TL-191: Filling the Gaps

[Zoidberg12]

I would recommend moving Clement Vallandigham to the 1869-1873 slot. Craigo's updated entry on the 1868 presidential election list Vallandigham as one of President Seymour's critics. It would be very unusual for a Secretary of State to openly be criticizing his president. (Also, the Fugitive Slave Treaty that Vallandigham negotiated is listed as an achievement of President Hendricks, which suggests Vallandigham was Hendricks' Secretary of State.)

For the 1865-1869 slot, how about James Bayard? He was extremley pro-southern, so having him as Secretary of State would fit with the Seymour Administration's accomodationist attitude to the CSA. Craigo's revised 1868 presidential election entry also makes reference to a Bayard-Hunter Treaty, so it seems like a Bayard was negotiating on behalf of the United States during the Seymour Administration. (And since Thomas Bayard is also listed as one of President Seymour's harshest critics, that means it was probably his father, James, who negotiated the treaty.)

And on the subject of Thomas Bayard, he could fit in well as Secretary of State either in 1877-1881 or sometime in the 1885-1889 period. (President Hancock might not want a leading doughface as his Secretary of State, but maybe he had to make that concession to the Soft Line Democrats to win the nomination, or maybe Hancock did appoint someone else, but the Soft-Liner Thurman sacked Hancock's chosen Sec. of State and appointed Thomas Bayard when he took office.)

As for the 1937 to 1941 spot, maybe Sumner Welles would work there?

Good suggestions. I have a few questions though. If Thomas Bayard is Secretary of State from 1877 to 1881, then would would be Hancock's Secretary of State? I also agree that however was Hancock's Secretary of State would be sacked by President Thurman and replaced with someone else. But who would this someone else/Thurman's Secretary of State be?

I agree with Sumner Welles as Secretary of State as well. Very good choice.

 

[President Mahan]

Good suggestions. I have a few questions though. If Thomas Bayard is Secretary of State from 1877 to 1881, then would would be Hancock's Secretary of State? I also agree that however was Hancock's Secretary of State would be sacked by President Thurman and replaced with someone else. But who would this someone else/Thurman's Secretary of State be?

How about Levi P. Morton as Hancock's secretary of state. He was Harrisons running mate, but in tourquoise Blue's NY Governor post she has him being a former Democratic Governor of NY.

 

[Turquoise Blue]

Since I created a bunch of fictional Republican characters, I might as well develop them...

Alexander "Alex" Richards
Republican Senator from Kansas
Republican candidate for Vice-President (1908)
A poor farmboy who gradually grew up to be a fairly prosperous farmer, he always had an interest in the Republican Party, and joined them at their worst period (1883). Entered the State House of Representatives in 1885 and quickly rose in the ranks. When Kansas managed to vote through a Republican-Socialist coalition in the Congress after a bit of local dominance by the Democrats, they nominated Alex Richards, a known moderate and well-liked by Kansans. Even some Democrats voted for him. In the Senate, he was primarily concerned about boosting Kansas and benefiting the state, with some claiming he cared about his state more than he did the USA (something he repeatedly denied). A popular local man, he was chosen by the Republican candidate (not Philander Knox, he was retconned Democratic) as vice-president and Kansas easily went for the ????/Richards ticket. In 1922, he decided to retire and died in 1927.

John "Jack" Hounsome
Republican Representative from Nebraska
Republican candidate for Vice-President (1916)
Often called "The Hound of Holrege" for his stubborness ('almost like a hunting dog'. Also play on his last name) and for his residence (Holrege, Nebraska). A man of the plains, he was naturally inclined to the Republican Party, joining them in 1892 and running for a House seat in 1894 (which he narrowly lost to a rival Republican running as an "Independent Republican"), he won the seat in 1896 and represented that seat for 30 years, rising quickly in House Republican circles and finally ending up the House Leader (aka the man who all House Republican Reps listen to) in 1911. Theodore E. Burton (or whoever the Reps choose in 1916) chose him as his veep. He held his seat that year and finally retired in 1927. In 1928, he said that he preferred Hosea Blackford to Calvin Coolidge because Blackford was a Plains man. Died in 1931.

Dennis Wilkinson
Republican Governor of Missouri
Republican candidate for Vice-President (1928)
One of the Republican Party's unlikely successes in this era, Dennis Wilkinson successfully exploited a public disillusion with the Democrats and the relative weakness of the Socialists to narrowly win over Democrat incumbent Arthur Hyde and Socialist Marvin Aldrich in 1920. Re-elected by a slighter bigger margin over Socialist Wesley Cox and Democrat Sam Baker, he was chosen by Frank Lowden as veep to add executive experience (something the Republicans was seriously lacking by 1928). Henry Caulfield, a Democrat, succeeded him. He died in 1938.

Edward "Ted" Anderson
Republican Senator from Nebraska
Republican candidate for Vice-President (1944)
A "New Republican", he came from the growing city of Omaha. Nevertheless, he always managed to make the farmers of Nebraska feel that he was one of them and was re-elected for two terms with strong support from urban and rural. Ted Anderson was chosen by Harold Stassen to add legislative experience to the ticket and to ensure farmers turned out for the urban liberal Stassen. The Stassen/Anderson ticket proved somewhat successful. Anderson retired in the 50s.

 

[bguy]

Good suggestions. I have a few questions though. If Thomas Bayard is Secretary of State from 1877 to 1881, then would would be Hancock's Secretary of State? I also agree that however was Hancock's Secretary of State would be sacked by President Thurman and replaced with someone else. But who would this someone else/Thurman's Secretary of State be?

Have we done anything with John Reynolds yet? If not then perhaps he could be Hancock's Secretary of State. They were friends OTL so Hancock might very well want him in his Cabinet, and since there was no Battle of Gettysburg in TL-191, Reynolds would have survived the War of Secession. (He would be getting up in years by 1888 but would not be so old that it would be inconceivable for him to be Secretary of State.)

Then we could have Thurman sack Reynolds and replace him with Morton when he assumes the Presidency.

Also for the 1933 to 1937 spot what about either Robert McCormick or John Davis?

 

[Turquoise Blue]

Also for the 1933 to 1937 spot what about either Robert McCormick or John Davis?

The first guy's a Republican, sorry to tell ya.

 

[bguy]

The first guy's a Republican, sorry to tell ya.

D'oh! Maybe Charles Dawes then.

 

[Zoidberg12]

How about Levi P. Morton as Hancock's secretary of state. He was Harrisons running mate, but in tourquoise Blue's NY Governor post she has him being a former Democratic Governor of NY.

D'oh! Maybe Charles Dawes then.

I approve of both of these choices.

Also, two questions for Turquoise Blue. First of all, could James H. Kyle be Powderly's running mate in 1896 and Charles H. Matchett Coxey's running mate in 1900? I'll edit the 1896 election article as soon as this is cleared up.

Secondly, Philander C. Knox can still be the Republican candidate in 1908, as bguy mentioned in Part 3 of his Nelson Aldrich article that Knox left the Democrats and joined the Republicans over President Aldrich's anti-union policies, and that the Republicans nominated him in 1908 to get over their perception of regional a western party.

 

[Turquoise Blue]

I approve of both of these choices.

Also, two questions for Turquoise Blue. First of all, could James H. Kyle be Powderly's running mate in 1896 and Charles H. Matchett Coxey's running mate in 1900? I'll edit the 1896 election article as soon as this is cleared up.

Yeah, sounds fine to me. Maybe later you can do something for Ignatius.

 

[Turquoise Blue]

Here's a list of Governors of Minnesota...

02: Alexander Ramsay (Republican) 1860-1863
03: Henry A. Swift (Republican) 1863-1864
04: Charles D. Sherwood (Republican) 1864-1868
05: Horace Austin (Republican) 1868-1870
06: William H. Yale (Republican) 1870-1874
07: James B. Wakefield (Republican) 1874-1880
08: Charles A. Gilman (Republican) 1880-1882
09: Albert E. Rice (Republican) 1882-1884
10: William Rush Merriam (Republican) 1884-1886
11: Daniel W. Lawler (Democratic) 1886-1890
12: Knute Nelson (Independent Republican) 1890-1892
13: George L. Becker (Democratic) 1892-1898
14: David M. Clough (Democratic) 1898-1902
15: John A. Johnson (Independent Republican) 1902-1909*
16: James Gray (Independent Republican) 1909-1910
17: Adolph O. Eberhart (Democratic) 1910-1916
18: J. A. A. Burnquist (Democratic) 1916-1918
19: David H. Evans (Socialist-Farmer-Labor) 1918-1922
20: J. A. O. Preus (Democratic) 1922-1924
21: Magnus Johnson (Socialist-Farmer-Labor) 1924-1930
22: Raymond P. Chase (Democratic) 1930-1934
23: Elmer A. Benson (Socialist-Farmer-Labor) 1934-1940
24: Harold Stassen (Republican) 1940-1944
25: Thomas F. Gallagher (Republican) 1944-19??

All can be changeable, of course.

 

[Zoidberg12]

Yeah, sounds fine to me. Maybe later you can do something for Ignatius.

Okay, the 1896 election article, as well as my list of US Presidential and Vice-Presidential candidates, has been edited. James H. Kyle is now Powderly's running mate in 1896 and Charles H. Matchett Coxey's running mate in 1900. Also, I loved your bios on your fictional Republican characters and your list of governors of Minnesota. Could you do the governors of my home state of New Jersey next?

Also, I'm starting to write an article on the Russian Civil War, which is also a sequel to Craigo's article entitled "Karl Liebcknecht, Rosa Luxemburg, Vladimir Lenin and the Russian Civil War". However I need some help on how the war itself would pan out. Heres what some of what I already have pinned down;

• The Tsarist/White movement would be more unified than OTL, thus their victory.
• The Treaty of Brest-Litovsk would occur much like OTL.
• The Entente powers, save for maybe Japan and Great Britain, are in no shape to intervene on behalf of the Tsarists.
• Tsar Micheal II comes to the throne during the Civil War.
• Admiral Alexander Kolchak will play a major role in winning the civil war for the Tsarists.
• According to President Mahan's article "The US Mark I and German A7V Barrel", Germany and her Eastern European puppet states fight alongside the Tsarists against the Soviets from sometime after Brest-Litovsk until 1923.

Some things I need help on though however are;

• How does Nicholas II die? Are he and his family executed like OTL?
• How would no OTL Allied intervention affect the war?

 

[Turquoise Blue]

Governors of California
07: John G. Downey (Democratic) 1860-1862
08: Pablo de la Guerra (Democratic) 1862-1867
09: Henry H. Haight (Democratic) 1867-1871
10: Romauldo Pacheco (Republican) 1871-1875
11: William Irwin (Democratic) 1875-1880
12: George C. Perkins (Republican) 1880-1883
13: George Stoneman (Democratic) 1883-1887
14: Washington Bartlett (Democratic) 1887-1891
15: James Budd (Democratic) 1891-1895
16: Spencer G. Millard (Republican) 1895-1899
17: Henry Gage (Democratic) 1899-1903
18: James Gillett (Republican) 1903-1907
19: Hiram Johnson (Republican) 1907-1911
20: Samuel M. Shortridge (Democratic) 1911-1919
21: Friend Richardson (Democratic) 1919-1923
22: Austen Lewis (Socialist) 1923-1927
23: Samuel A. Darcy (Socialist) 1927-1931
24: Frank Merriam (Democratic) 1931-1935
25: Culbert Olson (Socialist) 1935-1943
26: Earl Warren (Democratic) 1943-

 

[Turquoise Blue]

Governors of Dakota
01: John Miller (Democratic) 1899-1893
02: Roger Allin (Democratic) 1893-1897
03: Eli C. D. Shortridge (Dakotan People's) 1897-1901
04: Andrew E. Lee (Dakotan People's) 1901-1905
05: Robert S. Vessey (Democratic) 1905-1913
06: Carl Gunderson (Democratic) 1913-1917
07: Peter Norbeck (Democratic) 1917-1921
08: Lynn Frazier (Socialist People's) 1921-1925
09: William McMaster (Socialist People's) 1925-1933
10: George F. Shafer (Democratic) 1933-1937
11: A. C. Townley (Socialist People's) 1937-1945
12: Tom Berry (Socialist People's) 1945-

Basically the state Dakotan Republicans, Socialists and Populists decided to merge into the Dakotan People's Party to prevent Democratic dominance due to vote-splitting. This ended up unstable and pushed centrists to the Democrats. The DPP split and the new Socialist People's Party was founded (as well as a new Dakotan Republican Party). Lots of socialist stuff came from this, like the state-owned Bank of Dakota.

Make note that the Dems of Dakota is incredibly moderate, like the New England Republicans in OTL.

 

[bguy]

Governors of California

Good list. The only issues I can see with it are that my Aldrich bio already had Hiram Johnson as the Governor of California in 1908, Craigo's Jerry Voorhis entry had Hiram Johnson in the Senate in the 1920s, and Craigo named Earl Warren "Magnus Warren" in his Multipartisanship in the US Cabinet entry. (Though after rereading that one we've apparently already violated it by having Smith appoint Henry Stimson as Secretary of State.)

 

[Turquoise Blue]

Good list. The only issues I can see with it are that my Aldrich bio already had Hiram Johnson as the Governor of California in 1908, Craigo's Jerry Voorhis entry had Hiram Johnson in the Senate in the 1920s, and Craigo named Earl Warren "Magnus Warren" in his Multipartisanship in the US Cabinet entry. (Though after rereading that one we've apparently already violated it by having Smith appoint Henry Stimson as Secretary of State.)

OK, shifted stuff around with Johnson and Shortridge and replaced Hiram Johnson with Austen Lewis. I think he meant Warren Magnuson there.

 

[President Mahan]

Okay, the 1896 election article, as well as my list of US Presidential and Vice-Presidential candidates, has been edited. James H. Kyle is now Powderly's running mate in 1896 and Charles H. Matchett Coxey's running mate in 1900. Also, I loved your bios on your fictional Republican characters and your list of governors of Minnesota. Could you do the governors of my home state of New Jersey next?

Also, I'm starting to write an article on the Russian Civil War, which is also a sequel to Craigo's article entitled "Karl Liebcknecht, Rosa Luxemburg, Vladimir Lenin and the Russian Civil War". However I need some help on how the war itself would pan out. Heres what some of what I already have pinned down;

• The Tsarist/White movement would be more unified than OTL, thus their victory.
• The Treaty of Brest-Litovsk would occur much like OTL.
• The Entente powers, save for maybe Japan and Great Britain, are in no shape to intervene on behalf of the Tsarists.
• Tsar Micheal II comes to the throne during the Civil War.
• Admiral Alexander Kolchak will play a major role in winning the civil war for the Tsarists.
• According to President Mahan's article "The US Mark I and German A7V Barrel", Germany and her Eastern European puppet states fight alongside the Tsarists against the Soviets from sometime after Brest-Litovsk until 1923.

Some things I need help on though however are;

• How does Nicholas II die? Are he and his family executed like OTL?
• How would no OTL Allied intervention affect the war?

• We know the russians drop out of the war before the french.
• In the books there are no references to Nicholas the II or his family.
• In the American Empire/The Center Cannot Hold books we have people laughing about the names of the Bolsheviks like the man of steel and the hammer. From the position of the remark I infered that the bolsheviks were still active by 1924. The war could largely be over but, they were still fighting
• We know from the books that Japanese scientists are active in Mongolia and digging up dinosaur bones.

In OTL the allies really only created safe havens for the whites to operate or defended strategically important points like Archangel and parts of the transiberian railroad. Obviously there involvement was not decisive. They lacked the will to really get involved. You can bet a triumphant German Empire would be heavily involved. Not only providing arms and logistics, but providing troops.

Somethings never addressed by Craigo or the books include: Finland, the Baltic States, the Caucuses. If you read Germany's Aims in the First World War
by Fritz Fischer, by 1917 controlling the Caucuses was big on Germany's plans. The Baltic Republics were also selected for colonization and Germanization like east Prussia. Yet from my scan of the books neither are mentioned.

We also know that during the 2ND Great War the Russians almost capture Warsaw and unlike its other allies Russia's military tactics were mostly the same as in the first great war.

 

[ThePest179]

[*]In the American Empire/The Center Cannot Hold books we have people laughing about the names of the Bolsheviks like the man of steel and the hammer. From the position of the remark I infered that the bolsheviks were still active by 1924. The war could largely be over but, they were still fighting

Weren't there mentions of communists still operating after the civil war?

 

[Zoidberg12]

Okay, I did some more research of my own, and heres a final list of the US Secretaries of State. If anything needs to be changed just let me know.

List of Secretaries of State of the United States of America (1790-1949)

1. Thomas Jefferson (Democratic-Republican) (1790-1793)
2. Edmund Jennings Randolph (Federalist) (1794-1795)
3. Timothy Pickering (Federalist) (1795-1800)
-. Charles Lee (acting) (1800)
4. John Marshall (Federalist) (1800-1801)
-. Levi Lincoln, Sr. (acting) (1800)
5. James Madison (Democratic-Republican) (1801-1809)
6. Robert Smith (Democratic-Republican) (1809-1811)
7. James Monroe (Democratic-Republican) (1811-1817)
-. John Graham (acting) (1817)
-. Richard Rush (acting) (1817)
8. John Quincy Adams (Democratic-Republican) (1817-1825)
-. Daniel Brent (acting) (1825)
9. Henry Clay (Democratic-Republican) (1825-1829)
-. James A. Hamilton (acting) (1829)
10. Martin Van Buren (Democratic) (1829-1831)
11. Edward Livingston (Democratic) (1831-1833)
12. Louis McLane (Democratic) (1833-1834)
13. John Forsyth (Democratic) (1834-1841) †
-. Jacob L. Martin (acting) (1841)
14. Daniel Webster (Whig) (1841-1843)
-. Hugh S. Legaré (acting) (1843)
-. William S. Derrick (acting) (1843)
15. Abel P. Upshur (Whig) (1843-1844) †
-. John Nelson (acting) (1844)
16. John C. Calhoun (Democratic) (1844-1845)
17. James Buchanan (Democratic) (1845-1849)
18. John M. Clayton (Whig) (1849-1850)
19. Daniel Webster (Whig) (1850-1852) †
-. Charles M. Conrad (acting) (1852)
20. Edward Everett (Whig) (1852-1853)
-. William Hunter (acting) (1853)
21. William Learned Marcy (Democratic) (1853-1857)
22. Lewis Cass (Democratic) (1857-1860)
-. William Hunter (acting) (1860)
23. Jeremiah Sullivan Black (Democratic) (1860-1861)
24. William Seward (Republican) (1861-1864)
25. Charles Sumner (Republican) (1864-1865)
26. James Bayard (Democratic) (1865-1869)
27. Clement Vallandigham (Democratic) (1869-1873)
28.William Allen (Democratic) (1873-1877)
29. Thomas Bayard (Democratic) (1877-1881)
30. Hannibal Hamlin (Republican) (1881-1885)
31. Levi P. Morton (Democratic) (1885-1886)
32. Thomas Bayard (Democratic) (1886-1889)
33. John W. Foster (Democratic) (1889-1893)
34. Walter Q. Gresham (Democratic) (1893-1895) †
-. Edwin F. Uhl (acting) (1895)
35. Nelson Dingley, Jr. (Democratic) (1895-1897)
36. Richard Olney (Democratic) (1897-1901)
37. Henry Cabot Lodge (Democratic) (1901-1905)
38. William Rufus Day (Democratic) (1905-1913)
39. Robert Lansing (Democratic) (1913-1921)
40. Eugene V. Debs (Socialist) (1921-1925)
41. John Dewey (Socialist) (1925-1929)
42. William Z. Foster (Socialist) (1929-1933)
43. Charles Dawes (Democratic) (1933-1937)
44. Sumner Welles (Socialist) (1937-1941)
45. Henry L. Stimson (Democratic) (1941-1949)

†=Died in Office

 

[Wade M Robinson]

Sumner Welles (Socialist) (1937-1941)

Did this Sumner Welles have the same scandal involving 2 black male Pullman car porters ? The Freedomites would have made mincemeat of him if they caught wind of that .

 

[President Mahan]

Weren't there mentions of communists still operating after the civil war?

yes they were Settling Accounts and American Empire series. More than one POV spoke about Bolshevicks were still operating into the late 20's and 30's. There was a few references to Russia having to deal with Red and subject peoples terrorist bombs. When the Russia sued for peace after the Petrograd was superbombed, there was mention that Russia was descending into civil war. I think there was a quick reference to many Reds having died in the Petrograd bombing.

 

[Zoidberg12]

Did this Sumner Welles have the same scandal involving 2 black male Pullman car porters ? The Freedomites would have made mincemeat of him if they caught wind of that .

Maybe the scandal happens IITL, mabye it dosn't or maybe a similar/analogous incident occurs. This is an interesting point though. I might write a bio on him later (my next bio will be on Frank Knox btw).