Was institutionalized human sacrifice doomed to extinction?

Incidentally, martyrdom can in no way be termed an act of "human sacrifice," since it inverts the formula of "murder for God (gods, heaven, spirits, etc.)" Martyrdom is something the martyr suffers at the hands of others, it is not a deliberate action that is carried out by Christians to propitiate or please God but rather a kind of accident. It is true that martyrdom is glorified and many martyrs were perhaps less than discreet about avoiding death, but the action is quite distinct from human sacrifice.

Indeed, martyrdom is not the same as sacrifice, given that the first mainly involves the free will of the sacrificed one. Nonetheless, the argument of the OP is that human sacrifice is faded to disappear because it isn't rational.

Martyrdom isn't either. It also involves the destruction of the capacity of a body. Indisputably, both situations had very different social costs and effects, but they are submitted to the same utility cost regarding a given society. That is to say, it doesn't matter if the man was a martyr or sacrificed by his kind, he is not useful as workforce. So, the "rational" argument doesn't convince me.
 
Indeed, martyrdom is not the same as sacrifice, given that the first mainly involves the free will of the sacrificed one. Nonetheless, the argument of the OP is that human sacrifice is faded to disappear because it isn't rational.

Martyrdom isn't either. It also involves the destruction of the capacity of a body. Indisputably, both situations had very different social costs and effects, but they are submitted to the same utility cost regarding a given society. That is to say, it doesn't matter if the man was a martyr or sacrificed by his kind, he is not useful as workforce. So, the "rational" argument doesn't convince me.
Martyrdom may not be rational, but it's irrational in a very different way than human sacrifice. That is to say, in human sacrifice, the person carrying out the sacrifice both makes the decision to sacrifice and pays the cost of losing whatever value the sacrifices could provide to him or her, while in martyrdom the martyr makes the decision to martyr themselves (that is, not to take action that could prevent them from being killed) but does not pay the societal cost. Hence, there's a direct incentive for the sacrificer to reduce the amount of sacrifice, whereas there's no direct reason for the martyr to avoid martyrdom.

Furthermore, there is a rational reason for other people to promote the ideal of martyrdom, which is that it serves as a very powerful demonstration of the attractiveness of a faith; if it is so compelling that people are willing to die for it, after all, it must be a pretty great thing, right? Certainly enough to spend a bit of your own time on. Internally, it's great for creating an "us-versus-them" narrative and bringing members of a faith community together against outsiders. Hence, it's entirely rational for the church to glorify martyrdom and convince people that it's a good thing, whereas with human sacrifice there's much less incentive to keep large amounts of it going (small amounts may have similar benefits as martyrdom, but large amounts are economically damaging and may have other negative effects). In fact, to support this hypothesis, it's worth pointing out that most churches discourage deliberately seeking martyrdom; being a martyr is good, but sacrificing yourself is not. Hence they can get the benefits of martyrs without paying the costs of having too many martyrs (i.e., the church literally dying, losing supporters, and so on).

It's also worth pointing out that societies where there were many martyrs tended to change in ways that reduced the number of martyrs eventually, though admittedly often not by choice.
 
It was transformed into a form that was much more efficient. Namely, global capitalism.

I dislike capitalism as much as the next guy, but that's absurd. The economic system of capitalism has has no relation to killing people on alters as sacrifices to the gods.
 
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That is to say, in human sacrifice, the person carrying out the sacrifice both makes the decision to sacrifice and pays the cost of losing whatever value the sacrifices could provide to him or her, while in martyrdom the martyr makes the decision to martyr themselves (that is, not to take action that could prevent them from being killed) but does not pay the societal cost. Hence, there's a direct incentive for the sacrificer to reduce the amount of sacrifice, whereas there's no direct reason for the martyr to avoid martyrdom.

I hope I don't sound daft but could you elaborate on this? Specifically, I'm not entirely certain what "societal cost" you're referring to. Do you mean being stigmatized for sacrificing another human being? I feel that surely such a phenomenon can't have been/be universal among societies practicing human sacrifice.

Edit: The part where you say "pays the cost of losing whatever value the sacrifices could provide to him or her" almost makes me think of slaves/war captives being sacrificed rather than utilized for economic value, but if one is thinking in those terms I don't see why that would be a greater incentive (to cease sacrifice) than one's own death, as in the situation of a martyr. Again, I feel like I'm probably misunderstanding something; I'd be much obliged if you provided a clarification.
 

Hapsburg

Banned
I hope I don't sound daft but could you elaborate on this? Specifically, I'm not entirely certain what "societal cost" you're referring to.
The value of the offering to society or the community, I think, is what he means. For instance, livestock can be used as beasts of burden, to make milk, to produce further livestock, et al. When an animal is given up in sacrifice, it is no longer able to do those things (note: use as food is not a cost in this case. Sacrificial animals generally are eaten in a communal meal following the ritual). In the case of human sacrifices, the societal cost is even more acute. Society loses a labourer, a defender, a breeder, a contributor of ideas, et al. The person conducting the sacrifice in both of these cases is responsible for subtracting that value from the community.

Whereas in martyrdom, the martyr is no longer alive. They have no further responsibility, because they're dead.
 
I hope I don't sound daft but could you elaborate on this? Specifically, I'm not entirely certain what "societal cost" you're referring to. Do you mean being stigmatized for sacrificing another human being? I feel that surely such a phenomenon can't have been/be universal among societies practicing human sacrifice.

Edit: The part where you say "pays the cost of losing whatever value the sacrifices could provide to him or her" almost makes me think of slaves/war captives being sacrificed rather than utilized for economic value, but if one is thinking in those terms I don't see why that would be a greater incentive (to cease sacrifice) than one's own death, as in the situation of a martyr. Again, I feel like I'm probably misunderstanding something; I'd be much obliged if you provided a clarification.

Hapsburg gets it on the nose. The cost of human sacrifice (as opposed to animal sacrifice or other substitutes) is the value of the labor that the sacrifices could have provided to the community as slaves, captives or simply members, as I was talking about earlier. The leaders, both religious and secular, of the community carrying out the human sacrifices are presumably responsible for permitting such sacrifices, and would directly benefit from the labor of the people who were sacrificed, so they have a direct incentive to try to reduce the amount of sacrifice. If they do so, they themselves will benefit from the additional labor.

Martyrs, by contrast, have no such direct incentive, because once they're dead they have no further interactions with or responsibilities to the community or anyone inside of it. They won't lose from the absence of their labor, because they will be dead and won't care about it. Now, they may have indirect incentives to avoid martyrdom, with their kin and so on, but no direct economic incentives. It creates an asymmetrical situation, where the benefits and decision-making capability are distributed instead of a symmetrical one where they're unified, as in the other case.
 
Had Carthage won the Punic Wars religious human sacrifice might have gone on up to the present day and seem utterly normal to cultured civilised people.
 
Had Carthage won the Punic Wars religious human sacrifice might have gone on up to the present day and seem utterly normal to cultured civilised people.

Because Carthage's religious institutions would remain unchanged for millennia just like the Romans, right?
 

jahenders

Banned
Not at all. Human sacrifice implies a person being sacrificed to invoke some form of spiritual benefit to the community. The death penalty does no do that. It is either done as punishment for a heinous crime or to rid society of a (perceived) irredeemable and dangerous person.

Even in the cases of burning witches or more recent Taliban/ISIS beheadings, stonings, etc, they're (notionally) destroying an evil, not hoping that doing so will bring rain or good crops.

To make the death penalty into a form of human sacrifice, you'd have to have state-appointed priests proclaiming beforehand, "And now we kill this guy, because doing so will please the God of Equity and will ensure that all inequities in our society cease." I tend to think that the ACLU and others will have some qualms with that.

In a way, death penalty is institutionalized human sacrifice. And I'd say societies were police brutality or aggressive wars are accepted are also engaging in a way of human sacrifice. It may not be because of fear of the sun not coming up in the morning, but how far off the mark it really is?
 
Because Carthage's religious institutions would remain unchanged for millennia just like the Romans, right?

5000 years of Chinese history with very much in the way of continuity are a Reality soooooooo WHY would the folk of Carthage alter their ways in a world where our western idea of progress never got a toehold.

BTW Rome was in fact a very conservative society where things did not change much from one generation to the next.
 
People are sacrificed every year to the god of law and order.

OK. Quit this. So far people have equated a very specific (and historically rather rare) ritual with warfare, capitalism, and law enforcement. Just because societies kill people (enemies and criminals) or allow people to die from poverty or neglect does not make this human sacrifice under any of the accepted anthropological definitions of the practice.
 
Not at all. Human sacrifice implies a person being sacrificed to invoke some form of spiritual benefit to the community. The death penalty does no do that. It is either done as punishment for a heinous crime or to rid society of a (perceived) irredeemable and dangerous person.

Even in the cases of burning witches or more recent Taliban/ISIS beheadings, stonings, etc, they're (notionally) destroying an evil, not hoping that doing so will bring rain or good crops.

To make the death penalty into a form of human sacrifice, you'd have to have state-appointed priests proclaiming beforehand, "And now we kill this guy, because doing so will please the God of Equity and will ensure that all inequities in our society cease." I tend to think that the ACLU and others will have some qualms with that.

OK. Quit this. So far people have equated a very specific (and historically rather rare) ritual with warfare, capitalism, and law enforcement. Just because societies kill people (enemies and criminals) or allow people to die from poverty or neglect does not make this human sacrifice under any of the accepted anthropological definitions of the practice.

Comparing deaths from warfare and capitalism to human sacrifice is a bit silly. Comparing the death penalty - not so much. You're making a distinction between a sacrifice performed to appease a deity versus sacrifice to appease a cultural moral code or a psychological need for justice. I am going to suggest the line between this distinction is a lot smaller and grayer than you believe. If you want to say I am taking this thread on an unnecessary tangent from what the OP intended, well ok. But I stand by my premise, at least to the extent it provokes thoughtful discussion on the nature of sacrifice and crime & punishment.
 
Comparing deaths from warfare and capitalism to human sacrifice is a bit silly. Comparing the death penalty - not so much. You're making a distinction between a sacrifice performed to appease a deity versus sacrifice to appease a cultural moral code or a psychological need for justice. I am going to suggest the line between this distinction is a lot smaller and grayer than you believe. If you want to say I am taking this thread on an unnecessary tangent from what the OP intended, well ok. But I stand by my premise, at least to the extent it provokes thoughtful discussion on the nature of sacrifice and crime & punishment.

Well, I dunno. Often human sacrifices were supposed to be innocent people because why exactly would a god be satisfied with some petty low-lifes that are going to get executed anyway?

5000 years of Chinese history with very much in the way of continuity are a Reality soooooooo WHY would the folk of Carthage alter their ways in a world where our western idea of progress never got a toehold.

BTW Rome was in fact a very conservative society where things did not change much from one generation to the next.
Chinese culture has changed massively over 5000 years. Roman culture had changed as well- the adoption of Christianity being only one of the more notable changes. Maybe ancient peoples didn't see societal change in terms of progress, but their societies did change. You can't say human sacrifice would remain in Carthage due to simple inertia. The needs of a society change.
 
Not at all. Human sacrifice implies a person being sacrificed to invoke some form of spiritual benefit to the community. The death penalty does no do that. It is either done as punishment for a heinous crime or to rid society of a (perceived) irredeemable and dangerous person.

Even in the cases of burning witches or more recent Taliban/ISIS beheadings, stonings, etc, they're (notionally) destroying an evil, not hoping that doing so will bring rain or good crops.

To make the death penalty into a form of human sacrifice, you'd have to have state-appointed priests proclaiming beforehand, "And now we kill this guy, because doing so will please the God of Equity and will ensure that all inequities in our society cease." I tend to think that the ACLU and others will have some qualms with that.
It could be argued that death penalty or accepted police brutality does invoke some sort of spiritual benefit to the community, even if it's not religious in nature. It's "And now we kill this guy because doing so will please us and ensure that violent crime will go down" which may not be neither rational nor objectively correct.
 
Human sacrifice was still practised in some West African societies until European colonial rule suppressed it.
In fact I remember that there was a newspaper story here in the UK back in the 1980s or '90s about a man from Togo who claimed asylum here on the grounds that if he went back home then he -- because of his hereditary place in village society -- was very likely to be sacrificed when his local chief died...
 
.............. You can't say human sacrifice would remain in Carthage due to simple inertia. The needs of a society change.
ring change

Nor can you say that Inevitable Progress will bring change. At the end of the day its just as likely as not that Carthage would continue feeding infants to Molech as long as the City stood.
 
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