The Song of Roland

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Since the WRE will lose land here, and since Sancho of Navarra is the claimant to the Kingdom of Gothica, the borders may at least end up in the Pyrenees, if not including Septimania.

Probably the Pyrenees, maybe even the Ebro river in the north-east. As for the north-west;)

For much I like the WRE, it is always good to see independent nations here.:D

Makes it less of a WRE wank you mean.:p

How will Sancho and Muhammad Ibn Abi Aamir interact with the Kingdom of Compostella?

In a word, complicated. Don't forget the Kingdom of Leon.
 
The Emirate.

First target of the Fox. The upper echelons of the Emirate are from mostly Berber stock, or Andalusians such as the Hakkamite dynasty, who follow the Idrisid teachings, and are thus disliked by the peasants and old families such as the Fox's. It also doesn't help that the Hakkamite's are seen as puppets for Christians.

So what the Fox is hoping to do is ride the wave of support and throw out the Hakkamites and their Berber allies. So if the Fox can take power then Cordoba may make a come back, but that depends on what happens with Sancho the Exile.
 
Verse XLVI: Italiad

Verse XLVI: Italiad

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King Constantine in folly gave
The Cross, the Crown, the Sacred Stave
That pierced our Lord, all to the Holy See.
The angel mourned his folly so:
“A woe, ah woe, ah threefold woe!
For Christendom is now in jeopardy.
I see a subtle poison fall,
Their honey will be turned to gall;
On Man a heavy burden will be laid.”
The princes lose all proper awe;
The highest prince is of all power deprived
By this election which the priests contrived.
Let accusation before God be made;
The clerics are perverting civil law.
It was no falsehood that the angel said!
- King Constantine’s’ folly, anonymous author, 11th Century

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“On the subject of siege: Tunnels should be dug underground, battering rams, tortoises, aforementioned petrobolos, wooden towers, and scaling ladders be made, hill-like embankments piled, and other siege mechanisms and necessary devices prepared, of which the ancients quite resourcefully told in their works, describing in quantity, superbly and with great use, similar inventions. For that reason we, avoiding words and descriptions, consider it inexpedient to speak of them in detail.”
- Emperor Rudolph I, Amongst the Greeks, 950

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“Realm of the Iron Crown: A history of the Kingdom of Italy.”
By Ronaldo de Rossi, 1284

Chapter VIII: The Greek War

As the forces of the two Emperors fought each other across Latium, Umbria and Ravenna, the war in southern Italy was more silent and one sided. The Lombard and Greek people of southern Italy had never been the most eager supporters of the Western Roman Empire. They differed in language, culture and above all religion, as the Greek Rite was dominant rather then Latin Rite. As such they were eager to welcome the invading Greeks, and after the battle of Canosa many flocked to the banner of the Greek Emperor. Apulia and Salerno were under firm Greek control quickly, but further north King Andrew of Italy was trapped in the fortress of Beneventum. The Eastern Emperor Nikolaos was at the walls of Rome, and feared that his rear guard would fall under attack by King Andrew. He ordered the Domestikos Alexander Synadenos, Greek commander in Apulia to diploma with King Andrew. He presented King Andrew with a deal. He would grant Andrew the title of Exarch of Italy (which would later be changed to Exarch of Benevento to reflect the lay of the land) if he would swear allegiance to the Eastern Emperor. After careful consideration, Andrew agreed, and Southern Italy, which had barely been controlled by the Western Roman Empire at the best of times, fell back in line with Constantinople, as it had for so many years. With his rear guard protected, the Emperor Nikolaos was free to strike with all his force at Rome…

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Taken from:
“East vs. West: The Second Sicilian Crisis.”
By Stephen da Pavia, 1404

The Siege of Rome in 971 was as to be expected. The Greeks, with their learning and engineering attacked the walls of Rome. The Greek force had marched north to the city, seizing The Basilica of The Three Lords. As the basilica was outside the walls of Rome it was a target for the Saracen and Magyar raids of the 9th and 10th Centuries it had been fortified by the various popes of the late 9th Century. The Emperor Nikolaos made the Basilica his headquarters as he lay siege to Rome, forcing out the monks. Nikolaos placed the main force of his at the Gates of Saint Paul, the Appian Gate and the Latin Gate, whilst his auxiliary force of Lombard turncoats were placed along the flank, surrounding the remaining Walls of Rome. The walls that protected Rome were of two kinds. The first was the Aurelian Wall, built in the third century, and the second where the Walls of Pope Felix V, built in the late 9th Century, which protected the Vatican Hill and Basilica of St Peter on the Western bank of the Tiber.

The Eastern Emperor’s position outside the walls of Rome were perilous. Within the city were Two Imperial Legions under the command of Advocatus John of Echternach. To the north were two armies.
The first was the force of King Thomas (of the Romans), contained within the fortress of Rovigo. The Greek army that was besieging Bologna, once under the command of the Emperor Nikolaos but now controlled by Domestikos John Mouzalon kept Thomas trapped in Rovigo. Both King Andrew and King Thomas were trapped by the nature of war in the 10th Century, and rather then risk loosing all in open battle they stayed in their fortresses, condemned to harass the supply lines of the Greeks.

The second German army in Italy was that of the Emperor Harald. It was made up of two legions, those stationed in Saxony and the Wendish. This force was accompanied by three auxiliary legions of knights. Two of these were Frankish, and these knights had not served in the Imperial campaigns of their fathers and were of a varying quality in both skill and equipment. Worse of all were the two hundred knights of Westfalia whom had had no practice in warfare besides the hunts and tournaments.

The third legion was five thousand horsemen from the Trans-Oderian Slavic lands. The elderly Voivode Michael of Polania was eager to support the Emperor and mustered his vassals to answer the call of the Emperor. The only distinguishing feature of the Polanes from their German overlords was the language they spoke; for Rhineland chain mail and swords had been brought east of the Oder river by German merchants.

The Polanes were led by Prince Stephen the Scarred, son of Michael. They met the Emperor at Stuttgart, their passage quickened by the Northern Imperial Circuit, the vast new Imperial Roads of the north of the Empire. These roads stretched from Posen to Havelburg to Verden to Karlsburg and allowed for a greater movement of peoples from the east to the west.

The arrival of the Polanian warriors were a source of concern amongst the Legions of the Emperor Harald. Few trusted them, and the Dukes of the two Legions, Duke Francis and Duke Guibert were unwilling to fight beside the Polanes. The personal priest of the Emperor, Otto the Pious, was most untrusting of the Slavic troops. He proclaimed to the Emperor that the Polanes were no more then pagans in disguise, and that marching to save Rome with pagans would doom the Empire and usher in the Apocalypse. He demanded that the entire army must be held up in Stuttgart so the Polanes could be properly baptised.

The Polanes were offended by this (although it is without a doubt that some of them may have been pagans) and the Emperor was forced to play negotiator between the Polanes and Otto and the Dukes, and eventually a compromise was reached by which Prince Stephen and his personal retainers were baptised by Father Otto. But despite this few Germans trusted the Poles, and as the army marched through Burgundy deep rifts grew in the army of the Emperor.

The Emperor Harald entered Italy in late June, arriving at Pavia on the 15th of July, meeting with the assembled comes, gastalds and grafs of northern Italy. Bologna, which had been under siege for almost a year had fallen to the forces of John Mouzalon, and Thomas, King of the Romans was determined to take back the city, and petitioned the Emperor for command of the Italian levies to take back the city. Harald refused, demanding that Thomas attempt to draw John Mouzalon out of Bologna to face him in open battle, otherwise keep him trapped in Bologna and Ravenna. Finally on the 20th of July the Emperor left Pavia for Rome. At Pisa he first encountered the Patzinak horsemen of the Greeks. The Patzinak were part of the Anabasii armies that had ravaged across central Italy, destroying and looting the towns and farms, taking away the harvests to feed the armies of the Emperor Nikolaos at Rome and in Beneventum.

When faced with the army of the Emperor marching south the Anabasii scouts attempted to flee back to the Greek Emperor, but using his Slavic scouts Harald captured the Greek scouts. These captured Greeks were interrogated by Harald and a horrible truth was unveiled. The Germans were too late. Four days earlier, on 8th August, the siege of Rome had ended, and the city was in the hands of Emperor Nikolaos…

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Taken from,
“On the Apocalypse: The end of the first millennium and the restoration of the Western Roman Empire.”
By Raymond Lacharriere
1347, University of Soissons, Kingdom of Francia.
Response by Lambert de Cordobes, University of Toldeo

The Siege of Rome

The Eastern Emperor Nikolaos had laid siege to the city of Rome for almost a month before he attacked. Trapped within the walls of Rome were two Imperial Legions under the command of the Duke John of Echternach, Advocatus of the Pope, along with several levies of Roman citizens who Duke John trained on the field of Mars. Several tournaments were organised by the Duke to maintain the training of his knights but also to distract the citizenry of Rome from the imminent disaster. At the other end of the scale there were daily trials and executions of men and women accused of being traitors.

Meanwhile Greeks were quick to get to work outside the walls, building the circumvallation and contravallation lines where the land and time allowed, whilst the three camps were built three thousand steps from the walls of Rome. The Palatine James wrote that from the walls of Rome the Greeks in the camp:

“Appeared as though they were ants, and that civilian and soldier were indistinguishable. We will never know how many Greeks soldiers there are until they climb the walls.”

Day by day the food supply in Rome dropped and the personal Palatine of Duke John, James of Mainland, carefully organised the rationing of the food, but the families of Rome were hopelessly corrupt, and the citizens starved whiles the nobles and army ate well. Everyone knew that the Greeks would invade, but the question was of when. Finally, early in the morning of the second of August, the feast day of Saint Stephen the martyr the Emperor Nikolaos sent an embassy to the walls of Rome, where he shouted to the Germans to surrender. The Duke John responded by shooting arrows at the embassy, and shortly afterwards the Greek assault on Rome began.

A barrage of Greek fire and stones thrown by the many siege engines of the Greeks began before dawn. For a day and a night Rome was under constant barrage by the Eastern Emperor. Once this had ended the walls of Rome were assaulted by the Greeks. Great towers and rams approached the walls and gates, and thousands of Greek soldiers seized poured across the walls and through the Gates of Saint Paul, the Appian Gate and the Latin Gate.

The German forces in Rome were broken by the siege and the bombardment, and so much of the city was in the hands of the Greeks. The Roman nobles, notable for being as dastardly and plotting as the Greeks of the east, changed their allegiance from West to East, welcoming the Greeks into the city. Duke John fought on, his legions loyal and unbending, the quintessence of the German warrior ethos. The retreated into the centre of the city, and at the Capitoline Hill, at the church of Saint Mary they fought to the last man against the Greeks in vain.

Eventualy, after the Vatican hill had been seized by Nikolaos Duke John surrendered. Nikolaos recognised him a worthy enemy, and had the Advocatus imprisoned rather then killed. He was sent east, to Constantinople where he would live out the rest of his years imprisoned in a gilded cage.

For the man whom the Duke represented, Pope Sylvester II, Nikolaos was not so charitable. He was imprisoned as Duke John had, but to await trial as a heretic, and a new bishop of Rome was appointed by Nikolaos. His choice was Cardinal Philip Pierleoni [1], from the noble Pierleoni family, one of the many whom had emerged in the early 10th Century in Rome. As the walls were rebuilt and Nikolaos prepared his army to face Emperor Harald the new Bishop of Rome, Philip I began the process of bringing his predecessor Sylvester II to trial. He dismissed the filioque clause, along with removing much of the schism that was created at the Fourth Lateran Council, and submitted to the authority of the Patriarch in Constantinople in all things ecclesiastical. The Germans Church authority north of Rome refused to recognise the authority of Pope Philip, and so the Primates of the Empire [2] met in May 972 at Karlsburg to elect a new Primate of the West….

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“The Military Lexicon” 5th Edition
By various, edited by Abbot Franco of Magdeburg
1332, Imperial Academy, Karlsburg

BATTLE OF BOLOGNA: The battle of Bologna took place on the 17th of August 971 between the forces of KING OF THE ROMANS THOMAS OF ROUEN and DOMESTIKOS JOHN MOUZALON at the city of BOLOGNA. The battle was a stunning victory for John Mouzalon, who managed to rout the much of Thomas’s army. Thomas himself was killed when struck in the chest with a crossbow bolt. The bolt was removed, but the wound was infected, and Thomas would die days later whilst retreating. The victory was a Pyrrhic one for John Mouzalon, as he was forced to withdraw from Bologna and RAVENNA and return to the EASTERN ROMAN EMPIRE to fight the BOGOMIL HERESY.

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Taken from:
“East vs. West: The Second Sicilian Crisis.”
By Stephen da Pavia, 1404

The fall of Rome to the Emperor Nikolaos of the East was a terrible blow to Harald. The entire legitimacy of the Western Emperors rested on them holding Rome. With Rome in the hands of the Greeks Harald had lost this legitimacy. Suddenly those who sought Imperial Purple for themselves had a weapon they could wield against Harald. There were four main contenders. The first was the King of the Romans Thomas, who was sparring with Domestikos John Mouzalon at Bologna, and did not live long enough to find out about Rome, having been killed at the battle of Bologna on the 17th of August. The second was the Consul of the Germans, Henry de Reims. However Henry de Reims did not seek the Imperial throne, rather he sought to use his power as Consul of the Germans to reform the WRE, to destroy the power of the various Kings. He controlled Karlsburg and the gears and wheels of the Imperial Government, including the Master of the Palace, Master of the Scabini, along with control over the Missaticum. The Imperial Diet was also under his control, along with the Imperial household. However much of his efforts were directed at curbing the power of the King of the Franks, who was the third man to seek the Imperial throne.

Charles V of Francia was eager to seize the Imperial throne for himself, and he had expanded his domain by gaining Alsace from the King of Swabia. Despite his actions to licence the number of knights in Francia Charles could field an army larger then that of any other King. But Charles was not trusted by other Kings, and his war with King Richard of Alsace made the other Kings leery of him. As they sent aid to Emperor Harald in his campaigns in Italy and Ispania the Kings of Aquitaine, Burgundy, Swabia and Saxony agreed to a pact against Francia, the Dijon League.

The fourth man was King Constantine of Bavaria. His lands had been invaded by the Magyars in 971, but he had managed to fend these attacks off successfully thanks to the actions of his predecessors, namely the Bavarian light cavalry and castle design [3]. He had crafted several alliances with the King of Moravia and the various Vicecomes of the Slavic marches, often through marriage of his daughters and sons. He, unlike Charles V, did not seek to gain land at the expense of others in the Empire, it was only the Imperial Crown that Constantine sought. Later historians, especially Bavarians, would argue that his thoughts on the politics of the Empire were very similar to that of Henry de Reims, but this is not the place for that discussion.

It was not only the nobles whom were effected by the fall of Rome. For almost a century the priests of the west had preached that the Greeks were heretics, and now that heretics had seized Rome it was seen as a sign of the coming of the Apocalypse. Constantinople was the whore of Babylon, the seven heads of the great beast were the seven hills of the city. [4] Apocalyptic violence spread with the word of the fall of Rome, fed on a diet of famine and natural disaster. The preacher Urban the Hermit gathered a great following in the Toulouse when he proclaimed that he had seen a ‘great fire shoot across the sky’ [a comet] on the day that Rome fell, and he urged his followers that this was a sign from God to punish those clergy who draped themselves in finery and large estates. At the head of a large peasant mob he attacked monasteries, confiscating their lands and expelling monks from their cloisters. In retaliation the Advocatus mustered their men against Urban, and vicious fighting spread across Aquitaine. The same comet would cause similar peasant revolts across Saxony, Holland and Flanders.

The turmoil was not restricted to the Western Empire, as in September the Bogomil heresy had emerged in the Bulgarian duchies of the Eastern Empire, and Domestikos John Mouzalon was forced to withdraw from Italy to help suppress the revolt, which had wrecked the trans-Danubian lands. Northern Italy was free of Greek armies, but her coast was still raided by the Greek navy periodically throughout the Second Sicilian Crisis.

By September Northern Italy was no longer a field of war, but in Latium the war was beginning yet again. Desperate to reclaim Rome and secure his title of Emperor of the Western Roman Empire Harald marched from Pisa to fight the Greek Emperor Nikolaos. Nikolaos met the challenge, and once he had received fresh soldiers from Benevento and Apulia he left Rome with an army of twenty thousand. For two months the armies of the two Emperors manoeuvred around Latium and Umbria, avoiding each other whilst raiding each others camps. Fate dictated that the two Emperors would have to face each other on the field of battle. The Battle of the Two Emperors took place on the 14th of November 971 on the outskirts of the town of Perugia.

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“The great mistakes of the past haunt us to this very day. The gross misuse of the title of King by the Carolingian Emperors is the best example of this. They created Kings were Dukes would have done the same job, and had done so for many centuries. The leader of a staam has always been a Duke, and rule of the land should not be left in their hands, for they bicker and argue, and splinter the land through their arguments. Furthermore Frankia should be destroyed. [5]”
- Henry de Reims, speaking to the Council of Stuttgart, 974

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[1] Not the OTL Pierleoni family.

[2] With the exception of the Primate of Ispania and the Primate of Italy.

[3] More on this in a later episode.

[4] This analogy occurred IOTL Western Europe.

[5] Henry is channeling Cato the Elder here.

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Thoughts?
 
Looks like the Western Empire will be torn asunder. Doesn't mean that they won't pull back together though.

Yeah, its rough in the WRE at the moment. comparable to the violence of the time in OTL it is no more and no less, just different.

When (most of) the WRE pulls back together, the world will quake.
 
Troubled times ahead for the WRE, however in such a crucible they may be remade stronger. A good read Scarecrow. Any chance of a map showing the events in Italy?
 

Nikephoros

Banned
I do see the potential for a smaller, more centralized WRE. It will be a hard fight to regain unity, but the leader who does will probably take measures to centralize.

But what happens is dependent on you, Scarecrow:cool:
 
Troubled times ahead for the WRE, however in such a crucible they may be remade stronger. A good read Scarecrow. Any chance of a map showing the events in Italy?

I might post a small map soon, just to show the lay of the land.

I do see the potential for a smaller, more centralized WRE. It will be a hard fight to regain unity, but the leader who does will probably take measures to centralize.

But what happens is dependent on you, Scarecrow:cool:

Well I might be a slightly biased source, but yeah a new centralize WRE should emerge by the end of the millennium. The problem for reformers is defeating the Kings, which I will deal with shortly. Having a strong centralized bureaucracy helps quite a bit, as does the presence of an army independent of control by the Kings.
 
Well I might be a slightly biased source, but yeah a new centralize WRE should emerge by the end of the millennium. The problem for reformers is defeating the Kings, which I will deal with shortly. Having a strong centralized bureaucracy helps quite a bit, as does the presence of an army independent of control by the Kings.

Why do I get the feeling that if breakaway movements in Ispania and Italy help the remaing WRE to centralize, that the Eastern Empire's sucess and potential terriorial / feudal acquistions will not lead to it's happy transformation?
 
Why do I get the feeling that if breakaway movements in Ispania and Italy help the remaing WRE to centralize, that the Eastern Empire's sucess and potential terriorial / feudal acquistions will not lead to it's happy transformation?

The only thing I can say is perhaps, since it depends what period you are talking about. Both the WRE and ERE will change and their power/territory will fluctuate over time. And since this TL is more intended as a Carolingian Empire/HRE wank then the ERE may well suffer at some stage. But not right now, so all you Byzantophiles can rejoice.
 

General Zod

Banned
The only thing I can say is perhaps, since it depends what period you are talking about. Both the WRE and ERE will change and their power/territory will fluctuate over time. And since this TL is more intended as a Carolingian Empire/HRE wank then the ERE may well suffer at some stage. But not right now, so all you Byzantophiles can rejoice.

I see. However, as an awowed HREphile/Germanophile/Europhile (I'd use the word "wankist" but is it ever exists or I'm pulling it out thin air ? :confused:), I'm mostly interested in seeing the HRE core survive and develop as a successful, centralized state. If Spain and maybe Italy (my poor Italy :() must break away and succumb to feudal unrest, in order to reduce the rest to something that may realistically evolve into a centralized state, at least the Franco-German-Polish-Bohemian core ought to succeed in its imperial destiny.

I do not care too much about the triumphs of ERE as much as I worry about the defeats and setbacks of HRE. This is the second or maybe third great crisis they suffer in two centuries, and the first they lose so big chunks of territory, it is reasonable they react to pull back the rest and advance in their internal development.
 
I see. However, as an awowed HREphile/Germanophile/Europhile (I'd use the word "wankist" but is it ever exists or I'm pulling it out thin air ? :confused:), I'm mostly interested in seeing the HRE core survive and develop as a successful, centralized state. If Spain and maybe Italy (my poor Italy :() must break away and succumb to feudal unrest, in order to reduce the rest to something that may realistically evolve into a centralized state, at least the Franco-German-Polish-Bohemian core ought to succeed in its imperial destiny.

Spain and Italy won't do to badly in the long run. They may even do better on their own then as part of the Empire, although Italy will be divided.

I do not care too much about the triumphs of ERE as much as I worry about the defeats and setbacks of HRE. This is the second or maybe third great crisis they suffer in two centuries, and the first they lose so big chunks of territory, it is reasonable they react to pull back the rest and advance in their internal development.

Which means destroying the power of the Kings and rebuilding the power structure of the Empire.
 

General Zod

Banned
Spain and Italy won't do to badly in the long run. They may even do better on their own then as part of the Empire, although Italy will be divided.

Yes, I know, it will keep being the contested land between the two Empires. Poor, poor Italy, always fated to find division in the Middle Ages. Oh, well, at least maybe those thrice-accursed Popes won't be able to make extensive land grabs. At least I fervently hope so, that with two big imperial states in Europe to contain the power of the Church, the continent is spared the scourge of Papal theocracy.


Which means destroying the power of the Kings and rebuilding the power structure of the Empire.

They have, if they want to endure and prosper.
 
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Hey Scarecrow, I have a few questions about the resolution of the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms Period in your timeline. Sorry for commenting on something from so long ago, but I missed the subsequent updates while on vacation and am still catching up. The reason I re-read that section was that I was doing research for my own TL, and this came up in a search.

My main question is about the Liao dynasty dividing China with Ping along the Yellow River. In OTL, the Khitans made multiple invasions and conquests of China north of the Yellow River, but in all of those they withdrew. I have surmised that this was because the Khitans were fearful of gaining too much land with a sedentary Han population. There was already a precarious balance between the nomads of the north and the sedentary population of the south. It would be difficult for the Khitan to pull off maintaining the balance, but I could see it happen.

But what changed in the Khitan mentality that they would want to occupy and hold the sedentary areas around the Yellow River? As far as I can tell no butterflies affected Liao until the Ping agents instigated them to attack Later Zhou. So unless there were some other changes, the Liao would be unlikely to occupy the Yellow River area. I'm not saying it's impossible, but I would like to know your reasoning for it.

*Waits to be steamrolled by all the Chinese enthusiasts*
 
Hey Scarecrow, I have a few questions about the resolution of the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms Period in your timeline. Sorry for commenting on something from so long ago, but I missed the subsequent updates while on vacation and am still catching up. The reason I re-read that section was that I was doing research for my own TL, and this came up in a search.

My main question is about the Liao dynasty dividing China with Ping along the Yellow River. In OTL, the Khitans made multiple invasions and conquests of China north of the Yellow River, but in all of those they withdrew. I have surmised that this was because the Khitans were fearful of gaining too much land with a sedentary Han population. There was already a precarious balance between the nomads of the north and the sedentary population of the south. It would be difficult for the Khitan to pull off maintaining the balance, but I could see it happen.

But what changed in the Khitan mentality that they would want to occupy and hold the sedentary areas around the Yellow River? As far as I can tell no butterflies affected Liao until the Ping agents instigated them to attack Later Zhou. So unless there were some other changes, the Liao would be unlikely to occupy the Yellow River area. I'm not saying it's impossible, but I would like to know your reasoning for it.

*Waits to be steamrolled by all the Chinese enthusiasts*

Huh. I was not aware of that. Thats all I can say really:eek:. I can just retcon that northern border. Thanks for the info.
 
Huh. I was not aware of that. Thats all I can say really:eek:. I can just retcon that northern border. Thanks for the info.

I did not mean that you should retcon it. IMO the border extension would be plausible enough for TTL, so it would make the timeline no less great were the border to stay around the Yellow River. You could always make up some anecdote, like "After conquering the Later Zhou, the Liao grew tired of fighting with the Chinese to the south. Placing puppet regimes in the area and then fighting the successor as they collapsed was counterproductive for the Liao, so the emperor decided to take all the land for himself and place it in the Southern Chancellery with the other sedentary area."
 
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