Cuāuhtemōc
Banned
Good job, mate. Would our dear Henry VII from OTL still be a lecherous fatass, even as a man of piety? 
You're doing a fantastic job.
You're doing a fantastic job.
Two Lucky Princes: 2.0
- Thread starter SavoyTruffle
- Start date
Good job, mate. Would our dear Henry VII from OTL still be a lecherous fatass, even as a man of piety?
You're doing a fantastic job.
Henry VIII was a quite popular prince as a youth, and then there's the interesting dichotomy of Rome as a holy city - and one with a very decadent side...
Of course, not being king could mean he doesn't become Adipose Rex.
Cuāuhtemōc
Banned
Henry VIII was a quite popular prince as a youth, and then there's the interesting dichotomy of Rome as a holy city - and one with a very decadent side...
Of course, not being king could mean he doesn't become Adipose Rex.
It has been several centuries since an Englishman has been elected Pope. Please do make Henry VIII lucky enough to become Pope. God knows how interesting things can get with the Tudors and the Vatican mixed together.
It has been several centuries since an Englishman has been elected Pope. Please do make Henry VIII lucky enough to become Pope. God knows how interesting things can get with the Tudors and the Vatican mixed together.
Hoo boy, that would make my TL too much like LTTW.
Trust me, though, Henry will play a large role in Papal affairs. Oh you're no fun.
I do hope for how different Manuel's foreign policy is compared to old Charlie.
Miguel's empire is both the New World settlements of Castile and the Portuguese outposts in Asia. On the flip side, he doesn't hold land in Europe apart from the Iberian peninsula, Sardinia, and the Two Sicilies.
Cuāuhtemōc
Banned
Ah sorry, I fudged the name, my apologies. Would Miguel go for conquering and capturing crucial ports North Africa such as Tripoli, Algiers and Tunis?
Slightly upset I had not come across this earlier, but glad to see it, and now i can be a part of it from early on, instead of the end!
Well, any thoughts?
I think Renee of France can do a good bride to Miguel de la Paz that is what I made on my The Legacy of Miguel de la Paz TL.
Had already read the first version of this timeline, and I find the second as good as the first. Great job, Savoy!
A question just cross my mind though : could there be an analogy made between the early Tudor Kings (Henry VII and Arthur I ITTL) and the Arthurian myths? Henry VII does have a lot of common points with Uther Pendragon after all : both got the throne by getting rid of a usurper (Richard III, Vortigern), used a Red Dragon as an Emblem and had a son named Arthur. With this, it seems easy to make the connection, even if only for Propanganda.
A question just cross my mind though : could there be an analogy made between the early Tudor Kings (Henry VII and Arthur I ITTL) and the Arthurian myths? Henry VII does have a lot of common points with Uther Pendragon after all : both got the throne by getting rid of a usurper (Richard III, Vortigern), used a Red Dragon as an Emblem and had a son named Arthur. With this, it seems easy to make the connection, even if only for Propanganda.
Had already read the first version of this timeline, and I find the second as good as the first. Great job, Savoy!
A question just cross my mind though : could there be an analogy made between the early Tudor Kings (Henry VII and Arthur I ITTL) and the Arthurian myths? Henry VII does have a lot of common points with Uther Pendragon after all : both got the throne by getting rid of a usurper (Richard III, Vortigern), used a Red Dragon as an Emblem and had a son named Arthur. With this, it seems easy to make the connection, even if only for Propanganda.
You know, I think both Henry and Arthur would use that fact...
Well, any thoughts?
well, there is one thing that i have been wondering about:
wouldn't a union of aragon, castile, and portugal still be called spain? considering that the differentiation between spain and iberia was not made until the union of aragon and castile, leaving portugal out, it seems to me odd that they would adopt the name iberia, insinuating that iberia (in their view) was any different than spain.
correct me if i'm wrong, but iberia was the greek name for the peninsula, and hispania was the roman name. obviously they adopted the roman name, because they speak a romance language, and at the time would probably call the entire peninsula espana?
that's just the only thing that i've been wondering about, and it is a minor detail. maybe iberia is just what the english call it? iunno.
otherwise, enjoying it!
^That's a good point. I recall Portugal was annoyed that Castile-Aragon had the gall to call themselves "Spain."
Iberia IIRC, was what the Greeks called the mountains south of the Ebro because they reminded them of the other Iberia, but since you had to pass through them to get to the place when going by land they just became another name of the peninsula.
Iberia IIRC, was what the Greeks called the mountains south of the Ebro because they reminded them of the other Iberia, but since you had to pass through them to get to the place when going by land they just became another name of the peninsula.
Iberia is the more modern (Anglophone) usage used TTL, but I think that contemporaries would be using Spain more.
Now, the challenge is pulling that off...
Now, the challenge is pulling that off...
Chapter 4: The Italian Wars, part 1
Excerpt from La Storia d'Italia by Mario Luigi Fontaniere[1]:
The Italian Wars were the defining wars of the late 15th and early 16th centuries. It had represented the dynastic conflicts of principally two houses, the Valois of France and the Habsburgs of the Holy Roman Empire (and later, of Burgundy and Austria). As the name suggests, these wars were fought on our native lands, that of Italy; thus Italy was kept divided by the major powers of the time. Ultimately, however, this made the Italian condottieri renowned throughout Europe as warriors of great élan.
The first Italian War lasted from 1494 to 1498. Ludovico Sforza, then Duke of Milan, had hoped to weaken the Republic of Venice, which had grown considerably over the Padanian basin in the previous century. He thus attempted to gain France as an ally, and France, then ruled by Charles VIII, accepted, using the Angevin claim to Naples (as the House of Valois-Anjou had ruled the kingdom) as his casus belli. France's armies were virtually unopposed as they moved down the peninsula, yet Charles made a fatal error: As he had sacked Naples, the Italian powers had allied, and Milan had betrayed him, joining the anti-French alliance. Soon France, opposed by many European states, ultimately lost, but not before Louis XII, succeeding his distant cousin Charles VIII in 1498, took Milan, citing his descent from the Visconti through his grandmother Valentina, in 1500.
Another war began in 1499 and ended in 1504. After Louis XII acquired Milan in 1500, France and the Holy Roman Empire had signed a treaty, recognizing France's gain of the Duchy of Milan. With Lombardia secured, Louis then offered an alliance to Ferdinand II of Aragon, suggesting a partition of the Kingdom of Naples, seeing as both had claims to the Kingdom. The agreement was formalized at the Treaty of Granada, where Ferdinand had agreed to French claims on the Kingdom of Naples in exchange for territorial gains. The two allies had succeeded; yet, as two greedy birds are wont to fight over the spoils, the allies turned into enemies. Ferdinand reneged on a term of the Treaty of Granada, claiming both the crowns of Naples and Sicily, leading to war between the two great kingdoms of France and Castile-Aragon[2]. France eventually lost its gains in Naples, and at the Treaty of Lyon signed in 1504 the two defined their spheres of control of Italy. Northern Italy was under French influence, with Milan being under the direct control of the king of France, whereas Castile-Aragon controlled Naples and Sicily. Thus the only states relatively free of foreign influence in this period were the Republic of Venice, whose outlook lay in its eastern Mediterranean lands, and the Papal States, whose position as Christendom's arbiter was one the Catholic kingdoms respected.[3]
However, as soon as the Treaty of Lyon dried Ferdinand of Aragon had to deal with the death of his wife, Isabella of Castile, and the succession of his grandson Miguel of Portugal. Ultimately Ferdinand was able to secure the regency with the Burgos Compromise, but this also meant the slight weakening of Spanish control in Southern Italy. Thus Louis XII turned an eye towards Naples once again, though as he was in the midst of the imbroglio of his marriages and lack of male heirs, he could not exploit the situation.
Things turned ugly once more when in 1508, Pope Julius II, worried about Venetian power, had formed the League of Cambrai, in which France, Aragon[4], the Holy Roman Empire, and the Papacy agreed to curb the upstart Republic. Venice, being a maritime power, had a rather small army, and was thus easily defeated by the League in 1509 at Agnadello. France had proven to be as strong a threat as Venice was, however, and Julius switched alliances, allying with Venice against France. Both Venice and the Papacy, however, were no match against the powerful French army, and ultimately Julius called a Holy League, with the aim of defeating France. England joined, being France's greatest rival[5], as did Aragon and the Holy Roman Empire, both with geopolitical reasons to weaken a rival. France did rather well even at this stage, especially with the talents of Louis' nephew Gaston of Foix, and thus feeling his hand was secure, Louis gambled on an invasion of Naples once more, sending Gaston to do so[6]. However, this had meant a deterioration of the French position in northern Italy, with Maximilian Sforza going as far as to proclaim himself Duke of Milan and besieging the city. Although French armies were marching towards Naples, the Holy League was confident enough to divide the French position. The question of Milan was the most important one - and was the wedge that would drive the League apart. Seeking to break French influence over northern Italy, the Papal and Venetian option was to restore the Sforzas as the rulers of the Duchy, whilst on the other hand, the Habsburgs wished to install one of their own, and was supported in this by their ally Aragon. This was complicated by the news that Gaston of Foix had taken the northern regions of Naples; Aragon now had to rush to defend its Italian holdings. Venice, disappointed with the breakdown of the negotiations of the Holy League, secretly approached Louis with the proposal of dividing northern Italy between them. Thus Venice left the Holy League and allied with France...
[1] Yes, Virginia, that is a video game reference.
[2] Note that it isn't called Spain; that will come later.
[3] Pretty much the OTL state of affairs, the butterflies begin hitting the wars by the War of the League of Cambrai.
[4] Castile is technically divorced from Aragon from 1504 to 1516, but as they are tied (and for the most part Ferdinand served as regent in Castile to 1513) there isn't much of a difference.
[5] To the present day TTL; there won't be a Anglo-French entente of some sort.
[6] A crucial butterfly: In OTL Gaston De Foix died at Ravenna in 1512, but his survival means the French situation does not collapse as easily (though with Gaston being sent to Naples it still means northern Italy is wrested for the moment from France).
Excerpt from La Storia d'Italia by Mario Luigi Fontaniere[1]:
The Italian Wars were the defining wars of the late 15th and early 16th centuries. It had represented the dynastic conflicts of principally two houses, the Valois of France and the Habsburgs of the Holy Roman Empire (and later, of Burgundy and Austria). As the name suggests, these wars were fought on our native lands, that of Italy; thus Italy was kept divided by the major powers of the time. Ultimately, however, this made the Italian condottieri renowned throughout Europe as warriors of great élan.
The first Italian War lasted from 1494 to 1498. Ludovico Sforza, then Duke of Milan, had hoped to weaken the Republic of Venice, which had grown considerably over the Padanian basin in the previous century. He thus attempted to gain France as an ally, and France, then ruled by Charles VIII, accepted, using the Angevin claim to Naples (as the House of Valois-Anjou had ruled the kingdom) as his casus belli. France's armies were virtually unopposed as they moved down the peninsula, yet Charles made a fatal error: As he had sacked Naples, the Italian powers had allied, and Milan had betrayed him, joining the anti-French alliance. Soon France, opposed by many European states, ultimately lost, but not before Louis XII, succeeding his distant cousin Charles VIII in 1498, took Milan, citing his descent from the Visconti through his grandmother Valentina, in 1500.
Another war began in 1499 and ended in 1504. After Louis XII acquired Milan in 1500, France and the Holy Roman Empire had signed a treaty, recognizing France's gain of the Duchy of Milan. With Lombardia secured, Louis then offered an alliance to Ferdinand II of Aragon, suggesting a partition of the Kingdom of Naples, seeing as both had claims to the Kingdom. The agreement was formalized at the Treaty of Granada, where Ferdinand had agreed to French claims on the Kingdom of Naples in exchange for territorial gains. The two allies had succeeded; yet, as two greedy birds are wont to fight over the spoils, the allies turned into enemies. Ferdinand reneged on a term of the Treaty of Granada, claiming both the crowns of Naples and Sicily, leading to war between the two great kingdoms of France and Castile-Aragon[2]. France eventually lost its gains in Naples, and at the Treaty of Lyon signed in 1504 the two defined their spheres of control of Italy. Northern Italy was under French influence, with Milan being under the direct control of the king of France, whereas Castile-Aragon controlled Naples and Sicily. Thus the only states relatively free of foreign influence in this period were the Republic of Venice, whose outlook lay in its eastern Mediterranean lands, and the Papal States, whose position as Christendom's arbiter was one the Catholic kingdoms respected.[3]
However, as soon as the Treaty of Lyon dried Ferdinand of Aragon had to deal with the death of his wife, Isabella of Castile, and the succession of his grandson Miguel of Portugal. Ultimately Ferdinand was able to secure the regency with the Burgos Compromise, but this also meant the slight weakening of Spanish control in Southern Italy. Thus Louis XII turned an eye towards Naples once again, though as he was in the midst of the imbroglio of his marriages and lack of male heirs, he could not exploit the situation.
Things turned ugly once more when in 1508, Pope Julius II, worried about Venetian power, had formed the League of Cambrai, in which France, Aragon[4], the Holy Roman Empire, and the Papacy agreed to curb the upstart Republic. Venice, being a maritime power, had a rather small army, and was thus easily defeated by the League in 1509 at Agnadello. France had proven to be as strong a threat as Venice was, however, and Julius switched alliances, allying with Venice against France. Both Venice and the Papacy, however, were no match against the powerful French army, and ultimately Julius called a Holy League, with the aim of defeating France. England joined, being France's greatest rival[5], as did Aragon and the Holy Roman Empire, both with geopolitical reasons to weaken a rival. France did rather well even at this stage, especially with the talents of Louis' nephew Gaston of Foix, and thus feeling his hand was secure, Louis gambled on an invasion of Naples once more, sending Gaston to do so[6]. However, this had meant a deterioration of the French position in northern Italy, with Maximilian Sforza going as far as to proclaim himself Duke of Milan and besieging the city. Although French armies were marching towards Naples, the Holy League was confident enough to divide the French position. The question of Milan was the most important one - and was the wedge that would drive the League apart. Seeking to break French influence over northern Italy, the Papal and Venetian option was to restore the Sforzas as the rulers of the Duchy, whilst on the other hand, the Habsburgs wished to install one of their own, and was supported in this by their ally Aragon. This was complicated by the news that Gaston of Foix had taken the northern regions of Naples; Aragon now had to rush to defend its Italian holdings. Venice, disappointed with the breakdown of the negotiations of the Holy League, secretly approached Louis with the proposal of dividing northern Italy between them. Thus Venice left the Holy League and allied with France...
[1] Yes, Virginia, that is a video game reference.
[2] Note that it isn't called Spain; that will come later.
[3] Pretty much the OTL state of affairs, the butterflies begin hitting the wars by the War of the League of Cambrai.
[4] Castile is technically divorced from Aragon from 1504 to 1516, but as they are tied (and for the most part Ferdinand served as regent in Castile to 1513) there isn't much of a difference.
[5] To the present day TTL; there won't be a Anglo-French entente of some sort.
[6] A crucial butterfly: In OTL Gaston De Foix died at Ravenna in 1512, but his survival means the French situation does not collapse as easily (though with Gaston being sent to Naples it still means northern Italy is wrested for the moment from France).
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