Rhodesia also had a reasonable discernible Afrikaner population, that arrived with the earlier wave of British settlement (pre WW2). I don't know the figures, but I've heard it could have been anywhere between 5-20%. I'd assume they would be as likely to support Afrikaner political causes as the next Afrikaner.
WI: Rhodesia joins the Union of South Africa in 1922?
- Thread starter GeneralInTheShell
- Start date
Yeah, but it wasn't much bigger than 20%.
It is unlikely that any constituency had a majority Afrikaans population (this is speculation on my part though).
I don't think so.
Just because the blacks take over, doesn't mean you have to flee
And South Africa is full of white Zimbabweans who have came here in the past 20 to 30 years.
Their decision may also be influenced by the kind of support that they are given in emigrating.
Of course SA is full of Rhodesians all it took was driving across the border. Now that the ANC plans to just seize land from white famers that doesn't seem like a good bet. At least the ANC says it plans to pay for the land unlike Mugabe's war veterans.
But to you silly "eye roll" which African nation didn't expell or have 99% of its ethnic white population leave after majority rule? In almost every case the black majority taking over led to a removal of the European minority. Can you name one that hasn't followed that trend? Even South Africa has had about 800,000 to 1 million whites leave the country since the ANC took over. And you can expect that number to grow things get worse there. Which is most likely the reason many ethinc British South Africans, including the former Rhodesians, keep British passports.
Botswana, Namibia, South Africa, Swaziland, Tanzania, Kenya.
None of these countries 'expelled' their white populations.
And the ANC government will never seize white farmers land, they know which side their bread is buttered on.
And there has been a large number of whites who have left, but there are a number of factors of this, as many 'pull' as 'push' factors to be honest.
And there are a large number of white Europeans who have moved to South Africa, I can think of, off the top of my head, three Americans, four Britons, and a Swiss who now live in South Africa, and have moved here in the last ten years.
This thesis that SA is heading down the Zimbabwe route is getting very tired and very old.
And keeping an EU passport just makes sense, it makes travelling so much easier.
How would Bantustans be dealt with? Seems ad if they might favor making. More so long as they have no real industry, outside of a lack of labor laws in some cities set up just for the occasion, so there would be no real threat from the locals economically. Nysaland and North Rhodesia would make decent additions, with the Cape-to-Ciaro Railway be outrighted annexed or occupied. Might be troublesome if they combine in some confederation and swear loyalty to the Queen though. That is another issue that I may have missed. Is there still a monarchy?
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The Bantustans may well be butterflied away.
Also, the 1960 republican referendum (which might also be butterflied away), will definitely result in a win for the pro-monarchy side.
The additions of Northern Rhodesia and Nyasaland - interesting thoughts.
The additions of Botswana, Lesotho, and Swaziland are also all possible.
Their monarchies and the status of some as protectorates may cause some trouble though. What would the title of the head monarch be over the whole kicking caboodle.
I had not originally realized it in the past when I once read it, as with many bad fanfics, that it was a wank. A horribly executed one. I would call it Jewank but it coopts the entire African continent, as well as Yemen and some islands.
I thought some of the details to the timeline were ill conceived but it was a fairly good premise.
Anyway, this partricular idea shows promise. I'm waiting for the timeline.
Anyway, this partricular idea shows promise. I'm waiting for the timeline.
I agree actually. I like the ambition, but I did not find it believe-able at all.
That being said, it would be interesting to read a TL where there was a large Jewish settlement in British East Africa, along with the South Asian and majority Indigenous African population.
Just so long as they don't have the horrible issue of millions of people trying to convert. Truly the Jewish Israelis were in dire straits when that happened.
1.) So the ANC will never seize white owned farms? Never go the way of Mugabe's land reform? Let's see ANC plans on buying 30% of white owned farms, so far 90% of the taken farms are failures...hmm. Yet two years latter the ANC annouces "it has no choice but to speed up" land reform. The ANC Youth League calls for taking white owned land without payment, it also warns the Zim-style armed invasion might follow if this doesn't happen. Hmm...that doesn't look good.
http://articles.latimes.com/2010/nov/21/world/la-fg-south-africa-farms-20101121
http://mg.co.za/article/2012-06-28-sas-land-reform-policies-are-about-to-get-heavier/
http://allafrica.com/stories/201206081042.html
http://mg.co.za/article/2012-06-05-ancyl-land-reform/
2) Wow! Eight people gained... Let's see I know two Rhodesians, eight British South Africans and 1 Dutch South African that all live in the US. That's 11 to your 8 so I win...
3) I never said modern SA was going down the same road as Rhodesia. I said 1960's white Kenyans wouldn't be anymore likely to move to a larger SA than they were in OTL. But then again the NGO Genocide Watch seems to think the warning signs of a possible genicide can be found in SA so who knows.
4) Oh...sure that's the reason: easy of travel. I guess thats why President Zuma called the Afrikaners the only true South African whites because most of them only have a SA passport. He must have a problem with "easy travel".
Actually my mother had quite a few family members who living in Kenya in 50's, two of her uncles and their children were out there after the war. One uncle and his kids moved to Rhodesia in 1961 in the run up to independence and one stayed. They've both since died but the branch who stayed in Kenya are still mostly there and are doing well, they have a successful safari business and a 2000 acre flower farm, if you buy a rose in Britain during winter it might well be from them. The branch who moved to Rhodesia haven't fared so well, one of my mother's cousins died the Bush War and the rest of them are scattered from Durban to Cardiff to Auckland. So yes white's did leave Kenya for other white minority states at independence, though at least in this case it ended badly for them.
Four party system's are normally quite hard to sustain under FPTP but in this case all four parties would have clear bases of support where they could reliably get elected. The United Party would be in serious danger of being "squeezed" between the Progressive's on one side and the right-wing parties on the other, but equally it could be the dominant party due to the breadth of it's support and it's domination of the centre ground. In fact you could see it start out dominant and then get squeezed as maintaining white minority rule becomes more stressful and difficult.
1.) So the ANC will never seize white owned farms? Never go the way of Mugabe's land reform? Let's see ANC plans on buying 30% of white owned farms, so far 90% of the taken farms are failures...hmm. Yet two years latter the ANC annouces "it has no choice but to speed up" land reform. The ANC Youth League calls for taking white owned land without payment, it also warns the Zim-style armed invasion might follow if this doesn't happen. Hmm...that doesn't look good.
http://articles.latimes.com/2010/nov/21/world/la-fg-south-africa-farms-20101121
http://mg.co.za/article/2012-06-28-sas-land-reform-policies-are-about-to-get-heavier/
http://allafrica.com/stories/201206081042.html
http://mg.co.za/article/2012-06-05-ancyl-land-reform/
2) Wow! Eight people gained... Let's see I know two Rhodesians, eight British South Africans and 1 Dutch South African that all live in the US. That's 11 to your 8 so I win...
3) I never said modern SA was going down the same road as Rhodesia. I said 1960's white Kenyans wouldn't be anymore likely to move to a larger SA than they were in OTL. But then again the NGO Genocide Watch seems to think the warning signs of a possible genicide can be found in SA so who knows.
4) Oh...sure that's the reason: easy of travel. I guess thats why President Zuma called the Afrikaners the only true South African whites because most of them only have a SA passport. He must have a problem with "easy travel".
1. None of these are official ANC policy. They are just statements. The ANCYL has already said a number of stupid things, nobody says this will become policy.
And Land Affairs is such a mess, the state has land it doesn't even know about. That needs to be sorted out first.
And the Constitution will have to be changed as well, private property rights are protected in the Constitution.
2. I never said there has not been an outflow of whites, but I was making the point that people still move to SA, with all our problems.
3. OK, you just quoted Genocide Watch. All I can say is
The guy who runs it was recently in South Africa, and he was feted by right-wing morons. And anyway, by the standards of Genocide Watch, apartheid was genocide, but you won't hear them say that.
4. Guy, if I emigrated, I will still keep my passport. Just because you have a foreign passport doesn't mean that you are planning on getting the next plane to Perth or whatever.
We would also have some nationalist African movements. The ANC already exists (having been formed in 1912) so it would be interesting to speculate what would happen with them.
Will ZANU and ZAPU analogues form, or will they be under a broad ANC umbrella?
Poor things.
I'd wonder if there are any timelines where Jewish migrants form a sustained majority in a specific geographic area, enough that they can form their own province or canton, within a British colony or settler state. Sort of like say where I'm from, where my province's capital (Dunedin) was a Free Church planned settlement.
Same with much of the Eastern Seaboard. A thought pops into my head, though. What if large amounts of Malays and Indians imported into Africa as workers, under duress or otherwise, intermarried substantially with some of the differing groups in Rhodesia or other parts of the region? There could possibly be Bengali, Pashtun, Malay, Dravidian, and Sindhi autonomous regions or cities, perhaps even semi unofficial colonies. Unrealistic, of course, though might be interesting in a timeline.
Yeah, not likely in this scenario.
But, Durban in South Africa has a very strong South Asian influence, and the influence of Islam on South Africa and South African history (due to first Malays then South Asians) is often understated.