People will try to get around it just like any other law. It could go the way of Reconstruction or it could go the way of Federal Income Tax. It's merely a question of enforcement.

I have to say, though, that the idea that people only work for profit is weirdly Randian. People do things for reasons other than a cold, logical profit motive. There's ego, there's joy, there's lots of things. Nobody will eat, sleep, and breathe something for decades and then stop because they hit one very specific kind of milestone.

...okay, maybe some people will, but not everybody. I think the pool of potential millionaires is bigger than the crybabies Atlas Shruggers.
 
If he could only ever have the figure @Theoretical_TJ mentioned, ~150 million dollars. Would a person starting from nothing refuse to work, quit the game and go for maximizing free time not income, if that were the highest level of wealth they could ever reach? Would someone who started with ten million dollars?

I just don't believe it. And when it comes to people who are already over that level, they can't bring the physical components of the economy with them if they leave. They probably couldn't convince the managers to leave with them, not when they'll be the ones 'inheriting' the assets left behind.

Every dollar that you create over the maximum becomes effectively worthless, especially in terms of investing. You assume all the risk and get no reward. This becomes a massive disincentive to reinvest in the economy, and the economy would lose tens of billions of dollars over the coming years. What you'll see is people hitting the cap and then moving to another less onerous jurisdiction taking their money and talent with them. If you have a great idea that will make you millions you'll just drive to Canada and do everything on that side of the border because you'll get a higher ROI.

Eight million might go as far as one-hundred-fifty-three million today but that doesn't mean the government will have consistently raised the cap every year.

Whole industries would have fled the country, or at least huge potions of them. The entertainment industry might set up shop elsewhere because big money can be created on a dime and most of your profit could vanish overnight if you hit the cap. Ditto the tech industry or a dozen others. No doubt some will stay, but many will just hop the border to Canada because if you make it big, you actually get to keep your gains.
 
These are the industries where it is impossible for more than one person to own them?

An eighty million dollar firm that must be owned by one person, not by sixteen shareholders with four million shares each?

You assume all the risk for no reward when you are making moves near the edge of the personal limit. For those trying to earn eight million or a hundred and fifty million, they have the same risk and reward as right now, but maybe less risk.
 
These are the industries where it is impossible for more than one person to own them?

An eighty million dollar firm that must be owned by one person, not by sixteen shareholders with four million shares each?

You assume all the risk for no reward when you are making moves near the edge of the personal limit. For those trying to earn eight million or a hundred and fifty million, they have the same risk and reward as right now, but maybe less risk.

You're making a lot of assumptions here, that the sixteen investors have the acumen of the one, that they have the financial resources to make a large or risky investment in the firm that will pay large dividends, that they have the resources to weather a large scale industry downturn.

Some of those may never happen, but doubtless some will on some firms and those firms will go belly up because they didn't have a wealthy owner who could plop a huge sum of money down and take advantage of new market conditions and expand the firm. Or a guy who can afford to take huge losses for a years might survive an economic storm but in a group of sixteen half a dozen might not not and it could break the firm because the other ten can't afford to save the firm.

Or maybe the firm is wildly profitable and these guys all hit the cap. And they realize they could be doing the same thing in London as they could in America except make more money so they move to London and set us shop there and turn the American portion of the firm into a satellite branch and now most of that revenue gets routed through London instead of New York.
 
I love Huey Long, but any hard limit on accumulated capital is going to be a disaster.

A better solution would be rather to tax accumulated wealth at a small percentage over the 8 million. This would encourage people to spend or invest their money (I suppose it would only target unused capital, rather than stocks obviously).

A negative income tax might be a more refined solution for a guranteed income. The Share our Wealth solution suffers the same problem modern welfare systems often do. That people are disincentivied to earn a raise if it means losing their money from the welfare system. A negative income tax solves that problem.

For example, lets say the tax starts at $10,000. If you make $8,000 than the govt provides the extra $2,000. However unlike a traditional welfare system, you are just as incentivised to try and earn more money. If lets say you get a $1,000 raise then the govt pays you $1,000 and you still make $10,000.
 
You're making a lot of assumptions here, that the sixteen investors have the acumen of the one, that they have the financial resources to make a large or risky investment in the firm that will pay large dividends, that they have the resources to weather a large scale industry downturn.

This is an economic hypothesis, we're all making assumptions. You're assuming people will not seek to acquire X million dollars if there is a cap of X+Y million dollars. I'm assuming larger enterprises do not require a single owner to operate, even if a single manager is most efficient.

Some of those may never happen, but doubtless some will on some firms and those firms will go belly up because they didn't have a wealthy owner who could plop a huge sum of money down and take advantage of new market conditions and expand the firm. Or a guy who can afford to take huge losses for a years might survive an economic storm but in a group of sixteen half a dozen might not not and it could break the firm because the other ten can't afford to save the firm.

Or a fund with many members could step in to do the same thing, take losses, provide start-up, and so on. It doesn't need to be one person. Funds like this already exist, they're already safer than investing by yourself.

Or maybe the firm is wildly profitable and these guys all hit the cap. And they realize they could be doing the same thing in London as they could in America except make more money so they move to London and set us shop there and turn the American portion of the firm into a satellite branch and now most of that revenue gets routed through London instead of New York.

I understand the point you're making, and like I said earlier, I don't actually support any kind of solid limit on annual income or total wealth.

I just don't understand the arguments against this policy. It's unfair in it's inception, but I don't think it would crash the economy, or force an exile of the mythical Atlases who seem to secretly support us all. It may well result in the very wealthiest leaving to live off a bank account in a tax haven (unable to profit to their liking from places with policies like this); this honestly doesn't bother me so much. It will also result in more wealthy people in the country that implements it, more people approaching the personal limit; and I'd like as many of these wealthy people as possible. I'd say we'd see far more mutual societies, corporations, and the like, with more wealthy individuals than before, with a lower median fortune.
 

PhilippeO

Banned
...okay, maybe some people will, but not everybody. I think the pool of potential millionaires is bigger than the crybabies Atlas Shruggers.

Yes, i think this is basic philosophical difference that view how people see economic.

you could be Libertarian, Randian or Supply-sider who view that civilization and its technological progress is created by extremely small number of 'talented' people who drive progress.

or

you could be Leftist who believe that there are surplus of talent that under utilized because of competition.

---

personally i believer in surplus talent theory. if facebook not invented, then friendster or myspace would replace it. if Bill Gates didn't found microsoft, someone else would develop microcomputer. Purge the nobles from french army and you could still get Ney, Bernadotte and other Napoleonic Marshall. if the rich run, then their heir, subordinate, and competitor would fill their place.

Or maybe the firm is wildly profitable and these guys all hit the cap. And they realize they could be doing the same thing in London as they could in America except make more money so they move to London and set us shop there and turn the American portion of the firm into a satellite branch and now most of that revenue gets routed through London instead of New York.

and government would still benefit from taxation of America satellite branch. millionaire running away only work on copyright or brand sensitive industry. If Wharton go to London, profit from local Walmart branch will still be taxed, and attempt to transfer dividend to foreigner would also still taxed. Or they might e replaced by 7eleven, Carrefour or other company.
 
This is an economic hypothesis, we're all making assumptions. You're assuming people will not seek to acquire X million dollars if there is a cap of X+Y million dollars. I'm assuming larger enterprises do not require a single owner to operate, even if a single manager is most efficient.

Or a fund with many members could step in to do the same thing, take losses, provide start-up, and so on. It doesn't need to be one person. Funds like this already exist, they're already safer than investing by yourself.

I understand the point you're making, and like I said earlier, I don't actually support any kind of solid limit on annual income or total wealth.

I just don't understand the arguments against this policy. It's unfair in it's inception, but I don't think it would crash the economy, or force an exile of the mythical Atlases who seem to secretly support us all. It may well result in the very wealthiest leaving to live off a bank account in a tax haven (unable to profit to their liking from places with policies like this); this honestly doesn't bother me so much. It will also result in more wealthy people in the country that implements it, more people approaching the personal limit; and I'd like as many of these wealthy people as possible. I'd say we'd see far more mutual societies, corporations, and the like, with more wealthy individuals than before, with a lower median fortune.

I understand where you're coming from but I have a much more dim view of the situation than you. My opinion is that due to massive capital and intellectual flight that America itself will be much poorer with a great deal of wealth siphoned off to other jurisdictions. That investors will go after X+Y instead of merely X and that without deep pocketed investors you'll see a higher percentage of failed firms and fewer capital projects.

We'll just have agree to disagree.
 
I understand where you're coming from but I have a much more dim view of the situation than you. My opinion is that due to massive capital and intellectual flight that America itself will be much poorer with a great deal of wealth siphoned off to other jurisdictions. That investors will go after X+Y instead of merely X and that without deep pocketed investors you'll see a higher percentage of failed firms and fewer capital projects.

We don't know there would be massive capital flight. The means of production cannot be moved overseas, the wealthy might want to remain in a place where they still own and/or run some firms, rather than live on interest in a tax haven. The management of owners is not what currently runs firms large enough to count under either the eight or hundred and fifty million dollar limit, they hire managers to do it. A mutual fund can do the same thing as a single wealthy individual.

Investors will go after X. I don't agree that they wouldn't go after X at all if X+Y is never an option for them.

We'll just have agree to disagree.

Yep. We both know where we both stand on this one.
 
I haven't read the thread properly so forgive me if this repeats things. IIRC John Lennon wrote Imagine No Possessions, while George Harrison wrote I'm The Taxman.

I don't have the figures to prove it but I suspect that there were many more British tax exiles in the 1970s than there are now, because then the top rate of Income Tax was 83% and its now when its 50%.
 
Why
Is
Everyone
Using
the modern times
as example?

I'm talking about 1934--1941, there was no Trump at the time, we had other millio-billionaries
 
Those are the main points of the share your wealth movement:
  1. No person would be allowed to accumulate a personal net worth of more than 300 times the average family fortune, which would limit personal assets to between $5 million and $8 million. A graduated capital levy tax would be assessed on all persons with a net worth exceeding $1 million.
  2. Annual incomes would be limited to $1 million and inheritances would be capped at $5.1 million.
  3. Every family was to be furnished with a homestead allowance of not less than one-third the average family wealth of the country. Every family was to be guaranteed an annual family income of at least $2,000 to $2,500, or not less than one-third of the average annual family income in the United States. Yearly income, however, cannot exceed more than 300 times the size of the average family income.
  4. An old-age pension would be made available for all persons over 60.
  5. To balance agricultural production, the government would preserve/store surplus goods, abolishing the practice of destroying surplus food and other necessities due to lack of purchasing power.
  6. Veterans would be paid what they were owed (a pension and healthcare benefits).
  7. Free education and training for all students to have equal opportunities in all schools, colleges, universities, and other institutions for training in the professions and vocations of life.
  8. The raising of revenue and taxes for the support of this program was to come from the reduction of swollen fortunes from the top, as well as for the support of public works to give employment whenever there may be any slackening necessary in private enterprise.
The PoD is any date after the share your wealth speech in 1934 to the american entry in world war II
This isn't really a share your wealth movement. It's a take their wealth movement. That is we think you have too much and are going to take the excess off you whether you want us to or not.

I am a child of the British Welfare State and IMHO it's legitimate to tax the rich heavily to provide better Government services. However, to tax the rich simply because you think they have too much is state theft.
 
I haven't read the thread properly so forgive me if this repeats things. IIRC John Lennon wrote Imagine No Possessions, while George Harrison wrote I'm The Taxman.

I don't have the figures to prove it but I suspect that there were many more British tax exiles in the 1970s than there are now, because then the top rate of Income Tax was 83% and its now when its 50%.

These were tax exiles who nevertheless profited from businesses they owned in the United Kingdom?
 
If you think this is wild you ought to dig up Robert Rimmer's Love Me Tomorrow (1978). While his sexual proposals were to him the backbone of the book his Presidential candidate (who won but was murdered by the Deep Politics Establishment, but his VP put through the agenda) was proposing a top personal wealth of four million. This was supposed to be 2004, as I recall.

And since the economy was so thoroughly computerized, the tax could be taken off from income and capital automatically. He called it the "Floating Instant Skim Tax" -- yes, "FIST". You don't think people would see something wrong with that?
 
This isn't really a share your wealth movement. It's a take their wealth movement. That is we think you have too much and are going to take the excess off you whether you want us to or not.

I am a child of the British Welfare State and IMHO it's legitimate to tax the rich heavily to provide better Government services. However, to tax the rich simply because you think they have too much is state theft.

Incorrect. There are more than a few studies that show that inequality in and of itself is a social ill and exacerbates problems like crime, violence, and mental illness. The state has a responsibility to ensure the well being of its citizens and there's a decent, evidence-backed argument to be made that reducing inequality (regardless of means) does exactly that.
 
Wealth is power. Someone with 8 million in 1934 or 150 million today can't possibly spend all that on gratifying themselves, except in the sense that sheer ostentation, displaying their wealth, is gratifying.

What they can do with that much money, or ten or a hundred times it, is have control over a vast enterprise that means in essence political control over the lives of those dependent on it, and power in the economy at large. Productive enterprise takes on aspects of politics, of games of conquest and control. Wealth that is permitted to concentrate on the principle that whatever someone owns is presumed to be theirs by right creates an aristocracy and makes a mockery of democracy. That is the problem, if one is a democrat anyway, that Long was tapping into outrage against.

It is one thing if the aristocracy of wealth is automatically steered, as the acolytes of laissez-faire capitalism solemnly assure us is the case due to natural law, to provide the best possible outcome for the masses at large. Long, and Roosevelt's New Dealers, and the rather popular Communists of the day, were all operating in a situation where the "smart" capitalists with "acumen" had delivered global disaster. Only by believing that any possible alternative whereby the people organized democratically "interfere" in "free markets" the outcome must be still worse than tens of millions starving and unemployed can one conclude that unfettered capitalism is still the only just system and also the best bet for the working majority.

Which is what the naysayers of this thread are saying. However bad the Depression was, they assure us the alternative would be worse, because of capital flight and capital strike.

Well, perhaps it is quite true that a system as bloody simplistic as Huey Long's would indeed have been more disastrous. Because quite obviously people who enjoy levels of power that 1930s billionaires and modern trillionaires do won't surrender that power meekly, and there would be some question what kind of administration of collective wealth would replace the straightforward "right" of people like that to do as they damned well pleased. Some naysaying against Long's system could be in favor of a more effective alternative.

But a whole lot of it is clearly in favor of acceptance of the simple right of the rich to do as they see fit, because it is "their money."

My own leftist perspective comes in part from my disapproval of what they tend to do with wealth and the mechanisms they create to perpetuate poverty, rather than "a rising tide lifting all boats" automatically which JFK, as yet another acolyte of private wealth, so trustingly told us we should believe.

Anyone who has played the board game of Monopoly can understand that in a market system, wealth is an automatic loading of the dice in favor of the wealthy. A leaner investor and a better heeled one may be facing the exact same risks in considering a possible business investment, but the former is subjectively risking everything they have managed to accumulate on this opportunity, while the other one can much better afford the downside if things do not work out. Assuming both are equally informed and intelligent, their foreseen outcomes are not the same. Therefore if there is no countervailing principle of wealth redistribution downward, fortunes automatically accumulate and consolidate, since the natural countervailing tendencies in the marketplace operate on the leaner and fatter investor entirely the same--if that is, we assume the system is honest and rules are fairly enforced. In fact, illegal manipulations, along with laws that are written for the convenience of the rich allowing legal recourses only the richer can afford, and political influence in the legal system, all add another layer of transfer of wealth from poorer to richer that reinforces and accelerates the natural tendency of all wealth to concentrate in a few hands.

As the author says, come down from the ivory tower a bit and consider the lay of the land in the mid-1930s when Huey Long was actually around to say these things. From a radical point of view this was a rare opportunity, when the power of wealth was suffering from a stroke and its moral credibility was massively tarnished, for a democratic people to seize the day and rewrite the rules.

Quite naturally the rich ruling classes would react with deliberation and some anger.

But do we really believe here that men like Donald Trump (to use a particularly familiar modern example), or Kenneth Lay to go back to the Enron schemes, or the founding Rockefeller to use someone known to the history of the 1930s, or J.P. Morgan for a more recent example of the same, all acquired their commanding levels of wealth because they were that much smarter than the average person? Or had some mystical gift of money-making denied ordinary mortals? Well, they certainly all did have the latter--they had the previously accumulated capital that 99 percent of us will never see to get them into the game.

But I believe if you handed any of us the same initial bankroll, quite a few of us could do better. A certain degree of ruthlessness is also required to make the maximum gains of course! So that is what we revere when we revere the people who have built up the largest fortunes--previous inherited fortune plus sociopathic ruthlessness. They are not men of commanding intellect; they hire people who are reasonably bright, and every other aspect of wealth they claim to "create" is actually at best managed by them, drawn from the ordinary work of ordinary workers.

From my perspective, it is the workers of the world who create wealth first of all, and when we raise the question of ownership by right, a certain degree of redistribution downward again seems to be only just and indeed necessary.

Especially if one values competition! Without some mechanism to bleed the wealth back downward again, we are doomed to a world owned by a handful of super wealthy oligarchs, and if you take a look at the "small businesses" that dominate the landscape and scoop up most revenue you will find they are overwhelmingly franchises and other partnership schemes that pay a tithe directly or indirectly to these mega-oligarchs, and are controlled by them, not their nominal small owners.

Now then, it becomes plain why simply passing Long's Share The Wealth program (I've never seen it referred to as "Share Your Wealth" or "Share Our Wealth" either) as legislation in House and Senate and having a President sign it into law will not simply happen. Even in the Depression the wealthy threatened by it would, before trying to slip away (to where, exactly? Canada? Britain? Nazi Germany? Japan? France?) with their "assets" somehow in pocket, first stand and fight to control the country they already effectively ruled. You'd have to get rid of most Senators and Congressmen to get laws like this passed, and FDR would not sign it (which is why Long wanted to undermine his chances of reelection in '36, which would get a Republican in, believing the people would then elect himself in 1940). And if passed of course the Courts would start invalidating it as unConstitutional. I'm not sure on which Constitutional clauses they'd base this actually, but I'm sure they'd find something and stand by it. So to say "what if Share The Wealth were applied" is either to postulate an ASB scenario--which critics more than supporters of the premise have done here--or to game out a revolutionary crisis in which the machinery of government is rapidly and efficiently replaced pretty much entirely in one politically guided surge. Violence would certainly happen! Perhaps not so much violence as to ruin the material assets the people would be seizing very much, if the movement were very popular and sectors rather accustomed to violence such as the military and many police and private security went along with, putting their interests as poor people and citizens ahead of their immediate orders. But it would take a revolution.

In considering the effects of capital flight and strikes of capital, then, we have to imagine them in the context of such a violent revolutionary struggle, not in the context of Congress just producing a paper coup overnight. Either the violence comes before the act of Congress, or immediately after, but it will be part of what happens.

Wealth, in its nature, boils down to material assets. So many hundreds of acres of land, a factory of so many hundred thousand cubic feet capable of inputting so many tons of raw material and outputting so many tons of finished goods with a given labor force, warehouses with so many product items stacked in them, so many miles of railroad and electric power lines connected to junctions and generators. The rich can take their beautiful minds with their brilliant business schemes over the border, and enjoy a certain amount of credit when the get there, but they can't pick up the factories and railroad mileage and warehouses full of auto parts and take them with them! To a great extent, information is needed so the material goods flow effectively, reaching the markets that can pay for their final purchase and consumption thus providing the revenue that funds the next iteration of production and any expansion that might occur. The rich can sabotage that, by burning their records and leaving the management of the physical capital in the hands of people with no experience in these matters.

But when all that is done, assuming mass flight of those rich enough to suffer from the wealth cap after either they wake up in ASB scenario with this deed done and no inclination to fight it out in the courts, let alone the streets, or else they have lost the fight they did wage but it didn't utterly devastate everything because they were outnumbered and outswarmed, and so they cut and ran rather hastily--the material wealth is still there, the factories and fields and railroads are still there, and the men and women who showed up every morning to man the machines and the plows are still there too. All they need is someone who can tell them when to show up and do their routine work that they well know how to do, and when not to. And in a pinch, deprived of their former managers, I do think they can learn to figure this out for themselves!

So say something as simplistic as a wealth cap with redistribution of everything over 8 million 1935 dollar individual fortunes were in place. No enterprise reasonably assessed at over 8 million dollars could exist as the owned property of one person. But then again, it could hardly be something that one person productively operated either! Why not simply credit the wealth the enterprise represents to the workers who work in it, equally? How many firms that were valued at 800 million dollars in the 1930s, or even in 1928 before the crash, had fewer than 100 workers in them?

The fact is, even assuming that the civil war between propertarians and share-the-welathers did not go much deeper into American society than just the rich themselves versus the poor majority (we would expect tens of millions much too poor to be personally affected by the 8 million dollar cap to line up with their financial betters, but pretend that does not happen) still pretty quickly a hierarchy of effective power will emerge anyway, I suppose. On paper, big enterprises will be owned collectively by their workers--but in practice most of these workers will let authority slip into relatively few hands. Those individuals, either by impressive vision combined with acumen, or by chicanery, will wind up in effect controlling the concentrated wealth. An effective system will remain being about power, and won't be truly egalitarian.

But we can legitimately wonder, would the dynamics of the new system with a wealth cap be substantially changed? Will it necessarily be any less efficient than the old system of rule of unlimited wealth, or might it evolve to be more efficient despite its simplistic modifications?

I don't think the textbook verities about sapping the will to enterprise that allegedly drives our current system would apply the way the textbook authors assume. We'd have to see the real system in action to discover its characteristic flaws and bottlenecks, and to learn what the kind of people who can under such a system approach a personal wealth of 8 million dollars do when they near that limit. Do they bleed off wealth uselessly--or do they donate it in ways that alienate it from their control but do serve a useful function? Why shouldn't a clever shop foreman, elected by her coworkers, who approaches 8 million in personal fortune spend it as fast as she gets it in ways that strengthen her firm's market position, by encouraging the rise of cheaper inputs or expanded consumer markets? Perhaps she gets bored with an easy task and shows up at some other firm offering a scheme to put them ahead for the benefit of the workers there?

Or of course she could just quit and stay home, enjoying her substantial personal fortune, which means she is out of the way and her old firm has to find someone else to take her place. If this is the pattern, we'd wind up with millions of early retirees, living off personal fortunes earned by their own work, serving as a consumer market to ballast the productive economy while others have the opportunity to learn to run a firm in their footsteps. Maybe the retired millionaires go into politics? We might wind up with something that appears to be a plutocracy but is far more democratic and populist than our OTL reality!
 
These were tax exiles who nevertheless profited from businesses they owned in the United Kingdom?
Is that a statement or a question?

AFAIK they did profit from them and paid the tax on it at the tax rates of Switzerland, the Isle of Mann, the Channel Islands and Monaco.

There was a British entertainer called Max Bygraves who had a lot of hit records in the 1950s. I remember him talking about it in a chat show and he said that they made him over a Million Pounds on it and the Inland Revenue took 97.5% of it. Therefore when he watched the British Army on manoeuvres with its tanks he thought, "I bought them!"
 
Is that a statement or a question?

A question.

AFAIK they did profit from them and paid the tax on it at the tax rates of Switzerland, the Isle of Mann, the Channel Islands and Monaco.

Then they didn't really leave the UK for business purposes, just for residence and taxation. They're paying tax haven rates on money they have earned in a normal country under normal laws.

There was a British entertainer called Max Bygraves who had a lot of hit records in the 1950s. I remember him talking about it in a chat show and he said that he made over a Million Pounds on it and the Inland Revenue took 97.5% of it. Therefore when he watched the British Army on manoeuvres with its tanks he thought, "I bought them!"

I doubt old money was paying those kind of taxes, one wonders how there are any remaining. He was paying so much because he was earning money by selling things, he should have tried starting out rich and investing and renting, so he could keep more of his profits.


I understand it is something of a radical position, but I believe you should pay taxes in the place you where have accrued the money, the place where the people who did business with you live, ideally, the place you and yours live.
 
Then they didn't really leave the UK for business purposes, just for residence and taxation.
All the tax exiles I know of were pop stars and film stars. I don't know about industrialists leaving the UK for business purposes if that is what you meant.
They're paying tax haven rates on money they have earned in a normal country under normal laws.
I thought that was the point you were making originally.
 
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