As a community, Alsace/Elsas and Lorraine/LothRingen are pretty much part of the German Rhineland culture. That being said, even today there are huge differences in culture between the different parts of Germany -not even considering all of German-speaking Europe- and the Rhineland is something of the least stereotypical when it comes to what are generally considered Prussian-German values. So Alsace/Lorraine is at the same time the most 'German' part of France as well as the most un-German part of historical Germany. So for me it is both a part of medieval Germany, the French nation and multiethnic Western Europe.
To whom did Alsace-Lorraine rightfully belong in 1870?
- Thread starter Tallil2long
- Start date
I guess to wherever the majority of the people wanted to be, which I imagine depends on their language. Wasn't it German?
The entire point and problem was that both France and Germany held legitimate claims, and both considered Alsace and Lorraine to be a part of their nations. And, between 1871 and 1919, Germany held Alsace-Lorraine - that didn't stop France from being upset about it.
Every single deputy elected by Alsace-Lorraine in her first elections as Elsass-Lothringen was a pro-French "protest-deputy". This is in 1874, after around 3% of the region's population already emigrated to France.
There would have been little worth complaining about had Germany annexed some pro-German border communities, but there were very few (if any) such communities. The great majority of the people living in A-L wanted to stay a part of France.
The annexation of Alsace-Lorraine as a whole was not something especially horrible for the standards of the time, but it was not justified.
There would have been little worth complaining about had Germany annexed some pro-German border communities, but there were very few (if any) such communities. The great majority of the people living in A-L wanted to stay a part of France.
The annexation of Alsace-Lorraine as a whole was not something especially horrible for the standards of the time, but it was not justified.
This.
Most of the Germanic-speaking peoples (Alsatians) in the map posted earlier in the thread preferred independence to both France and Germany, although that wasn't really an option.
I agree that they preferred France to Germany, but the Alsatians weren't exactly happy French citizens, although the Lorrainers are a different matter.
The inhabitants of Lorraine spoke French, and the inhabitants of Alsace spoke Alsatian. Alsatian is related to German, but it's still not German. More importantly, the Alsatians didn't really consider themselves or their language to be 'German.' There also were other languages mixed in, but those were the two primary ones by a longshot.
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Did they also annex the place for its iron ore? Having to pay for it in Francs instead of Marks might slow down the growth of the newly united Germany's economy.
The Germans bought huge quantities of iron ore from France 1933-39, most of which would have come from Alsace-Lorriane. If by some ASB Germany had kept it in 1919 (perhaps the same status as the Saar) they could have used the foreign currency saved to build up their stocks of other raw materials.
The Germans bought huge quantities of iron ore from France 1933-39, most of which would have come from Alsace-Lorriane. If by some ASB Germany had kept it in 1919 (perhaps the same status as the Saar) they could have used the foreign currency saved to build up their stocks of other raw materials.
Saphroneth
Banned
Not necessarily the case. I mean, you can be an Anglophone Kenyan without wanting to be part of the British Empire...
(As it happens, the Alsatians did not appear to be pro-German, since German Nationalists said as such - that they knew better for Alsace than the Alsatians!)
The question is, what did the Alsace-Lorraine Party platform in 1874 really demand? Were they really demanding reunification with France, or something short of that? Some of the unhappiness revolved, I thought, around A-L's lack of full state status in the Empire, and the lack of openness to senior civil service posts thereby to Alsatians and Lorrainers, along with their own local government and legislature, etc.
It would be interesting to see what the political complexion of Alsace-Lorraine in the 1870's looks like if Bismarck's advice is followed and A-L are given full state status and equality, rather than treated not unlike, say, Tanganyika. "The more they feel like Alsatians, the less they'll feel like Frenchmen."
That's an interesting factor. After the German annexation, many voiced pro-French sentiment. After the French re-annexation, many voiced pro-German sentiment. I seem to recall historical statements by some Bavarians that they'd rather be ruled by France than Prussia. In 1871, French reactionaries were saying "Better the Prussians than the Republic".
It becomes an interesting question at what point we should assume that the true popular will is being voiced. I suspect that only a free plebiscite can determine that; otherwise, it's likely to be more of a protest against enforced circumstances than anything else.
I don´t think that owning a land for some years gives you rightful control of it, anyway neither France nor Germany really respected what Alsatians were, France always enforced their stupid linguistic/cultural assimilation and at the same time Germany brutally treated the land and the French minority like colonies and natives to push away.
-From a Geographic prospective Vosges are a better border than the Rhine because actually the River unites people and cultures and the "mountains" divide, the later is the reason why the German-French linguistic border is here probably.
-From a Linguistic prospective is clear that Germany or another German(ic) country should own this land. Yes I know that language isn´t everything but is a big factor.
-From a Historic prospective is hard to say, like I said before time doesn´t matter. France probably is responsible of the death of many Alsatians in the area during 30 Years War, however during German control many and many fled but at the same time after France re-annexed after WW1 many Germans fled. The Alsatians that voted for the Alsatians weren´t actually all pro-French, the party was alliance between French, Catholics and other minorities against Prussia. And in 1870 there is still the possibility that the German Empire integrates this territory as a normal member and this would change a lot the Alsatian situation. I don´t think the word of some intellectuals would represent the whole situation or German mentality.
-From a Geographic prospective Vosges are a better border than the Rhine because actually the River unites people and cultures and the "mountains" divide, the later is the reason why the German-French linguistic border is here probably.
-From a Linguistic prospective is clear that Germany or another German(ic) country should own this land. Yes I know that language isn´t everything but is a big factor.
-From a Historic prospective is hard to say, like I said before time doesn´t matter. France probably is responsible of the death of many Alsatians in the area during 30 Years War, however during German control many and many fled but at the same time after France re-annexed after WW1 many Germans fled. The Alsatians that voted for the Alsatians weren´t actually all pro-French, the party was alliance between French, Catholics and other minorities against Prussia. And in 1870 there is still the possibility that the German Empire integrates this territory as a normal member and this would change a lot the Alsatian situation. I don´t think the word of some intellectuals would represent the whole situation or German mentality.
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Certainly. But my question was, upon what was French nationalism based? If it wasn't language, religion, ethnicity, cultural affinity, the measured preference of the inhabitants, or anything of that nature, I have to wonder if it was merely "What France can once conquer, that is forever France".
If so, that's fine; I'm not trying to impose my 21st century values backwards in time. But if this is pretty much the case, then it'll impact how I write future TLs.
As will the apparent German nationalist preoccupation with language.
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It gets complicated, indeed.
For my own part, the fact that France constantly carried war, rapine and pillage towards the Rhine in search of expansion, predisposes me towards Germany. But I recognize that that's mostly an emotional thing, and the issue involves far more concrete factors.
I think it was based upon the idea that Alsace-Lorraine, despite once being part of the Holy Roman Empire, at that point in 1870 had been French for hundreds of years, and had been involved in many important events of French history (especially the French Revolution-the anthem was written in Strasbourg!)...
It's kinda like how Taiwanese are considered separate from mainland Chinese, despite Taiwan being part of China under the Qing dynasty (if not count de jure that it's supposed to be so now), due to the fact that the Taiwanese experienced a separate history than the mainlanders did (witness the differing views that they have over Imperial Japan).
Like the Germans back then, the mainland Chinese do see Taiwan as Chinese territory, and Taiwanese as Chinese, based on Taiwan being under Qing dynasty rule and Taiwanese people speaking Chinese...
Okay, I can see the value of the duration-of-possession argument. Of course, how long did the HRE possess the region prior to the French annexation?
On the other hand, I suspect France was just as possessive of A-L in 1815, 1770, and 1700 as it was in 1870. Which suggests the possibility that it's really just a continuity of "We conquered it, so it's ours", but slightly more hallowed because of increased age.
But then, probably most of the world's borders are based originally on that, so I'm not exactly judging the ideal.
If anything, I'm starting to marvel at just how curious the modern concept of the nation-state is: it's built on the most extraordinary mishmash of concepts.
And why Israel is bigger than in 1948, I guess. Wow, this principle does get problematic.
Except that popular self-determination was a concept still making its way into geopolitical consciousness at that time.
France lost Alsace-Lorraine because she was defeated in war, crushingly - plain and simple. Without the war, the territory is still French in 1872.
And yet, this does not end the analysis. Alsace-Lorraine was French in 1870 because French arms conquered it, French arms retained it, and no foreign power had been inclined to challenge it for some years. Louis XIV did not poll the inhabitants of Alsace when he annexed it, and Louis XV did not do so with Lorraine, either. They were taken by force, and what the locals wanted was neither here nor there.
By the early 20th century, however, such concerns could no longer be ignored. Of course, self-determination can be messy, too, especially when it turns out that you can't produce clear borders with it, and mutually antagonistic groups are living cheek by jowl with each other (see: the pre-war Austro-Hungarian Empire).
Had Germany not gone to war with France - or had won it - I expect this would be an unlikely exercise even on alt-history forums; Alsace-Lorraine would be so much a part of German society that it would hardly be questioned outside the most revanchist fringes of whatever existed in French society. Even with the Zabern Affair, it was still largely reconciled to German rule by the outbreak of the Great War, and local autonomy parties could no longer poll a majority in elections.
Again, though, the smart play would have been Bismarck's: given them ample autonomy and self-government from the start. The result could well have been communities with such a strong sense of self-identity (an identity more in tune with similar communities on the other side of the Rhine than Paris, to boot) that any French reacquisition would have been a very difficult feat, and the more likely long-term result would be one or more independent states. French demands for its return would ring increasingly unrealistic and quixotic on the larger world stage that was ever more sensitive to self-determination.
In the 19th century the concept of self-determination doesn't really exist. France, Prussia and the German Empire weren't really democratic even if there were elections. Today this is different because we know that democracy is a good thing and all people have human rights. In the Context of the question to whom Alsace-Lorraine belonged to in 1870 it's the side with the most guns. However this isn't Political Chat but After 1900.