through basic. The career noncoms I've heard speak on the issue have remarked at how the quality of the grunt raised after the draft ended, though it's falling slightly as requirements are lowered.
I like this quote from that page:
"As war approached, and with 2,000 hours flying time and 33,000 passengers under her belt, Pauline looked for an opportunity to contribute to the war effort with her kinds of skills."
33,000 passengers under her belt doing what?
We can only imagine..........
But more seriously, we were sending pilots into combat in Spitfires and Hurricanes with less than ten hours solo flying back in 1940. I would stake my life on it that these women would have delivered an outstanding contribution if they had been given the opportunity.
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We can only imagine..........
But more seriously, we were sending pilots into combat in Spitfires and Hurricanes with less than ten hours solo flying back in 1940. I would stake my life on it that these women would have delivered an outstanding contribution if they had been given the opportunity.
I agree. I also think that they don't deserve that unapropriate peace of inuando.
Now I have to say I don't see were my comment is in any way derogatory but simply a riposte to your query as to the activity's of the 33,000 people in question.
I think if you look at my posts in this thread and the Women in the Military thread it is obvious where my sympathies lie.
MrP
Banned
An over-reaction, surely? Dean was responding playfully to what looks like playful banter from you.
33,000 passengers had been transported by Pauline during her 2,000 hours' flying time. To have something under one's belt is an idiomatic English expression, not aught smutty.
Reading all the posts, it seems that could be a difference between the experiences of women military in US than in Europe?
In Spain the women could serve in the military and also in combat duties, in fact some women are even enlisted in the Legion, that is one of the elite corps of the Spanish Army, in fact Idoia Rodriguez a soldier of 23 years was the first spanish woman died in military action in the history of the army when she was killed in action in 2007 in Afganistan.
It seems that more or less serve with great will of acomplish their duties, and as showed the death of Idoia they was prepared to go to risky missions.
Also we should think that women has served as militaries or warriors in differents cultures: Artemisia of Halicarnasus leaded personally her fleet in Salamina, Boadicea commanded her troops personally, the female scythian archers were famous in the ancient times (and in part the basis for rumours of amazon kingdoms in zone of Ukraine), the celts seems that permitted the women serve as warriors, there were other examples, in some case exceptionals giving the athmosphere of the times when they happened but that show that at least the women could serve as soldiers:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_women_in_early_modern_warfare
the example of Idoia, the facts showed by Arctic Warrior and Redbeard, and we never should forget the example of soviet women in World War II: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_women_in_the_Great_Patriotic_War, in fact we would not need any other argument seeing the facts about the use of women by the Soviet forces to doubt that the women motivated and with the will to accomplish their duties with great will could clearly serve in practically all the combat duties during a war as good as their male counterparts.
Respect to the examples of the ROTC, I don´t know if this is caused by some kind of cultural differences between US or Europe, although I think personally that I agree with Arctic Warrior:"You guy's seems to be pretty bad off then - being a leader you have to identify what the problem is, if they can't or won't do this or that and then report sick - make them do or quit!
That has nothing whatsoever to do with sexism witch-hunt this is leadership!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If those women have some problems monthly or whatever; adresse that problem to solve it - they knew the conditions when entering said service, didn't they??? But don't as a leader tell me, I suspect - talk to the person, get a picture of whats the problem and solve it in some way..."
And returning to the point of causing a far more presence of women in World War combat duties, could be we nee a POD before the World War II, I was thinking and also with the information proportionated by another posters of this thread I made this some kind of brief TL:
Caused in part by the presence of special women units in Russia during World War I (as indicated by Merry Prankster) and the fact that Stalin dies during the fight for the power against Trotsky, Trotsky is the now leader of Soviet Union, based in this (and I confess I am guiding with personal instinct about the World Revolution and the equality showed by the soviets in treating women and men equal at least initially) and the presence also without the stalinist purges of some women in interesting power places like Alexandra Kollontai, there is some effort to experiment with women in some combat duties (an earlier formation under Jan Alaknis of experimental air combat units under Marina Raskova), the fact of this World is that Trotsky after the failures of the attempts of made a revolution in Germany in 1933 against Hitler (only reforcing the position of Hitler) an disilusioned and weaken by the failures have to share the power with Bujarin, (no purges against the militaries because no Stalin).
1934 sees the bombing of the belgrade parliamen with the death of Alexander I of Yugoslavia (this but causes the survival of Barthou).
1937 Crisis in Rhineland: the little war between Germany and France is followed by the intermediation of the United Kingdom by a treaty that permits the occupation of Rhineland by german troops in exchange with the demilitarization of the german frontier with Belgium and France.
1938 Nazi coup in Austria and a quick invasion of 5 days surprised alls including Barthou and Mussolini. Anschluss with Austria (at this time Neville Chamberlain goverment considers so dangerous the attitude of Barthou and Mussolini respect to Hitler than the Hitler agressive position, there is a clear british neutrality)
1938 october: blitzkrieg in Czechoslovakia, in 20 days the czech army collapses, there is a hard resistance and important losses in german army but at the end the czechs suffers the first real show of the blitzkrieg, France with all the time need for mobilization not could intervene actively except some minor skirmishes in Sarre with Germany, Mussolini that expected a quick reaction by France (the fortified Brenner Pass was too much hard for italian troops to try to pass and Mussolini expected first a great french offensive to according to the pacted with Barthou go against the germans) is enraged by the slow mobilization of France and clearly from this adopts a neutral position in future european affairs (he maintains but a personal friendship with Barthou).
Dimission of Barthou.
Hitler annexes Sudetenland while Slovakia is proclaimed independent, Chamberlain praises the moderation of Herr Hitler when he decides to permit czechs remain independents.
1939 April Annexion of czech lands by Hitler: Chamberlain suffers attacks in the parliament for permitting to feed this wolf that seems to want to eat Europe. Crisis in the Daladier Government, substitution by Reynaud, return of Barthou to the Foreign Affairs, substitution of Gamelin (accused of fiasco of France during the Czech War) by Weygand, Bilotte named commandant of the new Armee of Metier Français to counteract against the panzer divisions that in Czechoslovakia showed the new style of war. Pact between UK, Poland and France (Italia is invited but refuses because Mussolini not believes that the West could have a real will in treat with the germans, he but offers secretly to Barthou all the economic and diplomatic support of Italy to France in case of war against Germany)
The Soviet Union that by this time has a less massive army than in OTL but more modern and profesionalized and well leaded has also two air regiments of fighters and one of bombers manned by women and some little experimentation with some reluctance by some soviet officers are leaded in creating soviet tank units manned by women.
20 August 1939 Hitler invades Poland. Soviet Union proclaims his neutrality (Trotsky believes that this war is war between capitalist potences and so on it is better to see the capitalist destroying themself, also the Soviet Union is at the beginning of the Nipon-Soviet War of 1939-40 -where the soviet women pilots perform a good role in fighter missions- Neroon idea).
2 october french forces occupies all the Sarre after hard resistance.
16 october: last polish resistance defeated
March 1940. Forced by the presence of considerable forces in the allied side and also because in this ATL not count with the soviet help to provide raw materials, Hitler needs to end definitively and quickly a campaign in the west (no Scandinavian campaign), accepts Guderian plan (in the other side french after the Sarre campaign have a lot of positive thinking in battling the germans: sadly because this -too much proud- Breda variant is chosen).
April-july 1940 the fall of the West: Guderian forces smashes french-british forces. May: Disaster at Dunkerke: a lot of men and equipment are lost (Derek Jackson idea, effectively BEF is more or less almost wiped out, Bilotte and De Gaulle but have could made an ordered retreat of french units -little french units are present in TTL in Dunkerke- to the line of the Somme)
Fall of Chamberlain goverment. Churchill government begins: he says that UK is prepared to fight until the last man, Barthou and Reynaud indicates that France is prepared to fight also until the last man (in TTL the frech suffers far less losses than the british because almost any frech unit was trapped in Dunkirk).
July: evacuation of French govermment to North Africa.
Hitler decided to press the seemed weak link of the allied chain : UK, Hitler indicates that british have been victims of the lies of the french like Barthou and Reynaud and mad and proud men like Churchill in a war against the nation that should be his naturall ally, he offers peace to Great Britain, this is refused by Churchill and the coalition government of UK.
Beginning of the Walkyria Operation (the pression against great Britain) massive operations against airfields in Great Britain: the Battle of Great Britain has begin, british receives support from frech air units transported from North Africa, but they suffers a lot, they need use women pilots early to use to transport new fighters to the airfields, in one of such ocassions women pilots engage german fighters, they performed more or less well, and having a great need of pilots, reluctanctly is decided to experiment with this, Churchill is not a great enthusiast of the idea but the example of soviet women performance in fighter missions in Soviet-Japanese war of 1939-40 and the desperate situation obligates to made this decision.
August 1940: that terrible sea mammal begins when the germans try to invade England after weakening the air defenses of United Kingdom, during 72 hours it seems that some kind of miracle could be get but then appears the Royal Navy and the French fleet and in the battle of Channel send to the most part of the Kriegsmarine to the bottom of the sea (Italy neutrality -and in fact economic support to France- permits move men, ships and equipment to confront this invasion also some frech units are active during the two weeks of campaign against german invasions) the experimental Squadrons "the Eagles Ladies" and "Ladies of the Skies" performs reasonably well, in fact performing a lot of risky missions showing a great will in fight german fighters -Churchill would say of these women: "these ladies could be mad in making these missions, but it is no doubt that if this is madness I think that I begin to like this kind of madness" -
The defeat of the Kriegsmarine mades of the Luftwaffe the only way to get provission for the isolated german units in UK but without any reinforcements and the fact that now the british airforce is beginning to recover made of the two weeks of land campaign in England practically a long agony for the german units.
Caused by the failure of the Walkyria Operation plus the example of soviet women in the air force (also a experimental tank battalion only manned by women has been forme at this time in Soviet Union) mades the pression by Hanna Reitscht get part of his objective: the creation of the first experimental squadron of Luftwaffe manned by women -but ony to special missions like transport commandos or escort personalities-)
In the UK the succes of the women experiment and the propaganda about these ladies permits to consolidate the presence of women in combat roles as fighter pilots.
.......................
And well I think that with this we have the beginning of a more active participation than in OTL of women in combat units in this ATL World II (surely will have a barbarossa operation with important roles for soviet women and could be even with the time german women fighter pilots)
In Spain the women could serve in the military and also in combat duties, in fact some women are even enlisted in the Legion, that is one of the elite corps of the Spanish Army, in fact Idoia Rodriguez a soldier of 23 years was the first spanish woman died in military action in the history of the army when she was killed in action in 2007 in Afganistan.
It seems that more or less serve with great will of acomplish their duties, and as showed the death of Idoia they was prepared to go to risky missions.
Also we should think that women has served as militaries or warriors in differents cultures: Artemisia of Halicarnasus leaded personally her fleet in Salamina, Boadicea commanded her troops personally, the female scythian archers were famous in the ancient times (and in part the basis for rumours of amazon kingdoms in zone of Ukraine), the celts seems that permitted the women serve as warriors, there were other examples, in some case exceptionals giving the athmosphere of the times when they happened but that show that at least the women could serve as soldiers:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_women_in_early_modern_warfare
the example of Idoia, the facts showed by Arctic Warrior and Redbeard, and we never should forget the example of soviet women in World War II: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_women_in_the_Great_Patriotic_War, in fact we would not need any other argument seeing the facts about the use of women by the Soviet forces to doubt that the women motivated and with the will to accomplish their duties with great will could clearly serve in practically all the combat duties during a war as good as their male counterparts.
Respect to the examples of the ROTC, I don´t know if this is caused by some kind of cultural differences between US or Europe, although I think personally that I agree with Arctic Warrior:"You guy's seems to be pretty bad off then - being a leader you have to identify what the problem is, if they can't or won't do this or that and then report sick - make them do or quit!
That has nothing whatsoever to do with sexism witch-hunt this is leadership!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If those women have some problems monthly or whatever; adresse that problem to solve it - they knew the conditions when entering said service, didn't they??? But don't as a leader tell me, I suspect - talk to the person, get a picture of whats the problem and solve it in some way...
"And returning to the point of causing a far more presence of women in World War combat duties, could be we nee a POD before the World War II, I was thinking and also with the information proportionated by another posters of this thread I made this some kind of brief TL:
Caused in part by the presence of special women units in Russia during World War I (as indicated by Merry Prankster) and the fact that Stalin dies during the fight for the power against Trotsky, Trotsky is the now leader of Soviet Union, based in this (and I confess I am guiding with personal instinct about the World Revolution and the equality showed by the soviets in treating women and men equal at least initially) and the presence also without the stalinist purges of some women in interesting power places like Alexandra Kollontai, there is some effort to experiment with women in some combat duties (an earlier formation under Jan Alaknis of experimental air combat units under Marina Raskova), the fact of this World is that Trotsky after the failures of the attempts of made a revolution in Germany in 1933 against Hitler (only reforcing the position of Hitler) an disilusioned and weaken by the failures have to share the power with Bujarin, (no purges against the militaries because no Stalin).
1934 sees the bombing of the belgrade parliamen with the death of Alexander I of Yugoslavia (this but causes the survival of Barthou).
1937 Crisis in Rhineland: the little war between Germany and France is followed by the intermediation of the United Kingdom by a treaty that permits the occupation of Rhineland by german troops in exchange with the demilitarization of the german frontier with Belgium and France.
1938 Nazi coup in Austria and a quick invasion of 5 days surprised alls including Barthou and Mussolini. Anschluss with Austria (at this time Neville Chamberlain goverment considers so dangerous the attitude of Barthou and Mussolini respect to Hitler than the Hitler agressive position, there is a clear british neutrality)
1938 october: blitzkrieg in Czechoslovakia, in 20 days the czech army collapses, there is a hard resistance and important losses in german army but at the end the czechs suffers the first real show of the blitzkrieg, France with all the time need for mobilization not could intervene actively except some minor skirmishes in Sarre with Germany, Mussolini that expected a quick reaction by France (the fortified Brenner Pass was too much hard for italian troops to try to pass and Mussolini expected first a great french offensive to according to the pacted with Barthou go against the germans) is enraged by the slow mobilization of France and clearly from this adopts a neutral position in future european affairs (he maintains but a personal friendship with Barthou).
Dimission of Barthou.
Hitler annexes Sudetenland while Slovakia is proclaimed independent, Chamberlain praises the moderation of Herr Hitler when he decides to permit czechs remain independents.
1939 April Annexion of czech lands by Hitler: Chamberlain suffers attacks in the parliament for permitting to feed this wolf that seems to want to eat Europe. Crisis in the Daladier Government, substitution by Reynaud, return of Barthou to the Foreign Affairs, substitution of Gamelin (accused of fiasco of France during the Czech War) by Weygand, Bilotte named commandant of the new Armee of Metier Français to counteract against the panzer divisions that in Czechoslovakia showed the new style of war. Pact between UK, Poland and France (Italia is invited but refuses because Mussolini not believes that the West could have a real will in treat with the germans, he but offers secretly to Barthou all the economic and diplomatic support of Italy to France in case of war against Germany)
The Soviet Union that by this time has a less massive army than in OTL but more modern and profesionalized and well leaded has also two air regiments of fighters and one of bombers manned by women and some little experimentation with some reluctance by some soviet officers are leaded in creating soviet tank units manned by women.
20 August 1939 Hitler invades Poland. Soviet Union proclaims his neutrality (Trotsky believes that this war is war between capitalist potences and so on it is better to see the capitalist destroying themself, also the Soviet Union is at the beginning of the Nipon-Soviet War of 1939-40 -where the soviet women pilots perform a good role in fighter missions- Neroon idea).
2 october french forces occupies all the Sarre after hard resistance.
16 october: last polish resistance defeated
March 1940. Forced by the presence of considerable forces in the allied side and also because in this ATL not count with the soviet help to provide raw materials, Hitler needs to end definitively and quickly a campaign in the west (no Scandinavian campaign), accepts Guderian plan (in the other side french after the Sarre campaign have a lot of positive thinking in battling the germans: sadly because this -too much proud- Breda variant is chosen).
April-july 1940 the fall of the West: Guderian forces smashes french-british forces. May: Disaster at Dunkerke: a lot of men and equipment are lost (Derek Jackson idea, effectively BEF is more or less almost wiped out, Bilotte and De Gaulle but have could made an ordered retreat of french units -little french units are present in TTL in Dunkerke- to the line of the Somme)
Fall of Chamberlain goverment. Churchill government begins: he says that UK is prepared to fight until the last man, Barthou and Reynaud indicates that France is prepared to fight also until the last man (in TTL the frech suffers far less losses than the british because almost any frech unit was trapped in Dunkirk).
July: evacuation of French govermment to North Africa.
Hitler decided to press the seemed weak link of the allied chain : UK, Hitler indicates that british have been victims of the lies of the french like Barthou and Reynaud and mad and proud men like Churchill in a war against the nation that should be his naturall ally, he offers peace to Great Britain, this is refused by Churchill and the coalition government of UK.
Beginning of the Walkyria Operation (the pression against great Britain) massive operations against airfields in Great Britain: the Battle of Great Britain has begin, british receives support from frech air units transported from North Africa, but they suffers a lot, they need use women pilots early to use to transport new fighters to the airfields, in one of such ocassions women pilots engage german fighters, they performed more or less well, and having a great need of pilots, reluctanctly is decided to experiment with this, Churchill is not a great enthusiast of the idea but the example of soviet women performance in fighter missions in Soviet-Japanese war of 1939-40 and the desperate situation obligates to made this decision.
August 1940: that terrible sea mammal begins when the germans try to invade England after weakening the air defenses of United Kingdom, during 72 hours it seems that some kind of miracle could be get but then appears the Royal Navy and the French fleet and in the battle of Channel send to the most part of the Kriegsmarine to the bottom of the sea (Italy neutrality -and in fact economic support to France- permits move men, ships and equipment to confront this invasion also some frech units are active during the two weeks of campaign against german invasions) the experimental Squadrons "the Eagles Ladies" and "Ladies of the Skies" performs reasonably well, in fact performing a lot of risky missions showing a great will in fight german fighters -Churchill would say of these women: "these ladies could be mad in making these missions, but it is no doubt that if this is madness I think that I begin to like this kind of madness" -
The defeat of the Kriegsmarine mades of the Luftwaffe the only way to get provission for the isolated german units in UK but without any reinforcements and the fact that now the british airforce is beginning to recover made of the two weeks of land campaign in England practically a long agony for the german units.
Caused by the failure of the Walkyria Operation plus the example of soviet women in the air force (also a experimental tank battalion only manned by women has been forme at this time in Soviet Union) mades the pression by Hanna Reitscht get part of his objective: the creation of the first experimental squadron of Luftwaffe manned by women -but ony to special missions like transport commandos or escort personalities-)
In the UK the succes of the women experiment and the propaganda about these ladies permits to consolidate the presence of women in combat roles as fighter pilots.
.......................
And well I think that with this we have the beginning of a more active participation than in OTL of women in combat units in this ATL World II (surely will have a barbarossa operation with important roles for soviet women and could be even with the time german women fighter pilots)
I think I understand what you're saying and trust me, I did everything in my legal limits to motivate them. One of them, the weeping one, thanked me later for how helpful I was. Frankly though, they just aren't worth it. One wrong pat or touch and your career is over.
The Israelis allow women in combat roles....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Defense_Forces#Women_in_the_IDF said:
MrP
Banned
under your belt
if you have an experience or a qualification under your belt, you have completed it successfully, and it may be useful to you in the future. She was a capable individual, with fourteen years as managing director under her belt. He has several major drama awards under his belt.
Feel this one is addressed to me:
I don't doubt your words and as you have noticed your actions was noticed by said woman. Thats all there is to it...
Wrong pat's or touches - well know your place, keep things out in the open or get a watch dog along when talking to the other sex if its necessary...
I still believe they are worth it - perhaps not in your outfit, and that needs to be made clear to your superiors, but then somewhere else with the service...
Always stick within legal limits (18 years of leadership with the airforce, Home Guard, police and an independent council)
If female ferrying pilots were jumped by trained fighter pilots they would be slaughtered. Ferrying pilots are basically transport pilots and do not have any training or learned skills in air combat maneuvering. It is a basic fallacy to think that any experienced pilot will do well in air combat simply because they know how to fly. Germany made that assumption (in desperation) when they switched bomber and transport pilots to their jet fighter units. Those poor sods were killed in droves without achieving much.
The Soviet female pilots were mostly a p.r. stunt. Initially a few managed to get into cockpits due to the desperate times in '41-'42 and a handful were indeed very good pilots (as there will always be a few talented specimens in any group) but the majority were not that good. Perhaps because they lacked the physical strength/stamina necessary in WWII fighters?
The all-female units were quickly relegated to quiet sectors where they were less likely to run into opposition (after '43 there were only 300 German fighters covering the entire Eastern front). Most of the women were assigned to a night bomber unit (the famous Night Witches squadron) because the Soviet authorities deemed it less likely to run into trouble at night.
The all-female units (only 3 or 4 IIRC) received a lot of p.r. attention (far beyond their immediate military worth) because they acted as inspiration for the Soviets in general and Soviet women in particular.
Not just female ferry pilots, any ferry pilot even a service pilot carrying out that role would have been vulnerable. Aircraft being ferried often had not even had their guns fitted and they were never armed.
My Father was a serving RAF pilot 44-45 he ferried a Lockheed Ventura from the factory to the UK when he finished his advanced training in Florida, it had no guns fitted. Several times during his service he ferried machines when he was transfered around, it maximised assets. Ferry flights were not sorties they went into his log book as such. They were briefed to evade the enemy if their was a contact and the weapons were not loaded.
Trained pilots in the RAF received their operational training in the squadron they were posted to. Often pilots received that training on their first operational sortie. Their briefing usually went something along the lines of "just stay as close to me as possible and do what I do." A good example of this was Air Vice Marshall J Johnson who started exactly in this way at the height of the BoB and went on to become the highest scoring allied pilot in the ETO. Of course mostly they were killed.
Now to say a pilot of either sex with more than 1,000hrs experience will not perform better than one with less than 10hrs is not a reasonable assumption.
I thought it was the newly qualified pilots that had the highest casualty rate in the German Jet units.