The Union Forever: A TL

A fair assessment. I still disagree on Formosa but I could see it going that way. I could see an attempt be made but it could fail badly too. Though a blockade is almost a certainty with the whole Commonwealth navy and the US navy now able to muster the full weight on Japan alone.

Although if Japan calls for peace before any assault on it...well what is asked for and what the allies get it one thing. If a truce is granted to settle peace terms will the Commonwealth citizens really want to die for Chinese territorial ambitions?

Very doubtful. I know the US will want to draw some blood for what is done, that enthusiasm will soon wane once the initial blows are had.

As for the Commonwealth, I do believe they will assist through the capture of Hainan. The Chinese are going to be primary invasion forces, I imagine, but the Commonwealth is going to have to keep the seas clear. After one more bloody battle, it may be time to sue for peace.

As for Formosa, I don't see the Japanese seeking peace until after the fall of Hainan. If they surrender earlier, they could keep it. Or, as the island has always been odd, compared to the mainland, they could try and establish a Republic of Taiwan on the island as a compromise. :p Frankly, that could go either way. The only certainty that I can say is that Hainan will fall. (after all, I believe I remember a mention of the Chinese from Hainan leaving for the US, as China didn't want them. I wonder if that will come up)

It'll be interesting if they actually surrender now that they are left to stand alone.
 
It'll be interesting if they actually surrender now that they are left to stand alone.

I second this. The best they can still get is to withdraw their interests in China (basically hand back concessions gained in previous Unequal Treaties) if there still are any, Hainan and possibly Formosa included. They will more than likely not accept complete surrender just yet.
 
This may be a bit off topic, but what is the status of France and Italy, and the extent of colonization in their African colonies? In the original, I think you mentioned that a majority of the residents were from the respective countries at the turn of the century.

Also, what are the language policies of the two states? Are the regional languages stronger than OTL (esp in France with Alsatian, Occitan, Breton, Basque etc) with a larger more accessible core land? I'm not sure which dialects/cultures are primarily the ones leaving for Algeria/Tunis/Tripolitania. Or, are the language policies of OTL in place?
 
Return of Taiwan and Hainan to China, independence of Korea, democratization and the banning of the Kobushi Party. Probably.

Well there hasn't been such a gigantic war since TTL's Great War just after the turn of the 20th century. Seems that, like OTL, the 'Great War' was seen as the war to end all wars. After that, it has been mostly colonial/imperial conflicts or regional conflicts. The biggest war between TTL's Great War and the war that just ended was the war between Japan and China. All considerations of who started each conflict aside, there will probably be a popular perception that Japan has caused a lot of war this century.

So take that how you will.

I think that is what they will demand but Japan isn't going to give into that. No sane government would unless their cities are smashed, their home territory under occupation or threat of it. None of the core Japanese territory has fallen why should they give it up?

What is more interesting is what will the allies settle for?

I think, and this is just my two cents. Withdraw from any occupied territory they still are in, Hainan back to China (China will demand Formosa/Taiwan and other islands nearby but the rest of the allies are not going to keep pressing for war over it leaving China rather disgruntled but with no way to take it on their own), war reparations, and some kind of plan for Korea. Either increased Korean involvement in the Imperial government or a plan for decolonization. They would probably also ask for any war criminals (if that is a thing) to be turned over for trial (especially those involved in shooting down the US civilian airliner).

My thought on this is thus: The US has no real reason or need to pursue a death struggle in the western Pacific, sure there was the downing of the airliner thing but the Japanese apologized and paid some monies for that, IIRC. The Commonwealth is war weary and has achieved their main objectives -freeing the occupied Commonwealth countries and destroying that which threatened it. China is really the only one who benefits from pressing the war (and since they were being bombed by the Japanese have good reason to want to continue it).

Wouldn't it be crazy if China had secretly developed nukes? I mean they're a technocracy; it wouldn't be that much of a stretch for them to have the scientific capability before anyone predicted they would.

It's good to see Chile committed to there duty in the LAR!!!!:D:D:D:D

Besides the loss of outer territories, and democratization, there might be demilitarisation, and some Commonwealth/US military presence to ensure things go that way.

Well, I find myself agreeing with Shadow Knight on most parts, and the general sentiment.

There is definitely going to be a sentiment among the Commonwealth to punish Japan, so the war is going to continue due to inertia. Once casualties start to mount from attacks on the home islands, though, there will be calls for peace.

After all, India, the Indochinese nations, and Venezuela have all been defeated. The vast alliance network has been disassembled, so for the foreseeable future Japan will find itself alone among the states of the world. It will have to moderate itself naturally in order to interact with even its former allies, much less its enemies. Or so will be the thought of those that say enough will be enough.

Hainan will be retaken. That much is known. I'll disagree and say that Formosa will most likely be retaken for the Chinese as well, but only after a long blockade and as part of the conditions for surrender. As for Korea... I had forgotten that China no longer has land access to the peninsula. In order for them to retake it, they would either need to gain access through the IEF (doubtful, as they definitely don't want China strengthened with a puppet Korean government) or they will have to do an invasion across the sea into Korea, which probably would be as difficult as invading the home islands.

Once the writing is on the wall, and before the 4 home islands are threatened, the Japanese will sue for peace. They can point to the model used for the French in the Great War. After all, the terms of the treaty, while harsh, did not disturb Metropolitan France and its largest, and geographically closest colony that contained a large number of French nationals. That, and they replaced monetary reforms with territorial concessions. If they know that they'll lose Hainan/Formosa anyways...

Upon those generic lines, I estimate that the following treaty for Japan and the Indochinese nations would be as follows:

1.Siam will have all territories annexed at the Treaty of Jaykarta restored to her.
2.China will have the islands of Hainan and Formosa restored to her. She will also be granted the Paracel Islands, the Pratas Islands, and the Diaoyu Islands.
3.China will be granted dominion over Indochina, as defined as Vietnam, Laos, Campuchea, and Siam.
4.China will allow Japanese nationals that inhabit the restored territories to freely return to Japan for a certain allotment of time. (Say 6 Months) After that period, Japanese nationals that do not leave will not be granted citizenship, and would have to proceed with the standard naturalization process.
5.Japanese nationals that do not wish to return to Japan and do not wish to remain may be allowed to instead emigrate to any allied nation that deigns to take them in.
6.Japan will retain the Ryukyu islands, the Bonin islands, the Korean peninsula, and all other islands that were controlled by Japan at the beginning of the war.

One and Three are related, and give a bit of a counterweight in a larger Siam to the Chinese. Otherwise, all of Indochina would easily be dominated.

Two should satisfy China's territorial ambitions for the moment. I don't see how the Paracel islands don't go to them. The only nation would would take them would be Vietnam, and at this point...

Four and Five relate to the expulsion of the Han from Hainan and the subsequent resettling of the Japanese onto the island. It will also allow a few defectors that don't wish to go back or stay in China to leave and go elsewhere, although there aren't many nations that open their doors. And those that do leave for another country are almost certainly to be on a case by case basis.

Six just solidifies the Japanese claim on Korea. With all of the nationals expelled from Hainan and Formosa, they have a large number of citizens that can be resettled in Korea.

A fair assessment. I still disagree on Formosa but I could see it going that way. I could see an attempt be made but it could fail badly too. Though a blockade is almost a certainty with the whole Commonwealth navy and the US navy now able to muster the full weight on Japan alone.

Although if Japan calls for peace before any assault on it...well what is asked for and what the allies get it one thing. If a truce is granted to settle peace terms will the Commonwealth citizens really want to die for Chinese territorial ambitions?

Very doubtful. I know the US will want to draw some blood for what is done, that enthusiasm will soon wane once the initial blows are had.

As for the Commonwealth, I do believe they will assist through the capture of Hainan. The Chinese are going to be primary invasion forces, I imagine, but the Commonwealth is going to have to keep the seas clear. After one more bloody battle, it may be time to sue for peace.

As for Formosa, I don't see the Japanese seeking peace until after the fall of Hainan. If they surrender earlier, they could keep it. Or, as the island has always been odd, compared to the mainland, they could try and establish a Republic of Taiwan on the island as a compromise. :p Frankly, that could go either way. The only certainty that I can say is that Hainan will fall. (after all, I believe I remember a mention of the Chinese from Hainan leaving for the US, as China didn't want them. I wonder if that will come up)

It'll be interesting if they actually surrender now that they are left to stand alone.

I second this. The best they can still get is to withdraw their interests in China (basically hand back concessions gained in previous Unequal Treaties) if there still are any, Hainan and possibly Formosa included. They will more than likely not accept complete surrender just yet.

Wow! what a great bunch of comments. I think that it's interesting that their is such a wide range of speculation. Having read all the posts I gather their are a few recurring questions we are grappling with.

1) How much pressure will the Japanese government need to be under before it is willing to capitulate?
2) What is the threshold for Japan to give up Formosa and Korea?
3) To what extent is the British Commonwealth and the League of American Republics willing to sacrifice in order to crush Japan?
4) Will the fear of a powerful Chinese Technate mean more lenient terms for Japan?

Honestly, I not sure exactly how this war will end, but I will differently consider the points y'all have made when writing future updates. Cheers!
 
This may be a bit off topic, but what is the status of France and Italy, and the extent of colonization in their African colonies? In the original, I think you mentioned that a majority of the residents were from the respective countries at the turn of the century.

Also, what are the language policies of the two states? Are the regional languages stronger than OTL (esp in France with Alsatian, Occitan, Breton, Basque etc) with a larger more accessible core land? I'm not sure which dialects/cultures are primarily the ones leaving for Algeria/Tunis/Tripolitania. Or, are the language policies of OTL in place?

Good questions Luminous, I will do my best to answer them.

Since the Great War, France and Italy have been doing very well. Both are capitalist democratic republics and serve as an important counterweight to Germany in Europe. Economic and military cooperation has increased since the signing of the Turin Pact in 1962. Each nation has a sizable North African territory that has been politically integrated into the mother country. As of 1979, non-Muslims make up 28% of Algeria and 31% of Libya (often referred to simply as Italian North Africa) due to a steady stream of immigration form Europe and elsewhere. Interestingly, a sizable number of European and Middle Eastern Jews have settled there over the years. As such, Algeria and Libya have a unique blend of cultures giving what were once dusty backwaters a cosmopolitan flare. Concerning languages, French and Italian are the official languages of their respective countries. Regional languages such as Occitan, Breton, and Sicilian continue to be used but the percentage of native speakers have fallen due to government policies that stress conformity. In North Africa, French and Italian are taught in school and used for government business. However, the majority of the population still uses Maghrebi Arabic as its first language and Maghrebi Arabic newspapers, radio, and television abound. In recent years, bilingual French and Italian Arabs have been crucial to the growing commercial connections between Western Europe and the Middle East.
 
1) How much pressure will the Japanese government need to be under before it is willing to capitulate?

I'm actually surprised they are still in it. They might be looking for one more solid victory, of any kind, to let them have something at the peace table.

2) What is the threshold for Japan to give up Formosa and Korea?

Occupation of them or landings on the home islands. They are not going to give them up without a fight.

3) To what extent is the British Commonwealth and the League of American Republics willing to sacrifice in order to crush Japan?

I doubt very much. Punish and confine probably a good amount (especially Commonwealth as they were actually fighting the Japanese; American not so much) crush I doubt very much beyond what has already been done. They are isolated and alone.

4) Will the fear of a powerful Chinese Technate mean more lenient terms for Japan?

Quite a bit. Though it would depend on who you would ask and how they (both Japan and China) are perceived.

For example Russia (IEF or whatever it is called) most certainly does not so even though they are neutral they will weigh in on supporting Japan diplomatically at the peace conference (they most certainly do not want China getting ideas about Manchuria, etc.).

The Commonwealth would be wary to cripple them too much but anger at them may lead them to punishing more than a more level headed response. (Though it depends on the Commonwealth it doesn't all speak with one voice does it, internally at least, right?)

The US probably prefers a nice balance of power in the western Pacific. While it does make it a tad more dangerous there is a certain stability that can be attained in detente/cold war style posturing which is good for trade and commerce.

The only ones who probably want to see China grow even more powerful is China itself.

Just my two cents though.
 

Thanks. I had wondered what was going on with the Turin Pact. There was a bit of hope that the regional languages might be stronger, but France has always been effective at promoting their language. I imagine Italy is taking a few steps from their playbook.

Hrm. If I recall correctly, Sicily was once a haven for the Jews. It's good to hear that they're finding a new home in Italy (and France).
 
For example Russia (IEF or whatever it is called) most certainly does not so even though they are neutral they will weigh in on supporting Japan diplomatically at the peace conference (they most certainly do not want China getting ideas about Manchuria, etc.).

Speaking of which, what are the Technate's thoughts re: Manchuria at this time?
 
The Technate still claims Manchuria, however they haven't really pressed it since the start of the war. That is going to change however.

How do they match up to the IEF in terms of military strength, economies, and alliances? Obviously China's hegemony in SE Asia will change any balance of power, but will it be enough to tip it? How much has the IEF built up their Siberian/Eastern territories compared to the USSR's in OTL?
 
How do they match up to the IEF in terms of military strength, economies, and alliances? Obviously China's hegemony in SE Asia will change any balance of power, but will it be enough to tip it? How much has the IEF built up their Siberian/Eastern territories compared to the USSR's in OTL?

Well as of 1975, the IEF ranked 3rd in GDP to China's 8th. The Technate's military has grown by leaps and bounds since the start of the war and has now surpassed the IEF in number of ground troops and aircraft, although the IEF still has a sizable lead in cataphracts. The IEF has nuclear weapons but the Technate currently has a nuclear project underway. In terms of alliances the IEF currently has Serbia, Greece, Romania, Bulgaria, and of course mighty Tuva. IEF foreign policy considers Mongolia, Uighuristan, Kurdistan, Tibet, and Kashmir and Jammu as falling in their sphere of influence. China has no official allies but hopes to set up friendly governments in Southeast Asia and Korea after the war. The IEF has concentrated most of their efforts in retaining Manchuria. As such Siberia is slightly less developed than OTL.
 
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Well as of 1975, the IEF ranked 3rd in GDP to China's 8th. The Technate's military has grown by leaps and bounds since the start of the war and has now surpassed the IEF in number of ground troops and aircraft, although the IEF still has a sizable lead in cataphracts. The IEF has nuclear weapons but the Technate currently has a nuclear project underway. In terms of alliances the IEF currently has Serbia, Greece, Romania, Bulgaria, and of course mighty Tuva. IEF foreign policy considers Mongolia, Uighuristan, Kurdistan, and Kashmir and Jammu as falling in their sphere of influence. China has no official allies but hopes to set up friendly governments in Southeast Asia and Korea after the war. The IEF has concentrated most of their efforts in retaining Manchuria. As such Siberia is slightly less developed than OTL.

One should not speak so flippantly about the mighty Tuvan state and their indomitable military. :mad:
 
The IEF has nuclear weapons but the Technate currently has a nuclear project underway.
Very important to note.
In terms of alliances the IEF currently has Serbia, Greece, Romania, Bulgaria, and of course mighty Tuva.
This guy knows how it is. But yeah, I forgot about the Orthodox Union. What do the rest of them think about this war and China's rise?
IEF foreign policy considers Mongolia, Uighuristan, Kurdistan, and Kashmir and Jammu as falling in their sphere of influence. China has no official allies but hopes to set up friendly governments in Southeast Asia and Korea after the war. The IEF has concentrated most of their efforts in retaining Manchuria. As such Siberia is slightly less developed than OTL.

Has any Russification occurred ITTL in Central Asia?
 
Sorry to double post, but I thought that Tibet had stuck themselves inside the IEF's sphere, as Britain couldn't help her maintain her sovereignty any longer.
 
I know this is a bit off topic but has anything happened to Saint Pierre and Miquelon since it was annexed into Maine?

I don't think that the islands have been mentioned since the new map was done 2 years ago. If it is anything like OTL, there is a dispute over its territorial waters for fishing rights, but it may not have reared its head.

However, territorial claims are probably different, and are oriented towards the south/southwest. Granted, I'm not sure how national/international waters are calculated ITTL, so the lines are probably not going to be the same.

Miquelon-ecs.jpg
 
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