Bermuda would likely remains special case. The Bahamas are not likely to be let go, they're just to valuable, but Bermuda itself is not improbable as American territory. Likely it gets attached to Virginia as a county and eventually becomes its now territory or state.
What happens to Bermuda and the Bahamas in the United States?
- Thread starter JJohnson
- Start date
Bermuda and Bahamas were already quite valuable as ports for the CSA, though - merely that they're now bluntly open for the South. And likely swiftly re-conquered by the Union in turn.
This is also why I think they suspect they won't be too big a deal for switching into American hands. Political-wise, they are very minor in influencing America as a whole beyond four senators, and the North will hold the House anyways as in OTL.
Surely there had to be some legislation prior to 1860/1861 that came down to only just a few votes in the Senate that the North won? I'd think that 4 new Pro-South Senators could possibly have some big butterflies. If they prevent the Civil War even longer, perhaps even to its latest plausible date (late 1860's/early 1870's, I would assume) then...well...yeah, the butterflies are endless.
Tallest Skil
Banned
The Bahamas would become a state. Bermuda would be administered from whichever of the Eastern Seaboard states appeased the federal government enough.
Bahamas was a shoot-off of Carolina in the vein Bermuda was of Virginia, though - most of its population tripled (!) with the Loyalist exodus as was a massive amount of slaves being brought in to farm sea cotton. They never had sugar as a major crop (although I could be wrong in this). They aren't even geologically part of the Caribbean plate, but rather North America!
This sudden influx won't happen in TTL but the same fate will happen to Bahamas - island appendage of the Deep South, sea cotton, hell of a convenient port - just more gradually.
Look at the big picture of the Bahamas in a cultural-historical sense and it's influenced as much by America as it was Britain. Arguably the same for Bermuda. It's no worse than how the Maritimes share a ton of culture even to this day with New England, or how the Pacific Coast of both America and Canada are startlingly similar in day-to-day-life and culture.
One could argue why Delaware isn't part of Pennsylvania still, then. If Bermuda is a separate government - and it was - then it shall remain so.
I don't disagree, but I believe (off the top of my head) by 1861 the Northern states had slightly more senators anyways thanks to California coming in entirely as a free state, which was why Southland seceded. Factor in one could swing a senator here or there for political purposes and I suspect that history would remain quite similar in a political sense.
EDIT: 17 slave states in 1861 to 19 free states, adding in Bahamas and Bermuda.
Tallest Skil
Banned
Is this what you meant? That's a silly argument.
A state of 20 square miles doesn't work, period.
Oh, I didn't notice this. Thanks for the personal insult.
Well, time to prove you wrong!
http://books.google.com/books?id=ZI...nepage&q=Had the Continental Congress&f=false
-Read this. Pages 48-53. No, really, read it, my little friend, and notice the trade and cordial relations Congress and Bermuda had. If Britain had been doing its job as a colonial adminstrator - and clearly, it wasn't - this wouldn't be an issue now in the first place on arguing if a capture of Bermuda or its statehood is viable.
http://www.redcoat.me.uk/bermuda.htm
-Notes how America had the armed sloop USS Randolph ready to take the island in 1777. Two brigs that overwhelmed Chub Cut, and the mentioned Randolph. If the Nautilus had moved ahead - indeed wasn't so cruddy in repairs that it likely would have - then boom, Bermuda's American.
Oh, and my aformentioned 1779 missed-by-ten minutes capture.
Most of all, Britain's Royal Navy sucked at this point. That these islands managed to hang on is still due to luck as much as anything else.
Look up Delaware Colony on Wikipedia. No, I am not.
Why is Prince Edward Island its own province, then? Why is Delaware or Rhode Island still a state? If you ran your own government are you willingly going to give it up? Especially when you hold value as a port?
Tallest Skil
Banned
Because it isn't part of the United States and different rules apply. Also for the following reason:
Because of their sizes and populations.
No, because nothing would be given up, and if anything they'd have more control than ever before.
Faeelin
Banned
I was agreeing with your post, and then I wondered how many ironclads the Chinese were building in the 1860s.
Another point - if the US captured them in the Revolution, and Britain refuses to cede the island, might they surrender bits of Canada in exchange? Ontario for the islands maybe? I'm always shocked how Britian treated Canada as a barganing chip with the USA until 1867.
You ignore the base point that it also involves the local population's will, hence using PEI as an example - another subdivision with a low population and area compared to subdivisions. Yet it still remains.
Delaware was governed by Pennsylvania till 1704 and shared the same governor till 1776. Why not just keep it that way? Especially as Delaware's population wasn't the highest in the colonies and early republic by a long shot, either. I don't believe it hit 60,000 people yet. By that logic it ought have remained a territory, shouldn't it?
Bermuda was a separate entity and treated as such by other colonies. To suggest it be lumped in with another colony is like wondering why all the New England states don't combine into a 'State of New England.'
I can't find exact populations, but at the time the Bahamas would've likely had less than 10,000 (they had 15,000 in 1830) while Bermuda would've had probably around 3,500 (they had 4,200 in 1812).
frlmerrin
Banned
Faeelin,
My point about China was that it could (and did during the opium wars) impact British trade at source not that China could offer a significant naval threat to Britain per se. In order to address the threat of trade being cut off the British kept a warship squadron in China of similar size to that which it kept I. North America and the West Indies.
Not that it is terribly relevant but:
In 1860 neither China nor the USA had any ironclad.
In 1875 China had (if memory serves) one (British built) and the USA had one (or no) ironclads that could threaten an RN ironclad.
My point about China was that it could (and did during the opium wars) impact British trade at source not that China could offer a significant naval threat to Britain per se. In order to address the threat of trade being cut off the British kept a warship squadron in China of similar size to that which it kept I. North America and the West Indies.
Not that it is terribly relevant but:
In 1860 neither China nor the USA had any ironclad.
In 1875 China had (if memory serves) one (British built) and the USA had one (or no) ironclads that could threaten an RN ironclad.
Tallest Skil
Banned
This is insane. Look at this:
Less than the population of my town. So my town should break away from its state and become its own state, yeah? It's only a few square miles itself. This makes sense to you, does it?
There IS a minimum size and population for self-sustaining [item]. What that item is depends on the context. No, Bermuda could not ever be its own state. None of the other states would agree to that.
Less than the population of my town. So my town should break away from its state and become its own state, yeah? It's only a few square miles itself. This makes sense to you, does it?
Your town does not have an established historical precedent for self governance on a colonial or regional level.
frlmerrin
Banned
Umbric Man,
1 Your original response to my post couched in personally offensive terms.
2 My response to that post used exactly the same terms you used in yours to illustrate my displeasure with your emotive style of debate.
3 This seems to have gone over your head and you have acused me of making personal insults.
4 I have therefore reported your original post and I must decline to respond to any more of your posts as I find you style of debate way too personal and completely inappropriate especially on Xmas Eve (peace and good will and stuff).
Regards,
Frl Merrin
1 Your original response to my post couched in personally offensive terms.
2 My response to that post used exactly the same terms you used in yours to illustrate my displeasure with your emotive style of debate.
3 This seems to have gone over your head and you have acused me of making personal insults.
4 I have therefore reported your original post and I must decline to respond to any more of your posts as I find you style of debate way too personal and completely inappropriate especially on Xmas Eve (peace and good will and stuff).
Regards,
Frl Merrin
Would that matter, given how grossly overrepresented a place that size would be?
This is a question, not an argument.
Tallest Skil
Banned
Oh, doesn't it? Really? In what town do I live, I wonder.
Why does that matter, I wonder. Neither did Delaware.