Without Islam, is technological development considerably hindered?

Were the Muslims very helpful OTL for innovation? Yes--thank you Ibn Sina, al-Jabir, Ibn Rushd, and so many others.

Were they "necessary" for the rediscovery of ancient knowledge? Not necessarily. You had the Greeks, and an alternate Italy or Gothic Spain could very well have developed the institutions that allowed Europe to exploit preserved knowledge. The Muslims had the immense benefit of bringing together Greek, Roman, Indian and Persian knowledge all together under one aegis; if the Romans can seize Mesopotamia or if the Persians go Christian somehow, then you could see the same levels of innovation in the Mediterranean world.

That being said, technological progress probably would be hindered if a) the Roman-Sassanid conflicts continue, b) if Italy and Spain are subject to further decays in civil society, c) if religious reaction becomes particularly heinous against received knowledge. There are a lot of factors at play.
 

Zlorfik

Banned
Nothing necessitates Islam specifically. However, it is untrue to say that the Byzantines as opposed to the Romans and Greeks innovated in the areas that Islamic civilizations did. The Byzantine state was not hostile to innovation, and indeed showed a remarkable capacity to reform itself following severe challenges. However, the article mentions little if anything on innovations in areas such as astronomy and mechanics
oh ye of little faith :p
http://lss.fnal.gov/archive/other/do-th-98-18.pdf

Hypatia should count too, at least as late roman.
Iohannes Philiponos— byzantine galileo

, which alongside other things leads me to conclude in certain areas, the Byzantine Empire was just as conductive to the development of science as the Caliphate was. If you have anything to disprove this I'd be interested in seeing this.
that's all we're saying- they're comparable

I don't think the pre-islam romans did much in the way of mechanics, chemistry and such.

still, took the muslim world quite a while to get to that going

get enough tinkerers together, things happen. the romans figured out greek fire and hand grenades well enough

As for the point about the Persian scientists, my point isn't about Muslims having some natural scientific ability lacked by others, but that the Caliphate produced an environment more conductive to scientific research than either Sassanid Persia or Byzantium.
byzantines were innovation-friendly, at the minimum
the alexandrine region was a hotspot for innovation

I remember reading someone making a point on the board a year ago that the Arab desertification of North Africa was a myth propagated by the French in the 19th century to justify their colonialism. It was based largely on selective readings of ancient sources to exaggerate the previous productivity of North Africa as a granary. Unfortunately I can't find any sources to back this up at the moment.
https://books.google.com/books?id=d...page&q=desertification arab conquests&f=false

Actually, Albert Hourani notes that the first few centuries of Islamic rule "led to the growth of large cities", largely due to the absorption of such a large area into a single Empire, which created an enormous economic unit and so forth. If one is to go off the "Big History" perspective and believe that innovation is the result of increasingly complex societies which are made up of larger numbers of potential innovators, there is a compelling case that the creation of the Caliphate, and the subsequent unit of the "Muslim World" was indeed an advantage for scientific innovation that Byzantium and the Sassanid Empire lacked.
growth of large cities due to peace
the byz/sass empires were absolutely exhausted at the time of the first islamic conquests. given a decent recovery period (some wars here and there, but nothing as bad as what khosrau had done) they will also experience a "growth in large cities"
 
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Nothing necessitates Islam specifically. However, it is untrue to say that the Byzantines as opposed to the Romans and Greeks innovated in the areas that Islamic civilizations did. The Byzantine state was not hostile to innovation, and indeed showed a remarkable capacity to reform itself following severe challenges. However, the article mentions little if anything on innovations in areas such as astronomy and mechanics, which alongside other things leads me to conclude in certain areas, the Byzantine Empire was just as conductive to the development of science as the Caliphate was. If you have anything to disprove this I'd be interested in seeing this.

I'm not quite sure what your second point is trying to say. Most scientific theory is based on what has gone before, and it is likely that any development in the Early Middle Ages would be based on the works of the classics. As for the point about the Persian scientists, my point isn't about Muslims having some natural scientific ability lacked by others, but that the Caliphate produced an environment more conductive to scientific research than either Sassanid Persia or Byzantium.



I remember reading someone making a point on the board a year ago that the Arab desertification of North Africa was a myth propagated by the French in the 19th century to justify their colonialism. It was based largely on selective readings of ancient sources to exaggerate the previous productivity of North Africa as a granary. Unfortunately I can't find any sources to back this up at the moment.


Actually, Albert Hourani notes that the first few centuries of Islamic rule "led to the growth of large cities", largely due to the absorption of such a large area into a single Empire, which created an enormous economic unit and so forth. If one is to go off the "Big History" perspective and believe that innovation is the result of increasingly complex societies which are made up of larger numbers of potential innovators, there is a compelling case that the creation of the Caliphate, and the subsequent unit of the "Muslim World" was indeed an advantage for scientific innovation that Byzantium and the Sassanid Empire lacked.



But did the Khilafah really benefit from its new found empire? Or did it squander it after a short period of disastrous revolt? The fact is that the Khilafah whether Umayyad or Abbasid were crushed (as far as actual real power) after only a short time of power. This as I have asserted earlier was due to the incredible instability of the Khilafah due to:

1. The decadence of the Abbasid royal family and their little clique of sorts in Baghdad who were primarirly pro Arab and extreme noble Mu'tazalites. It is hard to be the Khilafah the righteous defender of the faith and sword of Islam and commander of the faithful whenever you have a court full of scholars who commit Bidaa and say that what is obviously haram (to the general population) is really Halal and the allowing of Qarmations to tear up Makkah and desecrate the ZamZam well. As well, in many cases the Khilafah didn't even rule and was dominated by his court as in the case of Al-Radi bi-llah and Muhammad ibn Ra'iq.

2. The use of runaway rural slavery and the castration of its African slaves. For some reason Arab slave traders during the Umayyad and Abbasid period feared myths on African fertility and to remedy their fears Zanj slaves were universally castrated. This caused a problem, if you need constant slaves for you rural agriculture or just because Arabs of the day used slaves as everyday gifts and bargaining tools (it was a currency if you like) and the slaves aren't reproducing then that means wars must constantly be fought to regain the supply, which kept the Khilafah at almost a constant state of war. As well, the toil of these slaves was evident and was used by the Shurha to incite massive revolts, revolts and instability that would bring the fragile Khilafah to its knees.

3. The use and reliance upon Turkish Mamluk slaves. Again this is a negative effect of decadence and weakness of the Arab noble class. This did much to break the notion of the need for a Khilafah and questioned legitimacy especially when a Khilafah is killed by his Turkish slave and Allah doesn't rebuke the slave. Things like this go a long way and destroying the legitimacy of the commander of the faithful and his Arab noble class.

4. The religious instability of a decadent state. Again a decadent state who claims such high religious power cannot seem weak and decadent to his people, but the Abbasids did and instead of growth we saw instability in the form of sectarianism with Shia coming out of Taqqiyyah in Arabia and Iraq to put one of the Ahl Al-Bayt on the throne opposed to the decadent and weak Khilafah, this was finally realized with the rise of the Fatimids and built upon by the Qarmations or the Bahrain revolts.

5. The lack of real Islamic backing and no real authority according to Fiqh. This can be seen in how the Khilafah disregarded the Shura councils and preferred dynastic succession, what happens when the population catches on and realizes hey, these guys aren't doing it as is prescribed in the Quran or in the Sunnah. This gave the Shurha wood to toss into the flame for its war against the Arab hierarchy and led to its large following, but afterwards Islamic states did not claim the title so heavily and because it did not claim the title it did not have to act so on the dotted line as the Abbasids had to. Also it helps whenever you no longer use slaves for every type of transaction lol.

Now tell me how a state (Sassanids, Byzantium and Ethiopia) who lacked these problems (had there own but still) would not have innovated itself, especially after the Hellenic world recovers from the plague of Justinian and Byzantium possibly recreates Pax Romana.
 
To those who believe that the Islam is the sole reason that the technological progress was not hindered, I really must say that they are wrong:
1. Many of the inventions made in the Islamic world were not made by Arabs but in most cases by Persians. And without the Arab expansion (of which we do not really know much) Persia would have survived.
2. Other inventions which were credited to the muslims were not invented by them but only used. Often these were based on designs from pre-islamic times (wind mill) or were invented outside the Islamic world (e.g. Arab numbers (which were invented in India)).
3. And then there are several inventions which were made in Europe (e.g. glasses).
Thus I believe that without Islam we would still have the same technological progress, or even more progress because with the Islamic world interrupting the trade with the far East the plague did not devastate Europe for several centuries. And the increased technological progress happened in Europe after the Black Death killed millions, because the inventions were used to compensate the losses. A society build on slavery as the Islamic world was could not do this, for them the solution would have been to capture more slaves.
 
Would any great power located in the middle east during that timeframe (600-1200) automatically experience a cultural and scientific golden age due to the trade of ideas between east and west, regardless of ideology, or was Islam necessary for that?

Short Answer: Islam was not strictly required. Too many inter-related variables are involved.

Long Answer: Many, many butterflies are involved, and the many potential outcomes all but make it impossible to give an accurate answer currently. For example, there may be an alternate religion that effectively replaces Islam, and then obtain same result, although this is an unlikely event.

What probably happens:

-We get different wars of different intensity, causing many complicated changes to technological, cultural and economic development.

-Different cultures might make it more or less easy to trade, affecting technological and cultural development, which then affects other items, such as ability to wage war (See point 1).

-Differing marriage customs could easily produce new people that spur technological development, among other items, such as wars.
 
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I mean ultimately it's a very similar question to "would science advance as much if the Romans didn't conquer the shit out of Iron Age Europe" and can be roundly generalised as "are large colonial efforts necessary for technological advancement" and then again reduced to "are hegemonic cultures progressive during their expansion phase" ?

If someone builds an empire that after a period of suitably horrible democide, exploitation, slavery, cultural erasure, and imposition of outside values comes to a compromise with the subjugated peoples in a settler state, as well as links directly previously disconnected areas, is it inherently more likely to produce cultural, economic and technological innovation?

Colonial settler states do tend to have better productivity and development levels than the societies they replaced along the way, given enough time to develop. The Arab colonial settler state of the middle ages was no exception, replacing smaller entities and also older empires perceived as stagnant.

The trouble with that of course is that the exact same argument can apply to the Muslim world itself when it proved unable to resist colonizing efforts from the Turcic/Mongol peoples and later European colonists. Is colonial expansion the price of technological innovation? Realistically it's hard to say; but possibly, yes.
 
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There is a huge difference between the Roman expansion and the Arab expansion. The Roman already were an advanced civilization while the Arabs were "barbarians" who managed to conquer region which were much more advanced than they were.
 
There is a huge difference between the Roman expansion and the Arab expansion. The Roman already were an advanced civilization while the Arabs were "barbarians" who managed to conquer region which were much more advanced than they were.

Were the Romans more advanced than say Carthage or the Hellenistic states? Of course that's a no. Were they more advanced than the Gauls? Ehhhh.

So definitely comparable.
 
Were the Romans more advanced than say Carthage or the Hellenistic states? Of course that's a no. Were they more advanced than the Gauls? Ehhhh.

So definitely comparable.
No, it is definitly not comparable. Rome was an urban culture, the Arabs were mostly nomads. Thus the Arab expansion is much more comparable with the Germanic migration, even if the Germanic tribe were no nomads but had a rural culture.
 
No, it is definitly not comparable. Rome was an urban culture, the Arabs were mostly nomads. Thus the Arab expansion is much more comparable with the Germanic migration, even if the Germanic tribe were no nomads but had a rural culture.

The Arab self-image was heavily drawing on the Bedouin. In practice they were a fairly urban culture, much more so than the Germans, simply because Northern European homesteading does not work in Arabia.
 

Zlorfik

Banned
The Arab self-image was heavily drawing on the Bedouin. In practice they were a fairly urban culture, much more so than the Germans, simply because Northern European homesteading does not work in Arabia.
Very comparable to the visi/ostrogoths, except they (gradually, through incentives) imposed a new religion and with it a new language of prestige.
 
Were the Romans more advanced than say Carthage or the Hellenistic states? Of course that's a no. Were they more advanced than the Gauls? Ehhhh.

So definitely comparable.



I don't think you can say that Qartāj (Carthage) was more advanced than Rome in any real sense. Rome by the Punic wars had caught up to the Hellenic/Punic world.
 
The Arab self-image was heavily drawing on the Bedouin. In practice they were a fairly urban culture, much more so than the Germans, simply because Northern European homesteading does not work in Arabia.


This self image however caused significant shifts in the economic structure of the Middle East regardless of practice. It stands to reason that huge aspects of the Middle East from slavery to road systems to agriculture where changed because their conquerors can from the desert with a deep love and pride of their culture.
 

Zlorfik

Banned
This self image however caused significant shifts in the economic structure of the Middle East regardless of practice. It stands to reason that huge aspects of the Middle East from slavery to road systems to agriculture where changed because their conquerors can from the desert with a deep love and pride of their culture.
Have you read a source on this cause/effect or did you divine it from other things?

I'm curious about it either way
 
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