WI: Union Punishes Most Confederate Leadership After the US Civil War?

Well the thing is that few supported extreme punitive measures after the war. Most people wanted peace and reconciliation, not endless bloodletting.

At most you might hang egregious offenders like Forrest and Wirz while imprisoning Davis and preventing any former Confederate leaders from voting, and the American public would probably think that punishment aplenty.

Don't forget the Confederate Secretary of War, James Seddon. Definitely IMO belongs at the top of the list of "Should have been hung", but wasn't. It was criminal that Wirz was hanged (not that he didn't deserve it) while all those further up the chain got off scot free. I'm not talking about Andersonville really, though. I mean the Confederate Congress' proclamation that all US Negro troops captured would be returned (or if born free, cast into) to a state of Slavery. Any uniformed Coloured soldier was to be summarily executed, along with their White officers. Which is why in battle casualties for Coloured Troops' White officers were extreme.

It was one thing for a legislative body to issue a proclamation. But Seddon saw to it that it was enacted with extreme prejudice.:mad: He specifically states in his orders that Coloured troops should generally not be taken prisoner and that their White officers NEVER be taken alive.:mad: Demerit #3017 for the Andrew Johnson Administration that he was pardoned. Better that he should have been hanged, while Davis be made to watch, and then released, denied his own martyrdom. Bad enough that that SOB Wirz has a fucking statue erected in his honor in Georgia:mad:
 
Has the planter class been destroyed and exiled and former slaves received land, which would have been both lawful and just it would have been much harder to disfranchise former slaves later
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
Think about how the British did with harsh measures in Ireland after the Easter Rising. Multiple that by about a hundred thousand and you'd get some idea of how well this would work for the United States in this context.

Lincoln's policy of reconciliation was the correct one and yet another example of his unrivalled wisdom.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Actually, there were PLENTY of people who

Well the thing is that few supported extreme punitive measures after the war. Most people wanted peace and reconciliation, not endless bloodletting.

At most you might hang egregious offenders like Forrest and Wirz while imprisoning Davis and preventing any former Confederate leaders from voting, and the American public would probably think that punishment aplenty.

Actually, there were PLENTY of people who had no interest in peace and reconciliation, and were entirely unrelectant about engaging in bloodletting, as they did for much of the next century...

Best,
 
Has the planter class been destroyed and exiled and former slaves received land, which would have been both lawful and just it would have been much harder to disfranchise former slaves later


If the Freedmen were unable to maintain their right to vote in the face of white opposition, why should they do any better at hanging on to any land they were given?
 
Actually, there were PLENTY of people who had no interest in peace and reconciliation, and were entirely unrelectant about engaging in bloodletting, as they did for much of the next century...

Best,

But this time round they were a bit smarter.

They never tried a second secession, or anything else that threatened the substance of the Northern victory. Had they been that smart in 1861 there'd have been no war, and they could probably have kept slavery well into the20C.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Except it is fair to argue that the Southern

Davis's imprisonment and mistreatment did, in fact, make him something of a martyr in the South. Impressively, it made him something he never really was during the war - popular among southerners.

By going relatively easy on Confederate leaders, the Lincoln and Johnson Administrations made it easier to reconcile southern societies to the restoration of the Union. Line 'em up against the wall, and it's a recipe for generations of Union military occupation, and low intensity conflict. Which would have made the North a different place, too.


Except it is fair to argue the Southern US WAS the theater of a low intensity conflict for the next century, complete with ethnic cleansing, extra-judicial execution (to the tens of thousands), political violence that reached the level of battle ("the battle of Colfax," for example), and what amounted to a military occupation - except by locally-raised militias, not "national" armies... And those being "occupied," of course, were not those who had rebelled - far from it.

Best,
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Fusion politics writ large...

Not if you give poor whites and blacks a stake in the new Reconstruction system by giving them the Planter Class' land, many of whom would've been killed off or exiled due to treason. And the South was demographically hurt by the Civil War. Before the native South population can recover, encourage European immigration and Northern immigration of families to the South, decreasing the percentage of the population that has a tie to the Antebellum South.

Fusion politics writ large - it did happen in the Nineteenth Century, even alongside "redemption" politics... a sustained Reconstruction might have created a larger space where such policies and politics could have worked out...

We will never know, of course.

Best,
 

TFSmith121

Banned
True, but the realities of the "peace"

But this time round they were a bit smarter.

They never tried a second secession, or anything else that threatened the substance of the Northern victory. Had they been that smart in 1861 there'd have been no war, and they could probably have kept slavery well into the20C.


True, but the realities of the "peace" for what amounted to a third of the population of the former rebel states tends to get ignored by some...

Best,
 
What if instead of letting the top Confederate leadership such as President Jefferson Davis, General Robert E. Lee, and others return to civilian life mercifully and without much consequence, they are instead tried as traitors to the Union, convicted, and subsequently executed or imprisoned for their actions? How does this cause post-war sentiment to change?

Tens of thousands take to the woods and bushwacking over half a continent and many decades of guerrilla war ensues. USA by 1900 is an utterly failed State.
 
Wirz had the bad luck to be a no-account Swiss immigrant.

Had he been a respectable planter, he'd have gotten off scot-free, as Seddon did.

There's probably more than a little truth to that.

Wirz seems not to have been a terribly nice fellow, but those who say he was a scapegoat aren't off the mark, either. Mistreatment aside, most of the starvation and disease happened simply because he wasn't getting any supplies.
 
Except it is fair to argue the Southern US WAS the theater of a low intensity conflict for the next century, complete with ethnic cleansing, extra-judicial execution (to the tens of thousands), political violence that reached the level of battle ("the battle of Colfax," for example), and what amounted to a military occupation - except by locally-raised militias, not "national" armies... And those being "occupied," of course, were not those who had rebelled - far from it.

Best,

I disagree, with respect, TF.

Because if THAT is your definition of "low intensity conflict," LOTS of places would qualify. If you are talking about Klan activities, then we must say that much of the Midwest was suffering from low intensity conflict, since the Klan was, if anything, even stronger and more active in Illinois, Indiana, etc. than it was in the Deep South in the early 20th century. And last I checked, the Midwest did not secede during the Civil War. To the extent that racial strife existed, it was in many ways a phenomenon distinct and independent from (albeit, of course, overlapping in certain cases) the Civil War and Southern national identity.

To me, the astonishing thing is not that we can find violent episodes like the Colfax Massacre, but rather that, after such a sanguinary and zealous civil war, there were so few of them, and such a relatively quick political reconciliation. This is not to sugarcoat Reconstruction, either in terms of what black freedmen suffered or how long it took the South to recover from wartime devastation (and memories lingered longer in the South, and were more bitter, no question). It's just that, relative to the aftermath of other major civil wars in modern and early modern history, our postwar was astonishingly mild.

More to the point, whatever low level violence existed in former Confederate States after May 1865, very little of it was directed at Union troops or federal officials, and that's what I am really keying on here. Compare this to the aftermath of Cromwell's victory in the English Civil War in all three kingdoms, the bloody aftermaths of the Monmouth and Jacobite Risings, or the guerrilla activity in South Africa after the conventional conflict wore down in the Boer War, or Ireland (pick your timeframe, any timeframe) for examples, just to look at the Anglo-Saxon world.

Had the Lincoln and Johnson Administrations opted for a far harsher policy, trying and executing a broad array of Confederate political and military leaders, with severe punishment of the entire plantar and middle classes, then you would see conflict much more intense, bitter, and bloody, and longer lasting - the South was a HUGE territory, with many remote areas in which guerrillas could hide and sustain themselves (unlike Scotland or Ireland or even South Africa). There simply were not enough people in the North willing to bear that burden; they wanted to get back to normalcy (even Thaddeus Stevens(!) was willing to serve as Jeff Davis's defense counsel at trial, pro bono, by 1867). That ended up being a tragedy for free blacks, one we greatly deplore today; but the truth is, there was no pleasant option open to the Union in the postwar. You can aim for total racial and political justice, at the price of long-term strife and something close to a police state to enforce it; or you can "let 'em up easy," and pay the price of leaving some unjust social and political structures intact for the time being. Either policy has certain real costs. Perhaps there was a way to make an effort to ensure more rights and opportunities for southern blacks without imposing a longterm police state with massive demographic changes - I sure wish there had been. But that did not happen, either.
 
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Think about how the British did with harsh measures in Ireland after the Easter Rising.

Hmm. How bad was it?

AKtually, there were PLENTY of people who had no interest in peace and reKonciliation, and were entirely unreluKtant about engaging in bloodletting, as they did for much of the next century...

Best,

Fixed it for you

If the Freedmen were unable to maintain their right to vote in the face of white opposition, why should they do any better at hanging on to any land they were given?

Which is why every single last established "black town" in the Old West was systematically destroyed by White vigilantes and state militias. You wouldn't have thought of Nebraska as a Confederate state, but when they first applied to be a US state, it was with a state constitution mandating Nebraska be the USA's first "All-White State". Congress and the Supreme Court told them where to shove it.

Except it is fair to argue the Southern US WAS the theater of a low intensity conflict for the next century, complete with ethnic cleansing, extra-judicial execution (to the tens of thousands (1)), political violence that reached the level of battle ("the battle of Colfax," for example), and what amounted to a military occupation - except by locally-raised militias, not "national" armies... And those being "occupied," of course, were not those who had rebelled - far from it.

Best,

1) Tens of thousands of extra-judicial executions?:confused:

Fusion politics writ large - it did happen in the Nineteenth Century, even alongside "redemption" politics... a sustained Reconstruction might have created a larger space where such policies and politics could have worked out...

We will never know, of course.

Best,

THis is why Rutherford B. Hayes is considered one of our very worst presidents. Pretty much below just about everybody except W, and at rock bottom, Buchanan.

Note that of the five worst presidents are included all of the four "stolen" presidencies.:rolleyes:

Tens of thousands take to the woods and bushwacking over half a continent and many decades of guerrilla war ensues. USA by 1900 is an utterly failed State.

I don't think there'd be much bushwacking on the West Coast, SW, NW, Midwest, NE, and Great Lakes regions. An "utterly failed state" conjures up the image of Somalia. As to the Deep South, if the South in general does this, the paradigm changes, and brings the full wrath of the North. If the South does not even give the semblance of co-operation, then its the most extreme outcome for Reconstruction after all.

There's probably more than a little truth to that.

Wirz seems not to have been a terribly nice fellow, but those who say he was a scapegoat aren't off the mark, either. Mistreatment aside, most of the starvation and disease happened simply because he wasn't getting any supplies.

He had the means to enable the prisoners to go on work parties to chop down trees to provide lumber for shelter, but he refused. He had the means to allow prisoners, slaves, even his own guards to collect safe drinking water upstream from the very river that ran right through the middle if the camp, but he refused. He had the offers from local farmers, that they wished to send food to the prisoners (it was a bumper crop in 1864, as Sherman's boys found to their delight), BUT HE REFUSED.

It was the deliberate policy of Seddon's to deliberately starve Union PoWs to the point where they would never be healthy enough to soldier again. While Southern soldiers exchanged were healthy enough to go right back into action. Its hardly any surprise if Union treatment of Southern prisoners got worse as the war went on. Tit-for-tat. As another example, German PoWs in WWII ate as well as GIs, until VE-Day and the death camps were liberated. Within a short time, the German PoWs were on a virtual vegetarian diet.:rolleyes:

Saying that Captain Wirz seems not to have been a terribly nice fellow does the greatest injustice to not terribly nice fellows everywhere.:rolleyes: At best, Wirz was a criminally incompetent total bastard. At worst, a genuine war criminal who earned every one of those thirteen steps.:mad: It's just a crying ass shame that Seddon wasn't there to join him in the necktie party.:(
 
Except it is fair to argue the Southern US WAS the theater of a low intensity conflict for the next century, complete with ethnic cleansing, extra-judicial execution (to the tens of thousands), political violence that reached the level of battle ("the battle of Colfax," for example), and what amounted to a military occupation - except by locally-raised militias, not "national" armies... And those being "occupied," of course, were not those who had rebelled - far from it.

Best,

Was that so different from normal?

From my recollection of Huckleberry Finn (yes, I know it's fiction, but its author grew up in those parts and knew whereof he wrote) local feuds quite often verged on a sort of low level civil war. Mid 19C America (esp the South and West) tolerated levels of violence that would be considered atrocious today.
 
Which is why every single last established "black town" in the Old West was systematically destroyed by White vigilantes and state militias. You wouldn't have thought of Nebraska as a Confederate state, but when they first applied to be a US state, it was with a state constitution mandating Nebraska be the USA's first "All-White State". Congress and the Supreme Court told them where to shove it.

This just goes to show what a bunch of thickos the Southern leaders were.

Had they not insisted on trying to ram slavery down the throats of local settlers, Kansas and Nebraska would have been Free States, but thoroughly racist ones, who would have been perfectly happy to send fugitive slaves back, and probably vote with the South, more often than not, in Congress. Lincoln would probably never have been elected, the next Chief Justice and his colleagues would have been similar to Taney and co, and Nebraska's law would almost certainly have been upheld.





THis is why Rutherford B. Hayes is considered one of our very worst presidents. Pretty much below just about everybody except W, and at rock bottom, Buchanan.

I'd have thought Hayes was one of the smarter ones. He made the South pay a price - a peaceful accession to the Presidency - for a concession which, given Congress' refusal to fund military force in the South, they could very soon have obtained for nothing.
 
1) Tens of thousands of extra-judicial executions?:confused:

Yeah. I don't know where that's coming from, either. I think that's an exaggeration (without making light of the killings that did occur).

I don't think there'd be much bushwacking on the West Coast, SW, NW, Midwest, NE, and Great Lakes regions. An "utterly failed state" conjures up the image of Somalia. As to the Deep South, if the South in general does this, the paradigm changes, and brings the full wrath of the North. If the South does not even give the semblance of co-operation, then its the most extreme outcome for Reconstruction after all.

I think I see where he's going on this. It would be a qualified "failed state." An analogy might be British rule in Ireland, which certainly by the early 20th century had become a failed state within a state, even if the United Kingdom remained a successful nation-state and great power otherwise. Southern Sudan leaps to mind. Other examples could be found.

But it would take positive, harsh measures by the North to bring that about in the first place, and there wasn't the stomach for that in the North in the spring and summer of 1865, especially after the wave of anger over Lincoln's assassination simmered back down. To make this personal, my ancestors (the ones already here) all fought for the Union, and at least a few were anti-slavery agitators. Reading through their correspondence at war's end, the ones who had survived just wanted to get back home and get the farms and businesses back up and running. The ones back home just wanted them back home. Most people were worn out. Nearly 400,000 boys in blue didn't come home, and lots of others came home sans limbs. It's hard to see how you sustain the political support for a massive long-term occupation, especially one that results in a smattering of War Department condolences going back home.

He had the means to enable the prisoners to go on work parties to chop down trees to provide lumber for shelter, but he refused. He had the means to allow prisoners, slaves, even his own guards to collect safe drinking water upstream from the very river that ran right through the middle if the camp, but he refused. He had the offers from local farmers, that they wished to send food to the prisoners (it was a bumper crop in 1864, as Sherman's boys found to their delight), BUT HE REFUSED.

It was the deliberate policy of Seddon's to deliberately starve Union PoWs to the point where they would never be healthy enough to soldier again. While Southern soldiers exchanged were healthy enough to go right back into action. Its hardly any surprise if Union treatment of Southern prisoners got worse as the war went on. Tit-for-tat. As another example, German PoWs in WWII ate as well as GIs, until VE-Day and the death camps were liberated. Within a short time, the German PoWs were on a virtual vegetarian diet.:rolleyes:

Saying that Captain Wirz seems not to have been a terribly nice fellow does the greatest injustice to not terribly nice fellows everywhere.:rolleyes: At best, Wirz was a criminally incompetent total bastard. At worst, a genuine war criminal who earned every one of those thirteen steps.:mad: It's just a crying ass shame that Seddon wasn't there to join him in the necktie party.:(

Setting aside that I am wry understatement sort of fellow, I will confess that I am not much of an expert on Wirz or Andersonville. I'm content to concede that he probably deserved to stretch rope. That said, there was, at the time, evidence that many thought he was a scapegoat, even in the North, and that's sentiment you have to account for and deal with.

I also don't disagree that Seddon (one of the worst of a pretty poor bunch of Confederate cabinet officials*) probably deserved hanging even more - which was, after all, where I was trying to go. The problem is that once you start hanging a Confederate cabinet minister, you've set the precedent that others can be hanged, too, and now it becomes a political exercise, one with political consequences. To take the example of postwar Japan (which had a much worse human rights track record than the CSA, espeically regarding POW's) in 1945-51, there's a consensus now that Hirohito deserved to have stood a war crimes trial, given the standards used in the Japanese war crimes trials. But Hirohito was let off, and he was not the only one let off, because Allied authorities prized stability in the postwar occupation more than they did bringing Hirohito and certain other Japanese leaders to justice. I am not defending letting Hirohito or Seddon walk, by the way; just saying that there was at least an arguable logic at work by U.S. political authorities in each case in deciding to do so.

* One wishes that Davis had been willing to put John C. Breckinridge in at War a whole lot sooner; he would have been a good deal more effective, which risked prolonging the war, but he was also a lot more humane, and much more willing to give up the war once it was obvious it was lost, too. But Davis picked Seddon, and repeatedly stuck by him, and only reluctantly let him go. Davis was, after all, largely his own Secretary of War. In this respect, if Seddon deserves to dance in the air, so does Davis. But we can see now that any desire to execute Davis dissipated pretty rapidly in the North, and not just because they feared making a martyr of him and driving lots of ex-Confederates into the hills.
 
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