Two and a Half Kingdoms: A Stuart TL

There is little doubt that the soldiers that Robert Dudley bought into the united provinces made a difference, not the least in prevently the fall of Brussels and Antwerp, but the idea that it was the English who ultimately crowned William the Silent as the Count of Holland is vastly unfair on the dutch rebels."
So in your timeline Dudley wasn't the incompetent idiot like he was OTL, where he did more harm than anything else*. I assume he listened to more competent advisors here (and him gaining the credits even if he didn't deserve it, sounds like some very reasonable thing to happen).


*Actualy the most important thing he did was, was uniting the very divided Dutch against him.
 
So in your timeline Dudley wasn't the incompetent idiot like he was OTL, where he did more harm than anything else*. I assume he listened to more competent advisors here (and him gaining the credits even if he didn't deserve it, sounds like some very reasonable thing to happen).


*Actualy the most important thing he did was, was uniting the very divided Dutch against him.

Yes, the idea is that because he was sent earlier, before William the Silent's death, he has a different relationship with the dutch and is talked out of his more stupid ideas, like the embargo.
 
Excerpt from “Undoing the Magna Carta: A History of Stuart Britain”
by
Samuel Durston © Northumbrian
Pamphlets, 1998

"The magnitude of the financial problems faced by the English Crown in 1603 are worth exploring in detail.

Over two decades of war meant Elizabeth left her successor with a debt of £570,000 (though this was somewhat lessened by the fact Parliament, in return, owed her £300,000 and another £100,000 debt were 'loans' which nobody seriously intended or expected the crown to repay) and more importantly the prolonged price inflation of the 16th century had left the crown drastically underfunded.

Both Elizabeth and James were expected to fund their own peacetime expense and do so both were forced to sell huge amounts of land, which in return reduced the money they collected in rent. Which, combined with the crushing inefficiency and corruption of parliamentary taxation (James' famous saying that Normandy alone paid more taxes than all of England was probably true), meant the crown was increasingly forced to rely on other revenues
to make up for the loss. Custom duties bought in £100,000 a year upon Elizabeth's death and selling wardships, a much hated practice that meant landowners not yet at the age of majority, who automatically became under the control of the crown, effectively had temporary control of their lands sold to the highest bidder, earned the crown £140,000 in the same year.

This was however still insufficient to meet the costs of the war in Ireland. Under Elizabeth the crown was spending £300,000 a year, and was renowned for it's domestic parsimony, under James the figure quickly doubled. The result was that so did the crown's debt.[1]"


[1]Most of these figures are from OTl. But the debt Elizabeth leaves is
£120,000 higher due to a longer war and because James in TTL still has to pay for fighting in Ireland his expenditure jumps up to £600,000 rather than 'just' £400,000 which makes the problem more pressing.
 
Last edited:
Excerpt from the Nupedia Website (Translated from French).

"The Smerwick Martyrs were 3,600 Papal troops captured by English troops on the way to Ireland and executed for piracy[1]. Though not officially recognised as Martyrs by the Catholic Church in the manner of the 400 martyrs of England and Wales, their execution was greeted with outrage by catholics at the time and is often said to have contributed to the routine execution of prisoners by both English and Spanish troops in the Anglo-Islamic/Spanish War."

Excerpt from "A history of Timbuktu"
By Salim Zafrani
@ Université de Paris, 1995.

"Timbuktu, and its neighbouring cities of Jenne and Gao, had been centres of Islamic wealth and learning for centuries. And the rulers of those centres, whether Mali or Songhai, had long sent trade and gifts north to Morocco. Eventually someone was going to want to cut out the middleman and that someone was
Ahmad al-Mansur who after several raids on the salt mines declared himself Caliph in 1586, argued that the Songhai were therefore his rightful subjects and sent Judar Pasha across the Sahara with an army to claim the gold mines there.[2]

Judar arrived while the Songhai were fighting a civil war and quickly defeated any armies sent against him before his enemies could properly organise themselves before being summoned back home to help with the war against Spain.

His successors were left to organise control of three hostile cities in territory miles from their home which was by no means as rich as their sultan thought it was and from which trade caravans regularly didn't make it to Marrakech. Their answer was to make up for the shortfalls in salt and gold
by increasing shipments of black songhai slaves. In return they needed goods they could trade with the sub saharan empires and enough weapons to hold off attacks from the neighbouring Mali and Dendi kingdoms.

This trade was their lifeline and so when Morocco fell into chaos, the Pashalik of Timbuktu remained loyal to the Sultan of Marrakech even when much closer cities did not. The Moroccans in the Sahel elected their own Pasha rather than having him appointed and a lot of them had never seen Morocco but they were loyal because they needed someone to buy their slaves and send them guns."

Excerpt from the Website 'Ask an Historian.'

"Q: Did the Spanish win or lose the Anglo-Islamic/Spanish War?

A: That is a very complicated question, largely because what exactly Spain wanted out of the war depends on who you were asking and when. It is entirely true that the Spanish did not succeed in many of their more ambitious aims, they did not replace Elizabeth with a Catholic Monarch, they did not retake Constantinople, they did not succeed in making puppet states out of Brittany or Ireland. But it is also true that Spain's enemies failed in most of their goals too, they couldn't take any of Spain's territory, they couldn't break the union with Portugal and they couldn't plant a Protestant King on the throne of France.

The treaties that Philip II signed with Henry of Navarre and Philip III signed with James I, Ahmad al-Mansur, and Mehmed III were essentially conservative ones. Spain would leave them alone and they would leave Spain alone. But implict in all of them was the recognition that 'Spain' included Portugal, the New World, Southern Italy and the Low Countries. In that way Spain emerged from a war with four major powers as, theoretically at least, the most powerful country in the world. And of those powers Morocco and arguably also the Ottomans were reduced to the extent that they would never be a serious challenge again.

The downside to that was the huge losses in money, ships and men Spain endured. It is not an exageration to say that an entire generation of Spain's most talented sailors and soldiers died in that war, their private merchant marine was devastated and their economy was sent into a tailspin it never really recovered from. And without those twenty three years of war to drain spanish manpower the dutch revolt, which Spain unambiguously did lose, would have faced much stiffer opposition.

Which brings us to one of the great, true, cliches of 16th and 17th century Europe. No matter who the war was actually between, the real winners were the Dutch.

And the real losers were the Irish."

Excerpt from an Irish Song.

"
A curse upon you Kenny Mackenzie[3],
You who raped our Motherland,

I hope you're suffering immensley
,
For the horrors that you sent,

To our misfortunate forefathers,
Whom you robbed of their birthright,
May you burn in hell tonight!"

Excerpt from "Africa in the 17th Century" by G.R. Pennell
@Bristol Pamphlets, 1981.

"The death of Ahmad al-Mansur of the plague in many ways was also the death of the Moroccan state. His empire instead splintered into seveneral different states all led by Sultans that claimed control over all of Morocco.

In Marrakech the Sultan was al-Mansur's eldest son and heir, Muhammed al-Shaykh al-Mamun, who had been governor of Fes upon his father's death[4] and had killed his two brothers in the first round of the civil war. Al-Mamun was incredibly unpopular among his Arabic and Berber subjects and so ruled thanks to an elite bodyguard of Songhai slaves known as the Black Guard. His Sultanate is therefore often known as Songhai Morocco and was limited to the area around Fes and Marrakech, with it's economy being built around the slave ran sugar plantations in the Sous Valley.

At Al-Mamun's death the nominal power passed to his son, Abd el Malek
. But the real power in Songhai Morocco fell into the hands of the Grand Vizier, a position modelled after the Ottomans, which was original held by the Spanish eunuch Judar Pasha but later came to be almost exclusively held by men from the Black Guard.

To the south-east of this sultanate, the areas around the Middle Atlas mountains were held by a sufi brotherhood known as the
Dila. Unique among the various sultanates, the Brotherhood of Dila were dominated by an elite that were Berber and not Arabic and commonborn and not noble. Their rule was contested by two sources, the self proclaimed mahdi Ahmed ibn ali Mahalli, who died after leading his followers in an ill fated crusade against Songhai Morocco and, later, the
Alaouites who were the governors of Tafilalt, a famous oasis and fig farm located to the east of Songhai Morocco.

The Alaouites in particular grew in power by keeping the trade routes between Timbuktu and Marrakech open and feeding new slaves into Songhai Morrocco. Which in return meant that Marrakech relied on the Alaouites without actually commanding their loyalty. The fight to keep the trans saharan trade running was the one that
al-Mamun and his successors was most invested in.

The one they were least invested in was the fight against the Spanish, which cost them a lot of support from the religious thinkers. The capture of Melilla had been the greatest achievement of
al-Mansur's religious war. But the governor in charge of Melilla, Ahmad Hurra, had supported the dead Abu Faris Abdallah rather than his brother and so feared death at the hands of al-Mamum unless he could find a powerful patron.

The deal he made with the Spanish at Ceuta horrified most of Morocco. He would accept as his Sultan Muley Xeque[5] who's father had fled to Portugal upon losing his throne to al-Mansurs's brother. This would create a buffer zone around Melilla in the north of Morocco ruled by Spanish Islamic vassals which would protect the Christian Spanish ports (which rapidly increased in number from 2 back to 7). It also would take in the Moriscos from southern Spain who Philip III did not want[6].

'Spanish Morocco' had been the region worst hit by the plagues and famines that surrounded the civil war and the sudden addition of numerous new mouths to feed was catastrophic and provoked even further resentment against the Spanish. However Marrakech had no desire to go to war with Spain all over again.

Rabat however did. Zidan al-Masir,
al-Mamun's other brother, had worked with the English and Dutch during the war with the Spanish and so had their tacit support. His powerbase then, not surprisingly, was among the navy and the corsairs and when Zidan was killed by his brother and the Spanish reappeared along the coasts, Zidan's followers at Rabat were not prepared to follow either the Songhai Sultan or the Spanish one.

Rabat, unique among the various Moroccan states, was not a Sultanate but a Republic[7]. Each ship's captain, there was no difference between whether the ship has a corsair one or an ex naval one, had a vote. And they picked from their numbers, a governor, and head admiral who became the cities civilian and military leaders. Their first choice for the latter was obvious, Sidi al-Ayachi, the jihadist. His sole aim was to use every ship and every man at his disposal to drive the Spanish in to the sea. The result was Morocco in the north turned into one long running battle between the Corsairs and the Spanish with every Moroccan or Morisco who wanted to fight coming to Rabat or the burned out port of Sale to join al-Ayachi's Jihad.

Despite that, Rabat was also a meeting of faiths and cultures unlike anywhere else in Morocco, with a large jewish population, and was the site of many conversions as european pirates adopted Islam to work with the corsairs and Moroccans adopted Christianity so they could get jobs for the Dutch and English navies.

The second head admiral of Rabat was himself born a Christian in Holland before converting[8]."

[1] In OTL, Stukley's diversion to Morocco meant only 1,000 Papal Troops made it to Ireland. They were likewise massacred.
[2] 4 years earlier than in OTl thanks to earlier delivery of english cannons due to an earlier English-Spanish war.
[3] Kenneth Mackenzie in OTL was one of the principle actors in James VI's attempt to paciify and anglicise the western isles and highlands. The song is based on one in OTL about Oliver Cromwell, it doesn't really rhyme there either.
[4] In OTL he was removed from this position for being a brutal drink, in TTL the war with the Spanish distracts the Sultan long enough for him to remain there.
[5] In OTl he converted to christianity but ITTL his father doesn't die in a failed attempt to conquer Morocco and so his political use as a friendly muslim ruler outweighs the religious use of converting him.
[6] This means that the expulsion of the Moriscos happens in a slightly more organised fashion as there is a clear destination.
[7] The Republic of Sale in OTL was a very short lived state. That seemed a shame.
[8] That's from OTL.
 
Last edited:
I'll fully admit that the history of Morocco is an area I find fascinating and it's gonna be a secondary focus of this timeline. But it's still about ireland and britain and we will cover events there in as much detail when I get there.

It also seemed to me a cliche that whenever a timeline focused on a country like Morocco, who in our time were a moderate power who declined rapidly and had a bad time of it, that they would avoid that bad luck. In TTL, things are different for the Moroccans but they're not really better.

Also I like the irony of Moroccan Songhai and Songhai Morocco existing at the same time.

Anyway here's a very ugly map so you can see the areas I'm talking about.
oTLDGJe.png


The black outline is al-Mansur's empire. the Pashalik of Timbuktu is three cities under the red line miles away from the population centres of morocco and essentially independant but reliant on trade with Marrakech. The white space is mostly under noones control but bandits and local warlords. The coloured bands at the top are the cities and farms under direct control of one of the wannabe sultans.

So Red is the Songhai Morocco with a capital of Marrakech. Green is Spanish Morocco with a capital of Melilla. Orange is the Corsair Republic of Rabat. Yellow is the atlas mountain area controlled by the berber sufi Brotherhood of Dila. Blue is the
Alaouites with a capital of Tafilalt.

So you can kind of see from there why the Alouites and Dila are such a threat to the trade routes between Timbuktu and Marrakech.
 
I've been distracted by other threads but lets get back to this. I'll aim to put out at least one update a day for the next few weeks.

Excerpt from the Quebec Globe, 2001 (Translated from French).

"At least 43 people are feared dead in the worst bombing attack to hit Sweden since the country gained it's independence from the Russian Empire four decades ago.

The blast in the port town of Tornio, Laponia[1], at around 1830 BST on Saturday, left more than 150 people injured or maimed.

Police said they would be focusing their attention on an imperialist paramilitary group calling itself the "Army of Piety".

As fears rise that this will derail the on-going peace talks, religious and civilian leaders from both the Orthodox and Lutheran communities have denounced the terrorism."

[1] Finnish Lapland in OTL.
 
Excerpt from "A Tourist's guide to Ireland" (Translated from Spanish)
By Sergio Réxach @ Lammergeier Publishing, 1983

"Ireland these days is no longer 'a window to the middle ages' as it was once so memorably described. Alexander VI may still have been crowned as "King and Autocrat of England, Scotland, France, Ireland and the British Dominions beyond the Seas, by the grace of god" but in truth he is far from the absolute monarch his mother was.

Diplomacy and equalitarianism have undoubtedly arrived late to the emerald isle but the Irish have taken to them with enthusiasm. If their form of diplomacy still has something of an Irish character, a recent vote on whether to abolish the King's veto was preceded by a statement from the King in which it was made clear that if the vote was yes the bill would itself be vetoed and so the people overwhelming voted to keep it instead, Ireland these days in a country that fits firmly in the 20th century rather than the 13th.

Of course, the first thing must be noted to foreign visitors is that Ireland is in truth two countries. A visit to Cork, which despite it's ironic history as an English settler outpost has become the centre of what it calls the Real Ireland, is very different to a visit to the Pale and Dublin. It is not just the difference between Catholic chapels and Calvinist mosques, it is the difference between a people who see themselves as fundamentally Irish and those who still see themselves as British.

It has been over two hundred years since either England or Scotland last had a Monarch and more than three hundred since any land in France was ruled from the British Isles and yet in Dublin pubs, you can talk to men who act as if Alexander has earned his full title. It is easy to get carried away in such places and imagine that the reconquista of all the old Stuart lands will happen tomorrow but such dreams turn to mist as soon as the pub door is opened and the cold air is let in."
 
Excerpt from the Nupedia Website (Translated from French).

"The Perrot's Peace era is an informal and possibly inaccurate term for the era of Irish history between the failure of the 1578 Papal invasion of Ireland and the breakout of widespread rebellion in 1593. It gets it's name from John Perrot who served as Lord Deputy of Ireland from 1580 to 1588[1]. While the term has been wildly used in many historical texts it has also been challenged as inaccurate by modern historians who point out that English battles with the survivors of the Spanish Armada, inter Irish fighting in Leinster, the Burke rebellions and the activities of the Scottish Highland clans in Ulster who fought both the English and the Irish all took place in this time period. But it is generally considered to have been more peaceful than Ireland was in the years both before and afterwards.

Perrot himself was wildly unpopular in Dublin for his financial mismanagement and seemingly soft touch with Gaelic rebels. His arrest on charges of treason resulted in his replacement by Richard Bingham[2], which is often seen as the precursor to the Great Irish Rebellion."

Excerpt from “Undoing the Magna Carta: A History of Stuart Britain”
by Samuel Durston © Northumbrian Pamphlets, 1998

"By 1603, Portugal, England and France were all ruled by the monarch of a neighbouring country. For Henry of Navarre, the dual responsibilities were easily resolved, Navarre was so weak and France so strong that he simply made his first country a province of the second and ruled happily from Paris. Philip III could hardly do the same for Portugal and so the Portuguese government was by and large left intact and separate but Spanish power over it was enforced by Spanish men and Spanish arms. James could do neither. Scotland was not so weak that it could become a province of England nor so strong that it could hold down the English by force.

His answer was union. A Kingdom of Great Britain that would not follow English law or Scottish law but 'a sincere and perfect union' of the two. As an example, he appointed an equal amount of Scottish and English ministers in his Privy Council, a gesture undercut in the eyes of his subjects both by the existence of a Scottish only inner circle and that despite promises to return to Edinburgh every three years that he spent the rest of his life in London. In this ambition he sorely underestimated the level of dislike most English and Scottish felt for each other. The crowds that cheered his arrival in England in 1603 were cheering that the Scots had come in peace not that the Scots had come at all. An immediate union such as he proposed was unpractical and quickly rejected by the English parliament.

He needed to meld his two people together, to get them to see each other as brothers rather than enemies. Ireland, where the English were still fighting one of their most fiercely contested wars, would become the test bed of this new brotherhood. One of James' first acts as King of England was to raise a Scottish army to fight alongside the English in Ulster."

Excerpt from the Nupedia Website (Translated from French).

"The Case of Impositions was an important English legal case in 1604[3]. A merchant from the Muscovy Company, a joint stock company with monopolies on both whaling and trade with Russia, refused to pay an import duty imposed on fur. The ruling in favour of the crown was an important precedent that meant import duties could be imposed at will."

[1] Perrot in OTL wasn't made Lord Deputy until 1584 thanks to a more violent second Desmond rebellion.
[2] Governor of Connacht. In OTL the Lord Deputy appointed was instead the 62 year old William FitzWilliam.
[3] In OTL the financial situation of the crown was better and the import tax was on currants rather than the more lucrative fur trade. The 1606 Bates Case saw the Levant Company challenge this. With Fur being a more important market the case happens 2 years earlier.
 
Last edited:
Goddamn it, I keep writing updates then click reply and it turns out I've been logged out automatically so I've lost all my work. I'm going to have to rewrite this whole thing about the evolving fighting tactics of the Irish Rebels.
 
Goddamn it, I keep writing updates then click reply and it turns out I've been logged out automatically so I've lost all my work. I'm going to have to rewrite this whole thing about the evolving fighting tactics of the Irish Rebels.
That's why I always type it in a word or notepad before posting an update. In that case you always have a backup. Also useful if you want to keep what you write even if the site goes down for some reason.
 
Excerpt from "A complete History of Ireland"
By Roy Murphy,
@
Blackstaff Press 1981.

"It is often repeated that the elite Galloglass axemen who formed the heavily armoured centre of Irish war parties were Scottish mercenaries. They might well have been such in the 13th century when Norse-Gaels from the Norwegian Hebrides arrived in Ireland to escape the Norwegian Civil War but by the 16th Century they were almost all born in Ireland and taught by men themselves born in Ireland with their Scottish fighting techniques passed down by training rather than imported from the Isles.

Mercenaries did still arrive from the Hebrides and Highlands, there were nearly 7,000 Scottish warriors in Ulster at the time of Tyrone's Rebellion in 1593, but they were armed with Claymores rather than Axes and were either seasonal hires or independant actors rather than loyal members of the irish clans. They were known as Redshanks and they were flooding into Ireland primarily to escape the de-gaelicisation efforts of the man who would later become James I of Ireland.

He was initially happy to turn a blind eye to their exodus, the Gaelic Lords of the Isles had historically been the greatest internal threat to the English speaking Scottish crown, and with the Lordship broken and lowland settlement of the Isles started, James was not sad to see them go. By 1595, however, James increasingly began to see the interests of England as his interests and the flow of Scottish supplies and men into Ireland all but stopped.

This would have been a grevious blow to the O'Neill's if Turlough had still been in charge but his cousin Hugh would form a new army, an Irish army, that was superior to both
Galloglass and Redshanks. A form of peasant conscription meant he had no shortage of bodies, and his procurement of muskets from markets as far away as Spain and Poland meant they were well armed. By paying his gunmen the same three cow wage as his elite axemen and hiring English veterans to train them initially, Hugh O’Neill was able to create an army that found a degree of balance between the melee-weapon focused kern and the musket-wielding element. Split into bands 80-100 strong, accompoined by a herd of cattle to feed the marching troops and light cavalry as good any the english had, O'Neill's armies were the toughest opponents the English faced in ireland since Edward Bruce's invasion[1].

However numerous and remarkable their victories were, though, up until 1599 they were still Irish victories. Raids and ambushes which used the terrain and strong defensive positions to nulify English advantages in arms. The Irish were still incapable of beating their more experienced English opponents in an open pitched battle or siege. This was due to two reasons, their lack of effective Pikemen and their inabaility to use their captured artillary pieces effectively. In both cases the problem was simply lack of expertise and in both cases the soloution was provided in 1599 when 6,000 Spanish troops landed in Ireland[2].

The remarkable victories of 1600 and 1601 that took the Irish to the brink of victory only happened because of what Spanish gunners and pikemen added to an already fearsome army."

[1] This is all the same as OTL. But is needed for background.
[2] In OTL the Spanish army didn't arrive until 1601 and was unable to hook up with the Irish rebel force.
 
Last edited:
That's why I always type it in a word or notepad before posting an update. In that case you always have a backup. Also useful if you want to keep what you write even if the site goes down for some reason.

Yeah, good advice. That's probably the smart thing to do.
 
Excerpt from the film script "The Great Earl" (Translated from Spanish).

"FADE IN:

EXT: THE IRISH COUNTRYSIDE - DAY

Epic Beauty: Cobalt mountains beneath a glowing purple sky, a cascading landscape of heather and deep green grass and the blue loughs reflecting the sky. We hear a voice, husky, old, and with a Castilian accent.

VOICE OVER
"I will tell you of the Irish."

EXT: FARMHOUSE - DAY.

A Farmhouse and a large ban. Riding down the road that leads in from the left is a band of armed men, laughing together. Some are wearing the regalia of the Spanish army, others are more commonly dressed and have a clear Gaelic look about them.

EXT: BATTLE SCENE - EVENING.

The same men are shown again this time fighting an English Battalion. The camera focuses on a SPANISH OFFICER under attack by an English pikeman when the pikeman is suddenly shot from off screen. Camera pans left to focus on the smoking musket of an IRISH IRREGULAR.

INT: FARMHOUSE - NIGHT.

The OFFICER and IRREGULAR are eating and drinking inside the farm house. They are talking and laughing to show they are good friends. A PRETTY IRISH GIRL smiles at the Officer as she tops up his drink.

VOICE OVER
"They were the best men I ever met.""

Excerpt from a letter written by a Spanish officer in Ireland. (Translated from Spanish)

"I escaped from my English enemies by having commended myself very earnestly to our Lord, and to the Most Holy Virgin, His Mother; and with me were three hundred and odd soldiers and 1,000 of the savages, which they all are in those parts of Ireland.

The custom of these savages is to live as the brute beasts among the mountains, which are very rugged in that part of Ireland where we found ourselves. They live in huts made of straw. The men are all large bodied, and of handsome features and limbs; and as active as the roe-deer. They do not eat oftener than once a day, and this is at night; and that which they usually eat is butter with oaten bread. They drink sour milk, for they have no other drink; they don't drink water, although it is the best in the world. On feast days they eat some flesh half-cooked, without bread or salt, as that is their custom. They clothe themselves, according to their habit, with tight trousers and short loose coats of very coarse goat's hair. They cover themselves with blankets, and wear their hair down to their eyes. They are great walkers, and inured to toil. They carry on perpetual war with the English, who here keep garrison for the Queen, from whom they defend themselves, and do not let them enter their territory, which is subject to inundation, and marshy. That district extends for more than forty leagues in length and breadth. The chief inclination of these people is to be robbers, and to plunder each other; so that no day passes without a call to arms among them.

They took those of still alive to the hut of a local savage girl where we were to wait for an important savage friendly to the King of Spain to find us. I proceeded to put on again my jacket and sack-coat; moreover, some relics of great value which I wore in a small garment vestment, of the Order of the Holy Trinity, that had been given to me at Lisbon.

These the savage damsel took great interest in, saying to me that she was a Christian: which she was in like manner as Mahomet."
 
Last edited:
Excerpt from "The Counter-Factual Discussion board" (Translated from Spanish).

Hijo de Dragut said:
If Arbella Stuart had been crowned Queen of England in 1603, would Tyrone's Rebellion have succeeded?

Smirnov Martyr said:
Ah, a world without Butcher MacKenzie cutting his way through Ireland. I like this one already.

El Cider said:
I hate to play the biased Englishman here guys but there is the small matter of the 8th Baron Mountjoy to overcome first. Scottish entry into the war certainly sped up the rebel's defeat but I'm far from convinced that England wasn't going to win anyway.

ElTioJoaquin said:
Wonder what Rump Kingdom the British Monarch would end up ruling in this timeline? Greenland?

Azul Chico said:
You also have to remember that Arbella was far less likely to sign the Treaty of London than James. Imagine if more Spanish arms and men flowed into Ireland during the last years of the Great Irish Rebellion.

Blanco said:
Did we even have enough intact ships in 1604 to try that? Philip III wasn't his father, you know.

Smirnov Martyr said:
That the same Mountjoy who O'Neill made cry like a girl at Donegal, El_Cider? Blount is ridiculously overrated by the English. His only talent was burning farms.
 
Excerpt from 'the Calendar of State Papers', (translated from Spanish)

"Most Nations dislike Spain. The Irish love us.[1]"

Excerpt from the Introduction to "Tyrone's Rebellion"
By Hiram McGurk
© Northumbrian Pamphlets, 1998

"There were Irish Rebellions before Hugh O'Neill's and they were Irish Rebellions afterwards, indeed some would say there are still Irish Rebellions today. So why is it it's this one that so captures the popular imagination? Why are men like O'Neill, Stukley and
Roe O’Donnell still remembered as Heroes and men like Mountjoy, Carew and MacKenzie still remembered as Villains?

Part of it is the sheer scale of the conflict, it was a war that lasted 12 years, saw over 150,000 people dead and cost the English Crown 2 and a half million pounds to put down[2]. And it saw the gaelic way of life, destroyed once and for all. Ireland was never the same afterwards, with whole areas devastated by a brutal warfare last seen in the British Isles in 1070 and replaced by British Colonists. One only has to wander through the New Scottish towns of Ulster or the little West Country in Munster to understand the importance of the Great Irish Rebellion.

And part of it is simply that it was the one that came closest to winning. It was in many ways Irelands last and greatest hope of freedom.[3]"

Excerpt from “Undoing the Magna Carta: A History of Stuart Britain”
by Samuel Durston © Northumbrian Pamphlets, 1998

"Part of the reason for the relative success of MacKenzie compared to the English was simply the low quality of the English troops in Ireland. They were for most of the early years of the rebellion mostly in fact Irish Catholics and so of questionable loyalties.
Or they were Welsh, with the Welsh Shires contributing a disproportionate amount of men. Of the 79,000 English troops raised as levies from the English Shires from 1594 to 1606 only 36,000 fought in Ireland[4], with the majority instead being sent to France or the Netherlands instead. And what English men that were sent tended to be vagabonds and ruffians the local shires wanted rid of. That town after town appealed to the crown asking for exemptions from having too send levies at all, showed the lack of enthusiasm for the war.

The result was an ill disciplined army of low morale and, due to the astounding corruption of the civil service, rarely adequately fed and provisioned despite the crown providing all the money required[5].

MacKenzies own troops were also often shockingly ill disciplined with large gangs of impressed Border Rievers and Highland Clansmen often running riot and pillaging at will. But they had a core of Lowland Knights that were of a higher quality than any army the Irish had faced before.

It was this core that would break the Rebels at Dungannon and hand Ireland to James."

Excerpt from the Nupedia Website (Translated from French).

"The Plantations of Ireland
were the confiscation of land by the English Crown and the colinisation of this land with settlers from England, Wales and the Scottish Lowlands. The first attempt can be traced to 1556 but the main effort occured after 1606 and the suppression of the Great Irish Rebellion. By the 1630s of the 3 million inhabitants of Ireland, 150,000 were born in Great Britain[6]."

[1] That's a real OTL quote from the Spanish Council in the meeting they decided to send troops to Ireland.
[2] Those figures in OTL are 9 years, 100,000 dead and 1.9 million pounds.
[3] My justification for Hugh O'Neill becoming a William Wallace type figure in TTL but not in OTL was that William Wallace wasn't overshadowed by a Michael Collins type figure. Ireland OTL had too many more recent more succesful rebels for the same mystique to establish, in TTL they do not.
[4] In OTl Elizabeth sent 38,000 english conscripts abroad and 30,000 to Ireland.
[5] This is all from OTL.
[6] Double that of OTL for various reasons. The plantation of Ulster started earlier and the plantation of Munster started later but was not halted by rebellion.
 
Last edited:
Excerpt from "A complete History of Ireland"
By Roy Murphy, @ Blackstaff Press 1981.

"How seriously Hugh O'Neill took his faith is a matter of some dispute, the Earl of Essex is alleged to have told him that "you care for religion as much as my horse” and certainly political reasons rather than religious ones had sparked the rebellion. But once it had happened, religion was a useful tool that O'Neill used to the full. Roman Catholicism was just about the only thing the various Irish Gaelic clans had in common and it was also shared by the Old English settles, the Scottish colonies in eastern Ulster and the foreign powers of France and Spain. O'Neill attempted to form a grand coalition of all these powers against the English and the way to do that was by calling it a Holy War and getting the Pope to excommunicate any Irish Catholics who didn't join him[1].

This is not to say that there were not also political reasons for the vast support that O'Neill got. Ireland was buckling under tensions and resentment. Perrot had attempted to deal with the Irish Lords by replacing their feudal ties of loyalty with rent owed to the crown and seizing the land of any who didn't pay it and giving it to absentee landlords from England. Bingham continued the same plan but was far more brutal and attempted to provoke local rebellions so he could respond with armed force and the seizure of land. Ireland just needed a spark to set it off."

Excerpt from "Tyrone's Rebellion"
By Hiram McGurk © Northumbrian Pamphlets, 1998


"Mountjoy's greatest success was that he stopped the rot. Previous Commanders had tried to force the rebels into pitched battle and had inevitably lost thus encouraging more of their soldiers to switch sides and more towns to declare for the rebels. Mountjoy on the other hand built fortifications and roads, avoided direct battle and set about whittling away O'Neill's support, by offering pardons and gold if possible (most famously arranging a separate peace with the Highland Scots and buying the loyalty of men like Niall Garbh) and, if that didn't work, by brutally burning rebel supporting towns and provinces which led to huge loss of civilian life, both directly and through famines.

Building infrastructure, making generous deals with minor threats to help bring down larger ones and brutally targeting civilian populations in order to starve the rebels of their support were standard tactics by Mountjoy's English before the arrival of the Scots who have become so closely associated with that form of warfare.

MacKenzie had advantages that the English did not, his ability to attack into Ulster from the Highland Scot's colonies in Antrim meant his armies weren't trapped in the three passes into Tyrone's territory the way the English were, but he was following a rulebook Mountjoy had laid down."

Excerpt from “Undoing the Magna Carta: A History of Stuart Britain”
by Samuel Durston © Northumbrian Pamphlets, 1998


"Elizabeth was one of the greatest propagandists of her age and she had sold the unpopular war in Ireland as vital to protecting England from her enemies. The idea of Spanish Troops holding both Calais and Dublin as they threatened to from 1596-98 was terrifying to the average English citizen.

In this way James' victory in Ireland gave him a popularity that he spend most of the rest of his realm trying and failing to lose. He himself was a poor propagandist and the crown lost a lot of it's respect and awe as he increasingly became associated with a court that was in the public eye large, drunken, Scottish, undignified and dominated by James' homosexual lovers but he was still remembered as the saviour of Ireland and thus England and that popularity remained with him. Without that early victory it is unlikely that he could have done as much as he did."

[1]O'Neill asked for this in OTL but didn't get it. In this time with the English alliances with Muslim powers in the Mediterranean alienating them further from the Pope he gets it. This is to have consequences on James' dealing with Catholics.
 
Excerpt from "Thomas Stukley: A Rogue's Life"
By Roy Murphy, @ Blackstaff Press 1978.

"Stukley was 74 when the Great Irish Rebellion broke out and, by most accounts, was in terrible health. Why he hadn't handed himself in to the English during the 17 years since his arrival in Ireland, is a matter of some debate. Presumably after witnessing the massacre of first his papal bodyguard and then of the Spanish sailors who washed ashore in 1588, he had little evidence that mercy would be forthcoming. And as much as he was a criminal who fought for any person willing to pay him and stole and forged when no masters were forthcoming, he does seem to have had a deep and real faith which led to him wearing a hair shirt in Rome and fighting for the Holy League in their doomed effort at Lepanto and so perhaps, as Irish sources have suggested, he balked at bowing once again to a Protestant Queen.

In any case his actions at raising the Papal Banner in Desmond once again, upon the news that Hugh O'Neill, the nephew of Stukley's old friend Shane, had won a great battle against the English in Ulster, were to prove decisive. Most obviously it led to Stukley's own death as a martyr but also to the Old English joining the gaelic rebels. The defection of Cork, Galway and Limerick[1] to the rebels side can be seen as the last gift of Stukley to his adopted homeland. But also given he was still according to Spain officially the 'Duke of Ireland'[2], it helped bring legitimacy to the rebel's cause in Continental eyes."

Excerpt from the comments section of "Nina's History Blog"

"Bill- 'Butcher' MacKenzie? I'm sorry Nina but I though you were better than that. MacKenzie's actions in Ireland were brutal by today's standard yes but they were no worse than that of English or Irish commanders in the same time period. Yes, he burned Dungannon to the ground but only after O'Neill refused his generous terms of surrender.

Sturzkampf- Oh come off it with the MacKenzie apologia, Bill. It's not Dungannon that he's so hated for, as you well know. It's the deliberate cause of famine by the destruction of civilian food supplies in order to starve out rebels. And the way he profited by buying cheap land after he devastated it. Butcher is too kind a word for him if you ask me.

Bill- He didn't do anything that Carew wasn't doing in the South or that the Irish rebels weren't doing in Connacht. Oh except I forgot when the Gaels do it it's raids rather than devastation.

Sturzkampf- Oh come on, Carew didn't buy up land after he'd destroyed it and was far more willing to accept terms with rebels who gave up. (Yes, yes, I know the butcher did accept surrenders but only if they bought mercy with the heads of other rebels[3] unlike Carew who was willing to make peace unconditionally) And the Rebels didn't cause a tenth of the death toll the Scottish war crimes in Ulster did.

Bill- Because they didn't have the chance to. MacKenzie is hated not because he was unusually brutal but because he won and so had more opportunities to be brutal. And also because he was Scottish and so was a useful scapegoat by the Anglo-Irish for all the evils of British colonisation. And btw, you don't want to talk about war crimes because Dublin has done plenty of it's own from where I'm standing.

Sturzkampf- Typical Scottish moral relativity. End of the day, you genocided your own Catholics and then came into Ireland to wipe out ours. Learn it, accept it and deal with it.

Bill- Deal with this you paddie cunt.[4]"

[1] All of whom bizarrely remained loyal during OTl's nine years war and then rebelled within a week after it finished.
[2] Philip II gave Stukley this title in OTL to annoy Elizabeth.
[3] At various points in the Tudor conquest of Ireland it was policy to only accept surrender from rebels who'd proved their loyalty by killing other rebels first.
[4] Inspired by Cromwell discussions, obviously. Cromwell in OTL and MacKenzie in TTL are blamed for all the evils of British policy in Ireland because a) they were there when some particular nasty things happened and b) they're from outside the English establishment and so make a convenient scapegoat. In both cases the massacres in places like Munster on Elizabeth's orders are largely brushed under the rug.
 
Last edited:
This is a beautiful piece of literature and I'm going to have to subscribe.

Fascinating timeline, I will be intrigued to see where you take it. Consider me subscribed.

This is awesome, subscribed.

Thanks guys. I really appreciate it.

I think that's probably enough on Ireland for now. One of the difficulties of this style is by covering things from different angles I never know if I have enough detail or too much.

I absoloutely can map out the exact battles but I think there's stuff the author needs to know and things the reader does. And for the reader's it's enough to know that the irish seemed like they were winning, the pope officially came out on the side of the rebels and then James and his Scots appeared to save the day, meaning James, who was shockingly unpopular in OTL England, is instead seen as a hero.

Next we'll try and map out the Dutch Revolt which is very different in this timeline and how James' popularity and the popes actions changes his domestic and foreign policies.
 
Top