The Thunderers: A Carthage Timeline

[Geordie]

You just can't keep away from this, can you Monopolist?

No complaints here, I'm subscribed once again.

I'm looking forward to seeing where you're taking this iteration, and think that the decision to look for terms rather than torch Rome is the right choice as far as plausibility is concerned. You haven't mentioned Iberia - how was Mago fairing against Scipio? I'm assuming that the man who will never be Africanus in TTL has now been recalled to Rome?

 

[Monopolist]

You just can't keep away from this, can you Monopolist?

I can't.

To be fair to myself, two of my attempts have only lasted a week or so, so I'm not sure that they really should count. This is more like the third legitimate attempt.

No complaints here, I'm subscribed once again.

Thanks.

I'm looking forward to seeing where you're taking this iteration, and think that the decision to look for terms rather than torch Rome is the right choice as far as plausibility is concerned. You haven't mentioned Iberia - how was Mago fairing against Scipio? I'm assuming that the man who will never be Africanus in TTL has now been recalled to Rome?

Well, the war in Iberia in 207 BC went about the same as OTL - meaning that not much happened, especially compared to the campaigns of 208 and 206. At this point, Scipio has been recalled to Rome. He'll be important for future Rome updates. Mago and Hasdrubal Gisgo are working on restoring the Iberians that went over to Rome to their control. I plan on focusing on Punic wars in Iberia (and Scipio in Rome) after I finish the major Diadochi war in the east.


Update today as promised, finishing the Sicilian Rebellion and setting the stage for more...:

THE SICILIAN REBELLION

Defeat of the Hellenic Rebels and Politics in Carthage

After defeating the determined resistance at Rhegion, Hannibal crossed the Strait of Messene and laid siege to the rebellious city of Messene (which of course the strait was named after). The Messenians had put their strategic bets on Rhegion fending off the Carthaginians, and did everything they could to keep their longtime ally afloat. Many Messenians would smuggle food, water, weapons, and other provisions to Rhegion across the narrow strait, which would help the city survive longer. But ultimately, Rhegion would of course fall to Hannibal’s men and the Bruttians, and would see a large percentage of its population killed or dispersed as slaves while the new occupants repopulated it. Messene, having weakened itself to an extent fighting Rhegion’s war, would go the same way. Though it had men to defend its walls, Hannibal’s army would capture the city after a couple months at siege. Because of a desire to keep one of the cities that dominated the Strait of Messene wealthy, Hannibal was less brutal in handling Messene’s defeated citizens after its capture, although he did arrest most of the city’s elite and confiscated their wealth, and gave control of their industries either to Carthaginians or to men known to be friendly to the Punic cause. He also established a garrison in the city that would rule it for the time being.

Once the Messenians were defeated, Hannibal sent men to Carthage to plead with the Ab-Adyriim to send another army to the west, to open a second front against the rebels. Hannibal feared that his meager forces (now less than twenty thousand) would have difficulty imposing order upon the island in a timely matter, given how widespread the revolt was. His plea would mostly fall on deaf ears. Carthage since the end of the First Roman War had been divided politically between two factions – the democratic faction of the Barcas, and the oligarchic faction of Hanno Ib [1] and most of the rest of the non-military aristocracy of Carthage. The Barcas were accused of demagoguery, while the oligarchs were accused of corruption. Both were accused of treason during the war, with the Barcid faction claiming that the oligarchs did not support the war and did not give Hannibal a reasonable amount of support, and the oligarchic faction claiming that Hannibal betrayed the state by not attempting to sack Rome itself when he had the chance after the Anio. Power in Carthage tended to be held by the oligarchic faction, even after Hannibal’s victory, and it was no different in 610 AY [2], with both of the year’s shophets [3] being of that party. Gisgo comes forward with the accusation that corruption led to their election, but it is impossible to know if this was true or if this was the Barcid belief. The Barcas certainly used it in their propaganda, of which Gisgo can be included. In any case, the oligarchic faction was certainly jealous of Hannibal, as later events would prove [4], and between themselves they decided they would prefer for Hannibal to continue prosecuting the war on his own, continuing to bleed his power in the process. Their excuse was that the Libyans were rumored to be on the brink of revolt, and Carthage needed what army it could muster independent of Hannibal to be in Africa to put the rebels down. This revolt would never happen. Significant reinforcements would only be sent through Lilybaeum once Hannibal had already nearly won the war.

From Messene Hannibal marched south towards Syracuse. He defeated a smaller Hellenic army near Naxos, and gained the surrender of that city. He then continued to march south, gaining the surrenders of Katane and Leontinoi along the way; the revolutionary spirit of the Hellenes and their allies quickly faded once Hannibal, by now widely thought of as the Carthaginian Alexander, marched his army in their direction. By the time Hannibal reached Syracuse, a peace party had come into power. Not wanting to risk a second sacking in less than a decade, Syracuse came to terms with Hannibal, agreeing to Carthaginian rule in Sicily. This would prove to be the wiser decision for Syracuse, since under Punic patronage the city would recover significantly, growing just as wealthy as it ever had been under Roman rule or while it had been independent of either power.

Hannibal would prove to be a generous conqueror to the Hellenes, promising to the defeated cities and even to Hellenic cities still in rebellion that he would ensure that the men who were considered citizens already in their cities would continue to be considered citizens by the Carthaginians. This was probably inspired by the Romans, who were much more liberal in granting rights to newly conquered peoples than the Carthaginians historically had been. Both cities kept the highest level of citizenship to men that actually lived at the capital, but Rome had long before begun to give more rights to their allies, and Hannibal, following Rome’s lead, was now granting more rights to non-Carthaginian and non-Phoenicians within the empire, a first in Punic history. Another likely reason that Hannibal did this was because he was a noted Hellenophile. The Barcas were supportive of Hellenic influences, and Hannibal had been tutored growing up by a Hellenic teacher. Indeed, the Barcid regime would import Hellenic culture and often viewed their kingship [5] the same way Diadochi rulers in the east might. Whatever the reason, expanding citizenship to the Hellenes would prove to be a very wise decision on Hannibal’s part. Once he announced that he would grant citizenship to the Hellenes, the Hellenes found little reason to fight the Carthaginians, and came to terms with Hannibal. The Romans on the island, however, found no such favor from Hannibal, and they would continue to prepare to war with Hannibal.

The Carthaginian Ab-Adyriim was infuriated over Hannibal’s expansions of citizenship to non-Phoenicians. The oligarchs saw this as a direct challenge to their power, and refused to support Hannibal’s claims at home, while the Barcid faction did everything in their power to help support Hannibal. The oligarchs increasingly feared Hannibal’s power, believing that Hannibal was adding Sicily and southern Italy to a private empire that already included Iberia, and felt that their position was threatened. Meanwhile Hannibal’s victories continued to win him popularity amongst the Carthaginian citizenry.

The Romans were a more aggressive people than the Hellenes, and, being colonists independent of their government, they were more lacking in strategic foresight. Though Sicily was a land conducive to siege warfare, the Romans resolved themselves to form an army and attack Hannibal in the field. There were about ten thousand of them, many being veterans. In addition to the Romans there were an additional two thousand Hellenes that supported their cause, and they were commanded by a Roman named Julius [6], who had been one of the leading Romans in their government in Sicily. They should not be blamed entirely for becoming rash, however, since they had spent a great deal of time trying to win over the Roman Ab-Adyriim to intervene on their behalf. Rome, however, was not foolish enough to go to war with Hannibal again only a couple years after agreeing to peace with him, and the Romans to their credit urged their settlers to simply return home. They liked Sicily too much, however, and remained at war. Their base was the city of Panormus [7], which had long been a Punic colony.

After sweeping through the south, gaining the surrenders of the Hellenic colonies there, Hannibal marched his army north to confront the rebels. They met near the Hellenic colony of Himera at 610 AY [8]. This was a historic site in the ancient wars for Sicily, as the Battle of Himera, which was fought in 334 AY [9], had been where the Hellenes under the rule of Gelon, the King of Syracuse, had defeated a Carthaginian army led by Hamilcar that had been assembled to conquer all of Sicily. Though that Battle of Himera had ended a bid that might have seen Carthage rule all of Sicily, this Battle of Himera would ensure the Carthaginian conquest of Sicily. The Romans were routed quickly after Hannibal deployed the few elephants that he had taken with him, and many of them were captured and sold into slavery.
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Romantic representation of the Battle of Himera in 334 AY​

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It was during this campaign that Carthage had finally sent an army of around fifteen thousand men to assist Hannibal, sending them through the port of Lilybaeum which was one of the few to be loyal to the Punic cause. This army was under the command of Bomilcar, the Punic commander that had failed to gain ground in Sicily and prevent the fall of Syracuse. He recaptured Motya and Eryx and helped facilitate the beginnings of Punic re-colonization of the west.

Shortly after the war was over, Hannibal received a herald from the shophets, demanding that he relinquish control of his army to Bomilcar and answer summons to come to Carthage. There, the messenger said, Hannibal would be questioned as to the purpose of his actions in the Roman War and in the Sicilian Rebellion. Hannibal pondered this for some time. He knew that the party that opposed him was simply seeking a reason to remove him from power and either arrest him or even crucify him for his crimes. However, he did not want to declare himself a traitor. In a famous scene, Hannibal would call up all his men and tell them his predicament, and asked if they thought he should go. When they emphatically begged him to stay, Hannibal gave the messenger his simple answer, “no”. It was at that moment that the oligarchs’ worst fears were realized, and Hannibal became an enemy to the state.


[1] – “Ib” means enemy in Punic according to that dictionary again, and refers to the Hanno the Great that was the primary pro-Roman and anti-Barcid voice in Carthage during this time. The title “Ib” was chosen to reflect the Barcid bias in TTL’s history.
[2] – 204 BC.
[3] – Carthage annually elected two men called shophets as their chief leaders. The word shophet means judge in Punic (and Hebrew I believe – the two languages are very similar). I’ll have more on shophets later in an “essay” post on the Punic government before and after the civil war which I’ll get to eventually.
[4] – You’ll see soon.
[5] – Again, you’ll see soon enough.
[6] – I’m having him be a colonist from one of the Julii branches. Of course he’s inspired by Caesar, although certainly far less talented and important. I needed a patrician, so….
[7] – Palermo.
[8] – 204 BC.
[9] – 480 BC.

 

[Deleted member 67076]

Hmm, can we get a map of the Italian peninsula?

 

[Monopolist]

Hmm, can we get a map of the Italian peninsula?

Check the end of page 2

 

[Cuāuhtemōc]

So this is Hannibal's Rubicon moment! It's begun. The die is cast!

 

[Bartholome de Fonte]

When I was a wee lad in primary school I found Hannibal to be awesome and mourned his failure against the pefidious Latins. This is proving to take shape as exactly what I would want out of a Hannibal wins TL (so please don't drop this anytime soon eh?)

 

[Razgriz 2K9]

Agreed, though I never would've considered Hannibal having Dictatorial ambitions, especially so soon after Carthage became a Republic itself.

 

[Monopolist]

So this is Hannibal's Rubicon moment! It's begun. The die is cast!

Indeed.

When I was a wee lad in primary school I found Hannibal to be awesome and mourned his failure against the pefidious Latins. This is proving to take shape as exactly what I would want out of a Hannibal wins TL (so please don't drop this anytime soon eh?)

I know how you feel; Hannibal's a favorite of mine (duh ). Hopefully you continue to like it.

Agreed, though I never would've considered Hannibal having Dictatorial ambitions, especially so soon after Carthage became a Republic itself.

Richard Miles in his "Carthage Mvst be Destroyed" talks for a little bit during his discussion on how the Barcas viewed their rule in Spain how, according to Appian, Hasdrubal the Fair attempted to overthrow the Carthaginian constitution and make himself king. However, the folks in charge were able to rebuff his attempt and send him back to Iberia. Miles concludes that while Polybius "hotly denied the veracity of this story", that Hasdrubal's history suggests that it could very well be true.

This is always the first big problem that I face with these timelines: how does the relationship between the Barcas and the elites back in Carthage develop in this timeline? My thought is always that it would get much more hostile, not necessarily from Hannibal's end - who, while not apolitical, seems to have been more of a "pure soldier" than his father and his brother-in-law - but from men jealous of Hannibal's success and fearful of just how powerful the Barcas are. They're already arguably kings in Iberia, and now Hannibal has a number of Italian tribes and other factions loyal more to him and his family than Carthage itself. I usually see this playing out into civil war.

As for Carthage recently becoming a republic, it's hard to say when the republic really began. The kings in Carthage's earlier history (the Magonids) seem to have been more of a generalissimo type figure than a true king, and though the Magonid family was powerful it was less a belief in primogeniture that kept them in power than the nobles believing in "family traits" and continuing to elect them into command of the armies. It's not really certain how much of a say they had in Punic policy other than the military and maybe foreign policy. Over time - usually marked with the defeat at the Battle of Himera - the Magonids lost their power, and so did this position of "king" (although Justin refers to it as "dux" instead of "rex"). While the position seems to have been maintained throughout the fourth century BC, as we have different politicians vying for it and sometimes warring for it, power seems to have been handed down to the aristocracy through the Council of Elders (which always existed in Punic history) and the Council of 104. The shophets probably grew more powerful during this time. By the end of the fourth century BC, the king Bomilcar was chased out and the quasi-monarchy/generalissimo figure was abolished, with the shophets taking up the prime position within Carthage's government. Generals were now approved by the oligarchs and by the Popular Assembly, which was a newer democratic body in Carthage that slowly gained power throughout the third century BC, probably (this is my conjecture here) because of the support of the Barcas to counter the higher, more aristocratic assembly that opposed their interests. So the republic has probably been mostly running the show for the past two hundred years, and completely so for the past one hundred. It's really hard to talk about the Carthaginian government though because of how little information there is on it, and how all of what we do have is in the hands of people who really don't know much about it (the Greeks and Romans).

Also, one more thing: I've never said that Hannibal will be the Barca that creates/reinstates the monarchy, only that the Barcas will do so... you folks can decide if I'm trying to misdirect you or not.

 

[Monopolist]

Sorry I've been slower with the next update for this - I started rethinking some of my outline for the civil war, and then I had a test and March Madness started up. I'm aiming to finish the civil war this week and then move on to the east by next week at least, where we'll have Philip V and Antiochus III flying overhead like vultures over a dying Ptolemaic kingdom ruled by the boy king Ptolemy V and his scheming regents, which is in the midst of a civil war of its own, as the native Egyptians try to oust the Greeks and Macedonians.

Anyways, this update is sure to be unpopular, but I have my reasons for doing it. Indeed, this is the main thing I was reconsidering for my Civil War outline - in the end, however, I did chose to do it. Anyways, here it is:


THE CIVIL WAR

Hannibal’s Assassination [1] and Hasdrubal’s Reaction

It is impossible to gain an unbiased perspective on the civil war that saw Hasdrubal Barca become Carthage’s malik [2]. All of our sources on the war – Gisgo being chief among them – are in favor of the Barcas, and universally demonize the faction of Hanno Ib, down to giving him his infamous surname. Because of this I will relate the events as the ancients told it, while also informing the reader what modern scholars have doubts on, and why those doubts exist.

As I have already told, the oligarchic faction in Carthage had become paranoid about the success of Hannibal Barca, and resolved themselves to remove him from power. They allowed him to bleed his army white fighting the war to pacify Sicily, before demanding that he relinquish his command to Bomilcar and await trial in Carthage to justify his actions in the wars against Rome and the Sicilians. This, it was believed by the Barcas, would be a rigged trial meant to at best destroy Hannibal’s career and his family’s fortune, and at worst to crucify him as a traitor. Hannibal then asked his troops (he had probably already decided anyways, knowing his men would support him) whether he should answer the summons, to which they emphatically answered no, encouraging him to rebel against the state.

It isn’t known what Hannibal wanted to accomplish with his rebellion. Many modern day observers speculate that Hannibal wanted to make himself malik, as Hasdrubal would eventually do. Others believe that Hannibal sought to create a “Barcid Empire”, consisting of the Barcid conquests in Iberia, Italy, and Sicily, completely independent of Carthage. The ancients, revering Hannibal’s image as a simple and apolitical man, believed that he only wanted to defeat the men who opposed him out of power and ensure that his own faction stay in power, maintaining the old system of government. Personally, I’m not sure that Hannibal himself knew what he wanted. He rightly felt threatened by the escalation of hostilities by the oligarchs, and planned to use his army to defend himself. Only once he had defeated his enemies would he consider where to go from there.

It would not take long before the oligarchs reacted to Hannibal’s decision. Knowing that preventing war with the Barcas was a lost cause, the oligarchic camp would plot to murder Hannibal, knowing that even if they did so blatantly it would still take Hannibal out of the picture, and they would only have to deal with Hasdrubal and Mago, who were lesser generals than their elder brother. Hannibal’s military acumen was rightly feared by the oligarchs, for their best general, Bomilcar, was vastly inferior to the vanquisher of Rome. Gisgo tells us that there were a number of attempts to assassinate Hannibal until the final, famous one. The first was that they bribed Hannibal’s servants to poison his bread; when Hannibal went to eat this bread, a raven flew in and swiped the bread from his plate [3], thus foiling his enemies’ plans. Another time, they poisoned his drink, but they waited too long and Hannibal, drunk, knocked the glass over, spilling the poison on the ground. In these stories Gisgo means to show Hannibal and, to a lesser extent, the Barcas’ divine favor, but ultimately the gods would not prevent Hannibal from being assassinated.

The scene of Hannibal’s assassination is this: Hannibal was at a temple of Melqart in Panormus, offering sacrifice to the god. Melqart [4] had been taken up by Hamilcar as the patron of their family, and above the other Punic gods Melqart is the one that Hamilcar’s sons prayed to most for fortune on the battlefield and in life. There were a couple of guards stationed at the entrance of the temple; besides this the temple was unoccupied, as Hannibal preferred to be alone with the gods rather than with a priest. Hannibal did not know it, but these guards were bought by the men who wanted him dead. They were unbelievers towards the Punic gods and any other gods, and they did not fear profaning the god’s temple in murdering their victim there. In fact, they specifically chose the temple knowing that Hannibal would feel safest from enemy blades there. At a certain point, these two men left their post and walked behind Hannibal, raising their spears. Gisgo tells us that Hannibal turned around, and, seeing his doom, said “You, my brothers?” [5] before the assassins stuck their spears into both sides of the great general. Hannibal, the greatest Punic conqueror in Carthage’s long history, died in 610 AY [6] at the age of 43 [7]. His assassins were quickly caught by Hannibal’s veterans and crucified for their crime.
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An artist’s interpretation of the crucifixion of Hannibal’s assassins; he adds Abdeshmun to the two known assassins.​

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This, in any case, is how the story usually goes. Hasdrubal and his successors did a great deal to promote this story to justify their war against and deposition of the old regime. However, the Hellenic historian Aristides breaks the consensus by providing a second story which he had heard from a merchant from Panormus and was apparently the local tradition. This version was that an officer by the name of Abdeshmun was spurned for promotion by Hannibal in favor of someone he considered to be less talented and less senior, and decided to have his revenge by having Hannibal murdered and then appealing to the new commander for this promotion that he sought. He bribed Hannibal’s guardsmen, giving them a great deal of gold and promising to help them escape. Instead, however, the guards were caught and executed, but not before they ratted out Abdeshmun, who was much less publicly executed. Hannibal’s lieutenants already preferred the version that villainized the oligarchs for their purposes, and so hushed the story of Abdeshmun – at least, according to Aristides and his merchant. Modern historians have been quick to jump to the conclusion that this story is the true one, judging the traditional story as “the fanciful machinations of Hasdrubal’s propaganda machine to destroy the reputation of their enemies”. After all, it is hard to see the oligarchs risking the wrath of all the Barcid family, which they would receive after Hannibal was killed. However, this story doesn’t explain why the oligarchs – if they feared upsetting the Barcas – would have summoned Hannibal to trial in the first place. From that point, it’s logical to see how assassination would have been seen as a last resort by some within the Punic aristocracy. So personally, I prefer the standard story for Hannibal’s murder, and view the merchant’s tale as simply that – a merchant’s tale.

Hanno the Elder, Hannibal’s longtime friend and chief lieutenant in his army during all those years in Italy, assumed command of Hannibal’s army and maintained loyalty to the Barcid cause. He did this for a variety of reasons, chief among them being that he and the men loved Hannibal and aspired more than anything to punish the men responsible for his death. Hanno was a good soldier, and loved by the men, although he had never had much success in the independent commands Hannibal gave him against the Romans. He would immediately be challenged by Bomilcar, the general of the loyalist army, who advanced with his fifteen thousand men straight for the Barcid camp at Panormus. The Barcid army would prepare for battle. The Battle of Panormus would take place at the fields a few miles west of the eponymous city, with the two armies being of nearly equal size, the Barcid force being slightly larger. The skill and experience of Hannibal’s veterans gave his successor a great advantage in the battle, and the Barcid army defeated the forces of the Ab-Adyriim. Many of the mercenaries that had supported the government now switched sides, while the remainder of the oligarchs’ army retreated south under heavy pursuit from Hannibal’s lieutenant. Some were caught by Hannibal’s former army, but most managed to escape, being evacuated from Sicily at Lilybaeum. Lilybaeum was then promptly captured and garrisoned by Barcid forces.

Hasdrubal, meanwhile, learned of his brother’s murder a week after the fact while his army was in Campania, threatening the Neapolitans into joining Capua. He had known that his brother was preparing for war with the oligarchs, and was trying to hurry action in Campania so that he would be able to assist his brother. It is said that he raged non-stop for an entire day, cursing their enemies and swearing eternal revenge. Hasdrubal could be a patient man, and was often calm and collected, but in instances like this he was much more prone to rash action, whereas his brother was a reserved, cerebral man, always thinking even in the tensest situations. Once calmed down he sent a man to deliver the bad news to Mago, and urged his younger brother to withdraw his army from Iberia, sail to Africa, and march on Carthage from the west. Hasdrubal then prepared for his own attack on Carthage, hoping to merge his army with Mago’s, like he had with Hannibal against the Romans. He sent a man to Hanno the Elder, whom he did not yet know had defeated Bomilcar, urging him to wait to march against the oligarchs’ army before he had arrived in Sicily. By the time this reached Hanno he was already in pursuit of the defeated enemy, and decided against relenting the pursuit in favor of strictly following Hasdrubal’s commands, and instead urged the new head of the Barca family to meet him at Lilybaeum. This, Hasdrubal would do, as he took fifteen thousand men from Italy to Sicily with him, forcing the Campanians to lend him their fleet. He left ten thousand men in Italy under the command of Mago Saunites [8] to keep a Barcid presence there – Rome was not yet trusted to maintain the peace without Carthaginian forces protecting the area. Once joined with Hannibal’s veterans, Hasdrubal had thirty thousand men at his command; with Mago’s army added to that number, the Barcas had over fifty thousand men to attack Carthage with.

Hanno Ib and his men knew this, and feared the Barcas’ power. Their plan had been for Bomilcar to quickly gain the surrender of Hannibal’s army after Hannibal was taken out of the picture, but they underestimated his soldiers’ respect for their captain, and how they would stubbornly support his cause even after he was killed. As a result, they had to resort to Plan B. More mercenaries were hired, and the Numidian princes that the oligarchs’ had alliances with were called upon for their support. In addition, more levies were required of the Libyans. They also relied on their many war elephants – which Hasdrubal would not have access to – to give them an edge in battle. These measures, added with the remnants of Bomilcar’s defeated force in Sicily, gave the oligarchs’ an army of thirty thousand men. Their real strength, however, was in their navy. Since the war had ended Carthage had rebuilt some of its once proud fleet, and unlike the soldiers, the sailors could thank the Barcas, Hanno Ib and his ilk as their patrons. They knew it would be difficult to prevent Mago from landing his army out from Iberia, given that he was so far from Carthage, but it was hoped that they could prevent Hasdrubal from being able to land in Africa.


[1] – Actually this is probably far more unpopular than keeping Rome around longer. Most likely anyone’s who’s actually liked this up to this point is going to stop reading now, lol.
[2] – Malik means king. Also, spoiler alert!
[3] – This is lifted from the story of St. Benedict of Nursia, whose monks tried to poison him in a number of different ways for forcing them to adhere to his Benedictine lifestyle, but each time God saved Benedict.
[4] – For those that know nothing about him, Melqart can be seen as the Punic equivalent of Heracles/Hercules. Or rather Heracles/Hercules can be seen as the Greco-Roman equivalent of Melqart, since Melqart came first. I’ll have a post later on about Punic religion under the Barcid regime that will go into quite a bit of detail about Melqart and other Punic gods.
[5] – Based off Caesar’s last words.
[6] – 204 BC
[7] – Hannibal was born in 247 BC.
[8] – He’s described as leading a cavalry ambush at Herdonea in 212 BC.

 

[St. Just]

More unpopular certainly- although it gives a pseudo - divine air to him that may have been lost had he lived to seize power. Good update though.

 

[Bartholome de Fonte]

All dogs must rest, some with a spear in their back. I wouldn't worry about any backlash over this, way too many TLs with Carthage beating Rome never drop Hannibal who remains a pseduo-god military administrator. Plus, this civil war just got way more interesting.

 

[Cuāuhtemōc]

I didn't see Hannibal's assassination coming. At least he had lived long enough to have Rome humbled and Carthage's position as the premier power in the western Meditterranean secured. Admittedly it would be a sort of cliche to have Hannibal live to a ripe old age, ruling Carthage as its sovereign, and I am a glutton for that sort of thing. I'm glad you avoided it.

Good job.

 

[Grouchio]

I didn't see Hannibal's assassination coming. At least he had lived long enough to have Rome humbled and Carthage's position as the premier power in the western Meditterranean secured. Admittedly it would be a sort of cliche to have Hannibal live to a ripe old age, ruling Carthage as its sovereign, and I am a glutton for that sort of thing. I'm glad you avoided it.

Good job.

Well, he did do that in Xamin Amin IV, in which Hannibal reigned as soveriegn...

 

[Deleted member 67076]

Here's to hoping the new regime is far more stable.

 

[Russian]

Hannibal’s Assassination?
That's the last thing I expected in this TL.
But being unpredictable is a good thing, makes reading more interesting.

I liked this update, though I personally do not consider Barcid Empire to be a part of the Carthaginian State. That was a family possession. The loyalties of the peoples of Spain were to the Barcids, the loyalties of the Barcid army which consisted of many nationalities were to the Barca family.
You may wonder about how did the ethnic Carthaginians inside the Barcid domain feel towards Carthage. But they were never the majority in population and in the army and mostly they were second or even the third Punic generation living inside Barcid Empire which made them Barca's family clients most naturally.
So I seriously doubt that Carthage ever took such risk as ordering Hannibal go to Carthage for trial (and execution). That would be a direct declaration of war, which Carthage did not need.
The most possible scenario IMO after Punic victory in war is two separate Empires - Carthage and Barcid Empire. With time the Barcid Empire might be divided into several states - Spain is for one brother and Italy/Scisily to the second brother or son, something like that.
Carthage would be a cultural, religious and financial center.

 

[Monopolist]

More unpopular certainly- although it gives a pseudo - divine air to him that may have been lost had he lived to seize power. Good update though.

All dogs must rest, some with a spear in their back. I wouldn't worry about any backlash over this, way too many TLs with Carthage beating Rome never drop Hannibal who remains a pseduo-god military administrator. Plus, this civil war just got way more interesting.

I didn't see Hannibal's assassination coming. At least he had lived long enough to have Rome humbled and Carthage's position as the premier power in the western Meditterranean secured. Admittedly it would be a sort of cliche to have Hannibal live to a ripe old age, ruling Carthage as its sovereign, and I am a glutton for that sort of thing. I'm glad you avoided it.

Good job.

Hannibal’s Assassination?
That's the last thing I expected in this TL.
But being unpredictable is a good thing, makes reading more interesting.

OK, the reasons I did it:

1. I wanted Hannibal's life to focus around defeating Rome, and to give his younger brothers their chance to shine after the war. This is The Thunderers, about all of the Barcid family, not just Hannibal.
2. The historical parallel of Hannibal/Caesar, Hasdrubal/Augustus.
3. Hannibal usually does everything for Carthage as both a general and political leader in these timelines, which seems a little unlifelike. Most guys who are on the verge of doing that end up killed by someone....
4. Because I feel like a Barcid monarchy might be better at fighting Rome than the Carthaginian oligarchy of OTL. We know how that turned out eventually IOTL, so I felt that a kind of permanent Barcid generalissimo would help Carthage's fighting ability against Rome. Hannibal on his own would be less likely to overthrow the Punic constitution and set up such a monarchy than an angry Hasdrubal or Mago.
5. The rest of the civil war is rather wank-ish for the Barcas.
6. Because I knew it was unexpected this time around.

Well, he did do that in Xamin Amin IV, in which Hannibal reigned as soveriegn...

I did, I did. And in the other tries too.

Here's to hoping the new regime is far more stable.

It will be, at least through Hasdrubal and Mago's lives.

I liked this update, though I personally do not consider Barcid Empire to be a part of the Carthaginian State. That was a family possession. The loyalties of the peoples of Spain were to the Barcids, the loyalties of the Barcid army which consisted of many nationalities were to the Barca family.
You may wonder about how did the ethnic Carthaginians inside the Barcid domain feel towards Carthage. But they were never the majority in population and in the army and mostly they were second or even the third Punic generation living inside Barcid Empire which made them Barca's family clients most naturally.
So I seriously doubt that Carthage ever took such risk as ordering Hannibal go to Carthage for trial (and execution). That would be a direct declaration of war, which Carthage did not need.

Just how independent the Barcid holdings in Iberia were from Carthage is an interesting question. They certainly seemed to have had a lot of de facto independence from the mother country. The Iberian tribes were sworn to Hamilcar, then Hasdrubal the Fair, then Hannibal, never Carthage. But still I think Carthage itself viewed the provinces as their own, and there are a number of instances where the Punic senators clashed with the Barcas over who was really in power in Iberia. The Barcas maintained their command of the armies there because they controlled the silver mines, and used that money to win over enough friends to keep them in command. Plus they were popular for their victories.

My view of the civil war is that the oligarchs felt very threatened, seeing that the Barcas now controlled two very wealthy regions almost independent of their will, and so they decided to act rashly instead of rationally, that is by ordering Hannibal's arrest, and then his assassination. They would have thought of Iberia and Sicily and Italy as Carthaginian provinces that the Barcas in their ambition usurped control of rather than undergoing the traditional system of appointments. I admit I did it more because it fits where I want this timeline to go rather than what might be more plausible, but I think it is still plausible.

The most possible scenario IMO after Punic victory in war is two separate Empires - Carthage and Barcid Empire. With time the Barcid Empire might be divided into several states - Spain is for one brother and Italy/Scisily to the second brother or son, something like that.
Carthage would be a cultural, religious and financial center.

I can see that, and thought about doing something like that a bit, but ultimately I preferred this vehicle to just unite Carthage under Barcid rule. I think it's semi-plausible, to have them try and arrest Hannibal. I figured the long history of disputes between the Punic senators and the Barcas might lead to one side - here the Senators - finally getting fed up with the other, damn the costs, and, well, doing what they did.

 

[Captain Planet]

I knew it! I kinda figured it would be right after Hannibal won the Civil war that something would kill him, but I never thought it was going to be assassination! Well done on the update Monopolist.

 

[SlyDessertFox]

Excellent update. You seem to have went heavy on the Julius Caesar parallel s (getting summoned to Carthage, starting civil war, and then getting assassinated), which is a nice twist. I have to say, like others, I didn't see it coming.

 

[ChaosTheVoid]

This a great TL. Shame about Hannibal. I don't know much about punic funerals, but what happened to Hannibal's body? Will it be brought back to Carthage eventually? Hasdrubal needs to erect a monument to Hannibal after he becomes malik.

 

[Monopolist]

Update hopefully sometime this weekend.

I knew it! I kinda figured it would be right after Hannibal won the Civil war that something would kill him, but I never thought it was going to be assassination! Well done on the update Monopolist.

Thank you sir.

Excellent update. You seem to have went heavy on the Julius Caesar parallel s (getting summoned to Carthage, starting civil war, and then getting assassinated), which is a nice twist. I have to say, like others, I didn't see it coming.

I did, I did; I like the Hannibal/Caesar Hasdrubal/Augustus parallel, I think it works fairly well. Although I won't constantly stick to it....

This a great TL. Shame about Hannibal. I don't know much about punic funerals, but what happened to Hannibal's body? Will it be brought back to Carthage eventually? Hasdrubal needs to erect a monument to Hannibal after he becomes malik.

You know, I didn't think much of it, but now that you mention it, I think a funeral scene would be a good idea. Good chance to talk about Punic funeral customs and whatnot. I'll write something up; not sure if it'll be before or after I cover the Diadochi war in the east though.