What if the British had won the Battle of Yorktown 1781?

hmm... WI the English won the naval battle against the French, so the French fleet couldn't blockade Yorktown? That wouldn't win the battle, but it would allow Cornwallis to escape... how'd that affect the war?

Dave

There was a short story in one of the ‘what if’ books on this scenario. Had John Paul Jones, as a result of a chance encounter during his childhood, as a British captain. By chance getting a message about the movement he managed to assemble a force of 3-4 SOL and some lighter units and defend the entrance to the bay until the main British forces under Hood [if I recall correctly] arrives and sinks the rest of the French fleet.

It might, as Darkling mentioned, have changed the outcome of the entire war. At the very least the British will have received a big boost, along with the loyalists and waivers while the French and rebels would have been disheartened. Especially if a good proportion of the French and American troops are lost as a result, since I think they were with the fleet in transporters. The lost of the bulk of the French fleet in the region would expose the French Caribbean colonies to attack and coupled with the cost of replacing the fleet might persuade them to make peace.

Steve
 
My point was that by now there was a sufficiently large proportion of colonial public opinion that they're probably not going to go back to being colonies even if there's a total British victory.

Well as I said the rebellion was at an all time low public opinion wise, there was an increasing desire to just get back to trading and planting crops.

Probably a large percentage of the colonial population would flee westward and establish some sort of "free" state in the Ohio country etc.

They would have to beat the Indians off and resist anything the British sent after them whilst being entirely dependent on the Britsih for access to the outside world.

Why flee your land unless you have too?
 
Dean_the_Young

While I agree with the vast majority of what you say I'm puzzled by those two bits?

Quite so. Nearly every single passive inhabitant and a number of the loyalists in North America will see that those loud Revolutionaries really did know what they were talking about when they said that Britain doesn't give two damns about the colonist's life and liberty. And hey, did you hear about that other small town? I hear The Butcher burned it to the ground, after the Red Coats grabbed and raped the women after killing the men and boys before them...

I know the rebels lied a LOT about alleged atrocities, while committing a lot themselves. However do you think they would really get away with BS like this? That's verging on the sort of neo-Nazi tripe you got in Gibson's Patriot garbage. [On the other hand they got away with so much historically.:(]

Because not only do you have a bunch of angry Irish isle, you have an angry colonial population, with political terrorism rife throughout the colonies?

The extremists were already involved in a lot of terrorism. Don't take my word for it, just check what the CIA says on the issue.;) I agree an atrocity such been suggested would alienate some but far more were influenced by self interest or fear. Such an action at Yorktown would probably cause more discontent in Britain than in a rebel group already committed to a dirty war.

Steve
 

67th Tigers

Banned
I know the rebels lied a LOT about alleged atrocities, while committing a lot themselves. However do you think they would really get away with BS like this? That's verging on the sort of neo-Nazi tripe you got in Gibson's Patriot garbage. [On the other hand they got away with so much historically.:(]

Steve

If you really want to find a truly murderous b*****d, the best place to look is Harry "Light Horse" Lee III (RE Lees father). He murdered his way through the Virginia backcountry and the Carolinas, putting down any loyalist sentiment by the sword (literally, they'd kill the family and burn the property of anyone who joined the Crown forces). He was very effective at silencing the loyalists in the Southern campaign.

It's been commented that in "The Patriot" they simply reversed the characters of the two leads (a thinly veiled Tartleton and Lee).
 
Why would a British naval victory have transformed British opinion?

After all, they never punished the commander who effectively lost the war, as he honored all the rules and regulations of the RN and only lost the war.

Bear in mind that Yorktown was the sole time and place in the ARW where the RN actually lost control of the seas so it shouldn't be that hard to rewrite naval affairs but the exceptionality of the incident also means it won't mean much to opinion.

On the other hand, the British army escaping back to NYC effectively means that the American and French forces deploy in sufficient strength back to the north while a strong contingent destroys the British/Loyalist position in the South. Nor would it take a large force to further damage the British position around the Great Lakes. So after three years(1779-1781) and immense cost the British have lost Newport(Rhode Island) and most of Long Island and gained nothing.


Bear in mind that the absurd idea of the British sneak attack still faces a Franco-American army more than double their own size, not to mention the very presence of the French leading to obviously results.

1) Cornwallis wins against all the odds.

M'sr, if Cornwallis and all of his officers and men are not surrendered AND a number of American and French prisoners equal to the dead released, along with any captives taken, 8000 English prisoners in French/American hands shall be put to death, watching for the proper ratio of officers, of course.​
2) Cornwallis loses the battle.

M'sr, while we regret the execution of Lord Cornwallis, most of his staff and all American Loyalists the sheer unacceptability of assaults under the white flag is obvious. Additionally, if we are to credit England with respect for tradition and international accord the release of a number of officers and enlisted equivalent to the dead must take place at once.​
 
Why would a British naval victory have transformed British opinion?

It depends upon the size of the victory.

The British love nothing more than a naval victory after all.

If the victory is decisive it could cripple the French in the western hemisphere and open the way towards an attack on their Caribbean holdings or force them to move enough ships to weaken the siege of Gibraltar.

On the other hand, the British army escaping back to NYC effectively means that the American and French forces deploy in sufficient strength back to the north while a strong contingent destroys the British/Loyalist position in the South.

The danger is that the British beat them back to NY and assault the besieging forces which were already massively under manned and could have been taken by Clinton's available forces.

He can also just keep them supplied and even reinforce them and make the Americans bleed in an attempt to take the position.

You seem to think that the war was lost the moment Washington headed south which is a dubious idea otherwise he would have headed south whether the British were trapped or not and retaken the South in OTL.

Instead he immediately went back to watching the British at NY and I see little reason for him to change his mind when there are 8,000 extra troops at new York.

The question that presents itself is what the Britsih do with those 8,000 troops.

They could send them south and chase Greene back into Virginia forever, they could take them to NY and lift the siege or just let them rot, they could retake Philidelphia as Clinton was discussing.

8,000 troops is 60% of all the Continental army at this point - it isn't a force to be sniffed at.

The French aren't going to be interested in heading South and I see little reason to assume forces do get sent south when they didn't in OTL when a smaller British force was sitting in New York.

Nor would it take a large force to further damage the British position around the Great Lakes.

But again - such a force wasn't sent in OTL even when it would have been useful in a possible peace conference.

So after three years(1779-1781) and immense cost the British have lost Newport(Rhode Island) and most of Long Island and gained nothing.

But if they have beaten a French fleet then they have forced the French closer to wanting to drop out of the war.

If the French do go then the Americans lose by default.

M'sr, if Cornwallis and all of his officers and men are not surrendered AND a number of American and French prisoners equal to the dead released, along with any captives taken, 8000 English prisoners in French/American hands shall be put to death, watching for the proper ratio of officers, of course.​

Whilst the idea is absurd the British can just make it clear they would return the favour.

It is also worth pointing out that the British didn't execute American prisoners when congress broke the convention and kept the Saratoga army, the Americans don't have a lot of room to complain about broken surrender terms.
 
The idea isn't very realistic and would almost certainly not happen.. but I have to say I disagree with the majority of people in the thread.

I think people are massively overstating the reaction to this act of dishonour. It would certainly stain the reputation of Cornwallis. If he wins (frankly unlikely) he is however not likely to just be executed. He would probably be discharged (depending how good he was at playing politics.. he might just be moved somewhere else) and people might call for more.. but people tend not to go about executing winners. If he fails.. then odds are he will die (although being immediately executed after the battle.. kind of questions just how much people care about "honour" or being "humane") on the field.

Also this idea of honour. Britain would be considered a rogue nation? For the actions of a single general in a distant land? When there are how many other atrocities which could be pointed at? Hardly. The British Government would officially deny any support for the actions but is hardly going to say in the case of victory *sorry those we are at war with, we broke the rules, Cornwallis take your army and surrender immediately to the rebels!*. Consider the French reaction to the battle of Fort William Henry and the subsequent massacre. While the government deplored the actions of the natives.. they didn't exactly hand back the fort. Sure its not a perfect analogy, but if the British are handed a prize they are not going to surrender it because of "honour". Its akin to saying the British (or anyone else) could never break a treaty because no one would ever accept them at their word in the future. Except ofcourse the British (and everyone else) did break treaties whenever it was in their interest to do so.

Odds are the war continues and the thin veil of civilisation concerning war slips a bit more, as it would do in the coming centuries of OTL.
 
Since the British government was teetering and in fact collapsed after the news of Yorktown one suspects that the Whigs would have made hay out of one of Lord North's generals blatantly violating the laws of war. Assuming Cornwallis and his army even survive the act.


Earling, a valid point except that the French claim of being unable to control the Native Americans was sufficiently plausible that the English also used it as late as the War of 1812. No one is going to believe that an English general and lord couldn't control English troops.


Darkling, and if it is decisive enough then one has to explain why a much larger French fleet was even on the spot, why the British were also there in sufficient force to win and what's going on elsewhere in the world while dozens of British SOLs and frigates are off Yorktown.

8000 men plus the forces under Clinton weren't even sufficient to hold all of Long Island or Newport and I don't have Washington sending all his forces south, merely sufficient of the Franco-American forces to retake the entire south. 5000 would probably be not only sufficient but excessive.

Not only is the likelihood of France dropping out unlikely, the likelihood of the US losing when the British are holding out in NYC and failing in the south is exceedingly small, given that the British government is already toppling and an evacuation of Yorktown is an admission that the policy of the last three years had failed.

The concept of the British army or government encouraging sneak attacks during the surrender or reprisal killings of POWs doesn't go over very well, and one wonders how the new government in 1782 would have acted. As to why the British would murder American POWs over a failure to release(not kill) POWs in a timely fashion, and noting that the nearly 6000 Brunswickers were not wanted at home by their lord due to concerns over further recruitment...
 
While The Brittish wanted very much and tried very hard to hold the 13 American Colonies, they were not going to try to hold them at any cost, and the cost of holding them was just more than England was able to pay.

Had England done what is suggested in the opening post they might have been able to hold the 13 American Colonies for some time longer. But at what cost? Eventually England would have lost them anyway.

The cost of doing what is suggested in the opening post in terms of what it would have done to England's reputation and her ability to deal with the rest of the world, trying to govern an even angrier more violent and determined American population, was far too high to justify.
 
Darkling, and if it is decisive enough then one has to explain why a much larger French fleet was even on the spot, why the British were also there in sufficient force to win and what's going on elsewhere in the world while dozens of British SOLs and frigates are off Yorktown.

I think you are over estimating the size of victory needed.

The French had 63 SOLs in 1779 (I have seen 80 quoted for what I believe to have been their max strength by 83), 24 were at Yorktown (and later 32 - if the British defeat them in detail which seems the most likely course they could be waiting for the second force).

With those facts in hand it should be easy to see that a decisive victory was possible.

A British victory taking out that fleet (or even just half) would give the British numerical superiority over their enemies (instead of inferiority), the French would have to withdraw ships from somewhere.

Meanwhile the Britsih have more ships to deploy.

8000 men plus the forces under Clinton weren't even sufficient to hold all of Long Island or Newport

So 19,000 men isn't enough to hold off the less than 3,500 Americans who were left in New York by Washington.

I disagree.

and I don't have Washington sending all his forces south, merely sufficient of the Franco-American forces to retake the entire south. 5000 would probably be not only sufficient but excessive.

That would be the entire French contingent that had come south and 1,000 of Washington's continental army (and he only brought 2,500 south with him).

Meaning the maximum he could place outside New York would be 5,000, leaving them outnumber by almost 4 to 1.

You also have to address (which you seem to have missed in my post) why this didn't happen in OTL, the answer is that he needed the forces to guard New York even without Clinton having an extra 8,000 men.

If the French navy does retreat from the western hemisphere then the fall of Newport is a forgone conclusion.

Not only is the likelihood of France dropping out unlikely, the likelihood of the US losing when the British are holding out in NYC and failing in the south is exceedingly small, given that the British government is already toppling and an evacuation of Yorktown is an admission that the policy of the last three years had failed.

Now here you have a point but an evacuation form Yorktown (assuming the British do evacuate and not reinforce the army to be greater than that besieging it) and a naval victory over the French can easily be seen as a positive depending upon the scale of the victory.

In any case, an evacuation isn't as bad as losing an entire army and as long as that army is put to use again fairly quickly victories can be won to buy the government time.

It took until February 27th for the government to lose - by 19 votes.

So three months after the news of the loss of an entire army the government lost a vote by 19, the fact that it isn't a lost army would quite possibly quash such a vote, the naval victory almost certainly would and any victories in the intervening 3 months would buy the government time.

Looking back on the idea of an evacuation it must be point out that without the French siege train (which came in on the ships with Barras, including 3,500 troops from Newport leaving it dangerously naked).

The Americans are going to have about 10,000 troops (including the French contingent), with no siege engineers nor heavy guns.

They would be lucky to take Cornwallis alone never mind defeat him if he got reinforced.

The concept of the British army or government encouraging sneak attacks during the surrender or reprisal killings of POWs doesn't go over very well, and one wonders how the new government in 1782 would have acted.

Presuppose a new government.

You don't seem to be grasping the huge difference between a defeat and loss of 8,000 men and that force being withdrawn to fight again elsewhere.

As to why the British would murder American POWs over a failure to release(not kill) POWs in a timely fashion, and noting that the nearly 6000 Brunswickers were not wanted at home by their lord due to concerns over further recruitment...

Well they weren't POWs for a start, the convention army didn't surrender but merely agreed to return to Britain.

Congress then imprisoned them after they had been disarmed, not quite killing them but it still demonstrates the Americans had little room to complain about breeches of terms reached on the field of battle.
 
it's interesting to speculate on what would happen if the ARW had went on. I think the parallels to Vietnam are noteworthy here. It's true the Brits vastly outnumbered Washington's army.... but Washington is not going to seek a head on attack against the Brits entrenched in NYC. He will continue to use evasive semi-guerrilla tactics, seeking small engagements his army can win.
It's also true that Washington did lose most of the battles he was in... but if you read a history of the war, it's apparent that only the first ones were his own fault; call it a learning process. Later on, the battles were lost not by him, but by his subordinates Gates and Charles Lee. By the time of Yorktown, these two were gone. If the war had gone on, Washington's sub-commanders would have been Morgan, Greene, and Hamilton... that's a solid group of very competent officers.
Basically, if the war had gone on, it would have been a war of small battles, maneuver... basically, a continual running wound for the Brits. The south is clear of the enemy, so the war would continue in the north. It would all come down to the question if the Brits could corner and shatter Washington's army... nothing else would win the war. They might be able to do it.. or they might not (Washington was rather canny at escaping when the Brits gathered in force). If they fail to corner him, I'd say the war will be lost when the British will to continue the war evaporates (as it was already). If they do corner him and shatter his army, then they will likely win the war, although they will have to launch some punitive expeditions in various places (especially the South) to get the word across....
 
The South wasn't clear of the enemy, Greene had great difficulty defeating the isolated British forts and positions.

Claiming Yorktown as a victory for Washington is stretching things a bit, he didn't actually have to do anything other than agree to the French plan to march there (and he almost didn't do that).

As for this guerilla idea, that isn't how Washington operated with his army, he kept it is being to prevent the British blanketing the colonies and resuming control.

If his army is no longer a concentrated threat in being he loses (and this idea is the key accolade for Washington).

Washington's army was racked with mutiny and getting smaller year on year, he is unlikely to win a war to the last coin.

Once he can no longer pose a credible threat beyond his immediate area the Britsih herd him somewhere, pin him down and disperse the rest of their forces a colony at a time and restore royal government.

The bulk of the populace would be happy to get back to making money and not having Washington's army stealing form them (or giving them continental currency at gunpoint which amounted to the same thing).
 
a bit simplistic there. Washington didn't use real guerrilla tactics (that's why I said semi-guerrilla), but he did use maneuverability and avoided the largest Brit forces in the field. The south wasn't completely clear, but with Cornwallis' army gone, there isn't much left... Greene has effective control over the area. As for foraging... the Brits did it more than the colonials did, and behaved rather badly in a lot of places too... their behavior cost them a lot of good will in Philadelphia and other places. Washington's army at the time of Yorktown wasn't racked with mutiny, and with Cornwallis forced into a rather humiliating evacuation, it wasn't likely to be either. Funding was a constant problem, but with the French on board, it became less so, although it never did completely go away. And by the time of Yorktown, the bulk of the population was on the rebel side, not indifferent and waiting for the war to end... you'd have to go back several years to get that kind of situation...
 
a bit simplistic there. Washington didn't use real guerrilla tactics (that's why I said semi-guerrilla), but he did use maneuverability and avoided the largest Brit forces in the field.

The entire New York campaign saw him going head to head with the main British force.

Then we have Brandywine, Germantown, Whitemarsh and Monmouth.

In other words every battle of the Philidelphia campaign Washington commanded, all but one had 10,000+ on each side, the exception being Germantown where the Britsih only had 8,000.

After that we have nothing else until Yorktown, except Washington besieging the main British force and planning to attack them there.

The only time Washington displayed what you are talking about is Trenton and Princeton which the British left open because their main force was withdrawn a few hundred miles from Washington.

Washington by and large was conventional in meeting his enemy head on in the field except it was quite happy to sit back inactively as well.

A number of times he would have been brought to destruction because of his willingness to stand and fight if Howe had been willing to press matters to a conclusion (Brandywine being a classic example).


The south wasn't completely clear, but with Cornwallis' army gone, there isn't much left... Greene has effective control over the area.

True, but he still couldn't oust the British from their posts (he lost at Eutaw Springs and Hobkirk's hill despite having the advantage in men 1,500 to 900 in once instance) - those 8,000 troops could easily go south and send Greene running back into Virginia.

Even if they don't Greene's army is tied down because if he leaves the Britsih can extend influence from their posts.

As for foraging... the Brits did it more than the colonials did,

That is going to require proof.

and behaved rather badly in a lot of places too... their behavior cost them a lot of good will in Philadelphia and other places.

For my recollection the farmers around Philidelphia were quite happy to sell to the Britsih because the British had gold and not continental script.

Continental script was so unliked that congress had to empower Washington to forcible take what he wanted whether the populace was willing to exchange it for continental currency or not.

Washington's army at the time of Yorktown wasn't racked with mutiny,

No the mutinies came in the winter when troops stood about freezing with little in the way of supplies or clothing.

and with Cornwallis forced into a rather humiliating evacuation, it wasn't likely to be either.

Until winter.

Funding was a constant problem, but with the French on board, it became less so, although it never did completely go away.

Congress had to reduce the size of the army in 1780 because they couldn't afford it any more, even with the French on board.

And the problem comes in when the French can''t afford it any more or decide to drop out.

They had to borrow the money for Yorktown form the Spanish who had to take up public subscription in Havana.

And by the time of Yorktown, the bulk of the population was on the rebel side, not indifferent and waiting for the war to end... you'd have to go back several years to get that kind of situation...

This assumes the populace wasn't vulnerable to war weariness.

As "A few bloody noses" puts it "the vast majority of Americans, [...] hankered after an end to plunder and scavenging for supplies, the return to the rule of law, and the restoration of sound finance for a land where American paper money was almost worthless, inflation raged, goods continued to be seized, and the cause itself faced bankruptcy."

"The cause of independence was probably never less popular than in the spring of 1781".

I would say the mutinies over the winter proved this (the troops had signed on for three years and were fed up with the war - in the end six regiments were discharged entirely, how long before more troops decide they have had enough?) as did the fact that new recruits weren't really appearing any more and the army had dwindled to 13,000 (having lost a net 8,000 over the previous year, 6,000 the year before, 5,000 the year before and 2,000 before that).
A clear pattern is established of diminishing interest in signing up to the army.


Washington certainly doesn't seem to have think the British had already lost,

"We must not despair. The game is yet in our hands, a cloud may pass over us, individuals may be ruined, and the country at large, or particular states, undergo temporary stress” before victory - this was written just a few months before Yorktown.

If the French get a kick to the groin and are forced to abandon the North American coast then Washington would have believed in his own mind that he couldn't win since he said

""Instead of having the regiments completed agreeable to the requisitions of Congress, scarce any state in the union has at this hour one eighth part of its quota in the field, and there is little prospect of ever getting more than half. In a word, instead of having any thing in readiness to take the field, we have nothing; and, instead of having the prospect of a glorious offensive campaign before us, we have a bewildered and gloomy prospect of a defensive one; unless we should receive a powerful aid of ships, troops, and money, from our generous allies, and these at present are too contingent to build upon."

Admitting he isn't going to get those ships would be a big blow.

As far as public opinion is concerned, if the French lose a major naval battle and the British follow up with taking Newport/ destroying Westpoint/ returning to the South (or all of the above) I think public opinion in the colonies will begin to crack.

Should the French withdraw then it is almost certain to be a PR disaster for the rebels.

The troops themselves aren't going to be happy if they march south to no effect and then are forced to march north again, there would certainly be trouble over the winter again.
 
Guys

I think we now have about 3 different scenarios under discussion.

a) The initial idea of a backstab by Cornwallis while pretending to surrender. Highly unlikely to be attempted or even more to succeed.

b) The idea of the French naval forces being defeated at Yorktown, meaning Cornwallis and the army can re-deploy. [Could be either to New York or to elsewhere in the south. The latter would really complicate matters for Washington.]

c) The war continuing after the historical surrender at Yorktown.

With a) then things are very complicated. Would depend on how the various groups respond to the changed circumstances and how big the impact would be of the backstab. If the Franco-American force is largely destroyed and its leaders dead or captured then while there will be a burst of anger there will also be serious problems maintaining the rebel position. It could however undermine the British position as they would have shown themselves to be no better than the rebels claimed and would very likely strengthen the determination of the French.

With b) then the rebellion is likely to die. The loss of naval superiority, even if it didn't sap the French will to continue would greatly strength the British position. Loyalists would be boosted in moral and the restored flexibility in being able to move forces about would make things very difficult for Washington. He either has to continue operating in the south, leaving the central colonies very exposed, or heading north and leaving Cornwallis dominant in the south.

For c) its a matter of staying power. Britain and France still have a lot of capacity to continue but who will lose interest 1st. Historically shortly after the defeat at Yorktown Britain won a naval victory which boosted the position markedly and exposed the French islands. However with the loss of so many loyalists at Yorktown the cause had taken a big blow. Britain has more to fight for than France but would that be enough. As Darkling said the rebels, other than as a guerrilla force, which would deeply alienate the population, are a spent force without continued Franco-Spanish aid. You might get some division such as occurred to a degree but more evenly spread between the rebels and loyalists.

Steve
 
Dean_the_Young

While I agree with the vast majority of what you say I'm puzzled by those two bits?



I know the rebels lied a LOT about alleged atrocities, while committing a lot themselves. However do you think they would really get away with BS like this? That's verging on the sort of neo-Nazi tripe you got in Gibson's Patriot garbage. [On the other hand they got away with so much historically.:(]
Except that this would be an especially news-worthy event. A supposedly honorable officer violating the unwritten rules of warfare? Witnesses and speakers from not only the Americans and the French, but also assuredly a number of dissafected British soldiers and officers?

When even the British are in an uproar over an event, it's going to be believed.

The extremists were already involved in a lot of terrorism. Don't take my word for it, just check what the CIA says on the issue.;) I agree an atrocity such been suggested would alienate some but far more were influenced by self interest or fear. Such an action at Yorktown would probably cause more discontent in Britain than in a rebel group already committed to a dirty war.

Steve

Oh, I do know. And I even agree with you, shockingly enough. I'm just saying that the Sons of Liberty and other such groups would receive a massive boost in popular support, such as would make them a royal's pain in the ass even should the Revolution be stomped.
 
With the scenario WitchHunterGeneral described, the war would most likely continue on, even with Washington's main army destroyed, but the difference will be it would be the level of carnage would be bumped up a few more notches. True, a great many patriots would be cowed, but those who remain would be frenzied to even greater levels of resistance, and be more willing to resort to more treacherous means.

However, I don't think Britain's reputation will be as severely tarnished as Dean the Young described. Certainly, it would be one of the largest act of treachery to date, but treacheries were indeed committed by both sides, and though there will be consternation from the part of the monarchs, and provoke radical elements within Europe, most Europeans really didn't care what was happening in far-off North America.

However, as Dean said, the reaction would be more pronounced in the Colonies, which is more important.

Certainly, a great deal many colonists would be cowed, yet those who remain would be spurred onto greater levels of resistences, and there would be enough of them to ensure that the colonies remain in a state of chaos for an indefinitely long time. They would not be shy in committing acts just as treacherous as those Cornwallis had committed.

To the loyalists, they might very well stay loyal, yet they will be more troubled by their association with the British, and not give as much tribute or food to the soldiers. Some might even join the Revolutionary Cause. And considering the American tendency for exaggeration, the revolutionary propagandists will spread the story like wildfire. Cornwallis will be viewed as a demon in flesh, the one who snatched liberty away through underhanded means. In terms of recruitment, after a piece of treachery like this, there will be a good deal of colonists would would want revenge against Cornwallis, thereby solving the recruiting problem, and I'm pretty sure the French would see it in their best interest to keep the Rebellion going, and pay for part of their salaries.

If you think I'm lying, that a piece of Cornwallis treachery wouldn't galanize resistence, remember what happened to that Jesus fellow?

As the level of carnage increases, the level of morale within the ranks of the British troops is going to drop; no sane, civilized man would want to be posted in the Colonies. Like in Vietnam, the British populace will see the war as increasingly unpopular, and pressure will mount on the government.

Even in the worst case scenario, in which Washington's army is completely destroyed, that Cornwallis won through conventional means and the Continental Congress hung from the gallows, the British colonies would have to maintain a huge occupation force against a restive countryside. People will remember that they had taken up arms against the British and had held out for six-seven years, and things just aren't going to go back to the way they were, too much blood has been spilled to turn back from the path. The Americans themselves are also individualistic in a general sense, and this could mean that its only a matter of time before they get ideas about independance again and a second revolution breaks out, perhaps while Britain is too busy dealing with some type of big European conflaguration.
Think of it this way, if the US had invaded and taken over North Vietnam during the Vietnam War (assuming they would be able to do this without reaction from the Chinese or Russians), that would not have stopped resistence. Like in Vietnam, the colonists wanted to be independant. If they hadn't would there have been six years of fighting until Cornwallis' treachery. Even if there were no more outright fighting, the amount of tax revenue the British would gotten from the Americans would hardly be enough to cover all the costs that would come with maintaining it. The Colonies would be too big, too populous, too far away and too restive to hold down, and sooner or later the British are going to feel the pinch and grant the Americans their independance.

Had the British tried to keep the colonists down for much longer, they might have lost so much by the way of finances that it might have provoked a violent reaction within Britain itself. For those who doubt me, look at what happened to France? One of the main reasons for that revolution was because of the weakening of the ancien regime because of the finances spent propping up the Americans in the Revolutionary War. Though it sounds ASB, and you're free to disagree with me, the same could have happened to Britain.

In the long run, a long, low-level indefinitely long quagmire in America would be worse for Britain. If the British had spent all their money keeping the lid on America, how do they finance whatever large-scale European conflict they'll face? That might also mean the British Empire as a whole might be a lot smaller, considering how much they need to spend on America. Instead of being a uber-superpower, as WitchHunter suggests, Britain might be so financially drained from holding down America they might be on the same level as Portugal.

With all the money gone into the American black hole, how would the Britsh power the industrial revolution? How would they be able to maintain colonies on India, Australia, South Africa etc,? The westward expansion of America would be a lot slower and the continental US itself a whole lot less developed. The American colony might still well be stuck on the Mississippi, with only isolated settlements on the Pacific Coast. Think of what happened to Spain, and her colonies? They had a Latin American Empire for 300 years, but didn't have the money to develop it properly. Look how poor Latin America is now? The other reason is that fewer people would want to settle in America, and it would attract much less foreign investment, considering the amount of unrest it has.

Overall, I think it was better on the long run that Britain gave up America when they did. With America off their hands, the British were able to colonize elsewhere and have the largest Empire ever created, and the United States, left to manage its own affairs, became the powerhouse that it is today, along with being a British ally.
 
Except that this would be an especially news-worthy event. A supposedly honorable officer violating the unwritten rules of warfare? Witnesses and speakers from not only the Americans and the French, but also assuredly a number of dissafected British soldiers and officers?

When even the British are in an uproar over an event, it's going to be believed.



Oh, I do know. And I even agree with you, shockingly enough. I'm just saying that the Sons of Liberty and other such groups would receive a massive boost in popular support, such as would make them a royal's pain in the ass even should the Revolution be stomped.

Dean

Good points. As you say its what's believed and that fact there would be a lot of discontent in the British side about Cornwallis's action under this scenario would make it a big propaganda coup for the rebels, both in itself and because it will make other things they say more believable and the British case weaker.

Steve
 
With the scenario WitchHunterGeneral described, the war would most likely continue on, even with Washington's main army destroyed, but the difference will be it would be the level of carnage would be bumped up a few more notches. True, a great many patriots would be cowed, but those who remain would be frenzied to even greater levels of resistance, and be more willing to resort to more treacherous means.

However, I don't think Britain's reputation will be as severely tarnished as Dean the Young described. Certainly, it would be one of the largest act of treachery to date, but treacheries were indeed committed by both sides, and though there will be consternation from the part of the monarchs, and provoke radical elements within Europe, most Europeans really didn't care what was happening in far-off North America.

However, as Dean said, the reaction would be more pronounced in the Colonies, which is more important.

Certainly, a great deal many colonists would be cowed, yet those who remain would be spurred onto greater levels of resistences, and there would be enough of them to ensure that the colonies remain in a state of chaos for an indefinitely long time. They would not be shy in committing acts just as treacherous as those Cornwallis had committed.

To the loyalists, they might very well stay loyal, yet they will be more troubled by their association with the British, and not give as much tribute or food to the soldiers. Some might even join the Revolutionary Cause. And considering the American tendency for exaggeration, the revolutionary propagandists will spread the story like wildfire. Cornwallis will be viewed as a demon in flesh, the one who snatched liberty away through underhanded means. In terms of recruitment, after a piece of treachery like this, there will be a good deal of colonists would would want revenge against Cornwallis, thereby solving the recruiting problem, and I'm pretty sure the French would see it in their best interest to keep the Rebellion going, and pay for part of their salaries.

If you think I'm lying, that a piece of Cornwallis treachery wouldn't galanize resistence, remember what happened to that Jesus fellow?

As the level of carnage increases, the level of morale within the ranks of the British troops is going to drop; no sane, civilized man would want to be posted in the Colonies. Like in Vietnam, the British populace will see the war as increasingly unpopular, and pressure will mount on the government.

The above I generally agree with in that resistance will be stiffened. Not just in the colonies as I suspect France would be more important in that the offence would probably be a lot greater there. [Civil wars are generally bitter and there was already a lot of hostility between loyalist and rebel]. However the French would be bitterly offended and I suspect that would greatly ease the task of those who wished to continue supporting the rebels. [Not necessarily to France's advantage in the longer run]. Also it would increase the degree of division in Britain itself, many of who affected by rebel propaganda.


Even in the worst case scenario, in which Washington's army is completely destroyed, that Cornwallis won through conventional means and the Continental Congress hung from the gallows, the British colonies would have to maintain a huge occupation force against a restive countryside. People will remember that they had taken up arms against the British and had held out for six-seven years, and things just aren't going to go back to the way they were, too much blood has been spilled to turn back from the path. The Americans themselves are also individualistic in a general sense, and this could mean that its only a matter of time before they get ideas about independance again and a second revolution breaks out, perhaps while Britain is too busy dealing with some type of big European conflaguration.
Think of it this way, if the US had invaded and taken over North Vietnam during the Vietnam War (assuming they would be able to do this without reaction from the Chinese or Russians), that would not have stopped resistence. Like in Vietnam, the colonists wanted to be independant. If they hadn't would there have been six years of fighting until Cornwallis' treachery. Even if there were no more outright fighting, the amount of tax revenue the British would gotten from the Americans would hardly be enough to cover all the costs that would come with maintaining it. The Colonies would be too big, too populous, too far away and too restive to hold down, and sooner or later the British are going to feel the pinch and grant the Americans their independance.

Had the British tried to keep the colonists down for much longer, they might have lost so much by the way of finances that it might have provoked a violent reaction within Britain itself. For those who doubt me, look at what happened to France? One of the main reasons for that revolution was because of the weakening of the ancien regime because of the finances spent propping up the Americans in the Revolutionary War. Though it sounds ASB, and you're free to disagree with me, the same could have happened to Britain.

In the long run, a long, low-level indefinitely long quagmire in America would be worse for Britain. If the British had spent all their money keeping the lid on America, how do they finance whatever large-scale European conflict they'll face? That might also mean the British Empire as a whole might be a lot smaller, considering how much they need to spend on America. Instead of being a uber-superpower, as WitchHunter suggests, Britain might be so financially drained from holding down America they might be on the same level as Portugal.

With all the money gone into the American black hole, how would the Britsh power the industrial revolution? How would they be able to maintain colonies on India, Australia, South Africa etc,? The westward expansion of America would be a lot slower and the continental US itself a whole lot less developed. The American colony might still well be stuck on the Mississippi, with only isolated settlements on the Pacific Coast. Think of what happened to Spain, and her colonies? They had a Latin American Empire for 300 years, but didn't have the money to develop it properly. Look how poor Latin America is now? The other reason is that fewer people would want to settle in America, and it would attract much less foreign investment, considering the amount of unrest it has.

Overall, I think it was better on the long run that Britain gave up America when they did. With America off their hands, the British were able to colonize elsewhere and have the largest Empire ever created, and the United States, left to manage its own affairs, became the powerhouse that it is today, along with being a British ally.

This I disagree with. It wasn't a case of conquering and controlling a different people with their long history of independence. It was a case of which element, following which policies, would be dominant in the area. There was support for the rebellion in many areas but also much opposition to the rebel aims. Don't forget the vast majority of the 'British' who surrendered at Yorktown were colonists and it was only the presence of a large French army and, even more importantly the navy than forced that surrender. The loyalists could have won, especially if France had lost interest in continuing to pour money it didn't have into its own black hole in funding the rebellion.

There would have been hard liners who would have been unwilling to accept defeat. However they would be likely to isolate themselves as the bulk of the population would desire peace and stability rather than the continued chaos and violence. After all, there were not long lasting guerrilla resistance in the south after the US civil war and it was treated far more brutally than even the most extreme propaganda from the rebels.

I also fail to see why the region would see slower development if it stayed under British rule. It would have even better access to British finances and a richer Britain, aided by the less defence spending needed and the greater trade. America would have attracted large numbers of immigrants, just as Britain and Canada did historically, possibly even more so. India was already very much in Britain's sphere of influence by this time. S Africa would probably have been seized at some time as a vital stepping point to India and China. Australia might have been settled by someone else, probably the French, if Britain still had the Americas. Even in N America it is likely that clashes with France and Spain would have seen the frontier march westward. Possibly a bit slower as a government in London might, at least at 1st, pay more attention to the native population. Furthermore the demographic mass that the US built up historically, even if not certainly overwhelming, would have been even greater with higher settlement from Britain. Furthermore, while London would be more cautious than Washington was historically about military expansion to the west if/when conflict did come the colonists would have had the 19thC superpower to back them up.

Steve
 
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