Oh, and to go with the world map, here's the language map of Europe updated to 1104:
The Rise of the White Huns
- Thread starter Practical Lobster
- Start date
Was the recipe for Roman cement preserved TTL? That could have a lot of implications for architecture... Roman cement was far more resistant to water than inferior medieval cement due to the addition of volcanic dust containing high amounts of alumina and silica.
Vixagoras
Banned
Ok so I don't want to nag, but I have some concerns about the language map...
From what I understand going through the timeline as I have, although I am not all the way caught up yet, but... Islam has been butterflied. If Islam has been butterflied, then this means an entirely different development of Romance in Iberia, which doesn't appear to be being taken into consideration, although I might be wrong. From what we know of Mozarabic, it was a very different set of dialects from Castilian and its affiliated languages like Aragonese, Leonese, Asturian, Cantabrian, Extramudran, etc. Specifically, the palatalization of /k/ before front vowels like /i/ /e/ resulted in a voiceless palato-alveolar affricate, a la Italian languages. We also know that the lenition of labial and dental stops did not happen, and that is not a universal feature of Iberian Romance (Aragonese and Leonese, for example), although I don't see that being implied here. The name Mesétano sounds very Castilian to me though, and it looks as though in Iberia we have the same scenario as post-Reconquista, with dialects that would previously have been periphery alpine dialects spreading into the center of the peninsula. Without a Muslim conquest and a disintegration of the Gothic nobility, this is unlikely to happen. The Mozarabic dialects are going to be more prominent, as it was not until after the Muslim conquest that alpine dialects from the north began to spread into the south. These alpine dialects are likely to survive into the 20th century, just not as the languages of court, government, education, and media.
I think that one thing that is very important to remember in a timeline is that the evolution of language is no more predetermined than the courses of events that we play with in our timelines. Linguistic trends are started by individuals and set unconsciously or consciously (depending on the trend in question) by speech communities. If the same people are not born in your timeline, then there is really nothing to say that the same trends will be set.
In France I see the rounding of the diphthong /ei/ in 'François'. Mind you, this sound change was far from complete in this period and, given that the POD of this timeline is at least 400 years before that trend was set, I would say that it is highly unlikely to have happened at all as it is specific to French and Picard, not even being shared by all of the Langue d'Oïl. The distribution of Piedmontese is also very odd here, since it is splayed all over the heartland of the Lombard dialect continuum. Is Ravênese related to Emiglian-Romagnole? And what happened to the Ligurian dialects? Because they don't seem to have been negatively affected by French and German conquests OTL. Also, is Mauri a dialect of African Romance? And by the term "Siculi", are we referring to the almost certainly non-Indo-European, pre-Roman Siculi? Because I am pretty sure they would have been Hellenized some centuries before our POD here.
From what I understand going through the timeline as I have, although I am not all the way caught up yet, but... Islam has been butterflied. If Islam has been butterflied, then this means an entirely different development of Romance in Iberia, which doesn't appear to be being taken into consideration, although I might be wrong. From what we know of Mozarabic, it was a very different set of dialects from Castilian and its affiliated languages like Aragonese, Leonese, Asturian, Cantabrian, Extramudran, etc. Specifically, the palatalization of /k/ before front vowels like /i/ /e/ resulted in a voiceless palato-alveolar affricate, a la Italian languages. We also know that the lenition of labial and dental stops did not happen, and that is not a universal feature of Iberian Romance (Aragonese and Leonese, for example), although I don't see that being implied here. The name Mesétano sounds very Castilian to me though, and it looks as though in Iberia we have the same scenario as post-Reconquista, with dialects that would previously have been periphery alpine dialects spreading into the center of the peninsula. Without a Muslim conquest and a disintegration of the Gothic nobility, this is unlikely to happen. The Mozarabic dialects are going to be more prominent, as it was not until after the Muslim conquest that alpine dialects from the north began to spread into the south. These alpine dialects are likely to survive into the 20th century, just not as the languages of court, government, education, and media.
I think that one thing that is very important to remember in a timeline is that the evolution of language is no more predetermined than the courses of events that we play with in our timelines. Linguistic trends are started by individuals and set unconsciously or consciously (depending on the trend in question) by speech communities. If the same people are not born in your timeline, then there is really nothing to say that the same trends will be set.
In France I see the rounding of the diphthong /ei/ in 'François'. Mind you, this sound change was far from complete in this period and, given that the POD of this timeline is at least 400 years before that trend was set, I would say that it is highly unlikely to have happened at all as it is specific to French and Picard, not even being shared by all of the Langue d'Oïl. The distribution of Piedmontese is also very odd here, since it is splayed all over the heartland of the Lombard dialect continuum. Is Ravênese related to Emiglian-Romagnole? And what happened to the Ligurian dialects? Because they don't seem to have been negatively affected by French and German conquests OTL. Also, is Mauri a dialect of African Romance? And by the term "Siculi", are we referring to the almost certainly non-Indo-European, pre-Roman Siculi? Because I am pretty sure they would have been Hellenized some centuries before our POD here.
I was kind of unsure what to do with a non-Arab Iberia, what kind of distribution do you think is more likely?
TTL the Lombards went to the Balkans. I think Northern Italy will be a bit more linguistically unified because of it. I also think the coastal dialects will have undergone some merging due to the relatively greater trade and interconnectedness TTL. Mauri is a dialect of African romance; St. Augustine described African Romance as sounding like Sardinian, so imagine a less conservative Sardinian with Berber and Greek influences. Siculi is the dialect of Romance that was on Sicily before the Mauri swamped it. Maybe not the best name?
Northern Romance may be weirdly divergent TTL. There is way more interconnectedness with German areas; Paris and Aachen are both in the Imperial demesne for instance.
In Nordland and the Kola Peninsula live Lapps (Sami), they have their own language
Yes, but... while the people is ancient, having possibly inhabited the region since the Mesolithic, the Sami language is a recent arrival. Linguists don't think Sami (as in the Uralic language) was spoken there before the 10th century. What they spoke before is unknown. So it could be that, ITTL, the "Sami" have taken to speaking Finnish instead.
Re: Romance, Vixagoras has already made the same points that I wanted to make.
Huh, this is a very interesting discussion. It's not nagging at all to raise questions on the map - I basically just spot-check the whole affair because although I try, linguistics are not a field I know much about, and it's certainly not something I'd feel comfortable creating on my own without a massive amount of research.
It's also amazing to me how much can be inferred just from the name of a language. That, if nothing else, makes me want to work harder going forward to ensure my names in the timeline are plausible and accurate.
Also I was thinking, but I'm not sure how likely or accurate this is, that the Latin and German language groups would be a lot more blended, particularly at the elite level. The language of the court in Aachen for example, would probably be a unifying cultural factor among the European aristocracy. Maybe? Maybe not?
I have big things planned for the Franks though, and I'm not sure anyone who comes after the Toulouse branch of the Merovingians will use Aachen as their capital, and yet on the other hand Paris is a lot less prominent in this timeline - having only briefly been a royal capital compared to OTL. (Also the main reason I picked Aachen was so that this alternate history might have yet another sort of "rhyme" with our own.)
It's also amazing to me how much can be inferred just from the name of a language. That, if nothing else, makes me want to work harder going forward to ensure my names in the timeline are plausible and accurate.
Also I was thinking, but I'm not sure how likely or accurate this is, that the Latin and German language groups would be a lot more blended, particularly at the elite level. The language of the court in Aachen for example, would probably be a unifying cultural factor among the European aristocracy. Maybe? Maybe not?
I have big things planned for the Franks though, and I'm not sure anyone who comes after the Toulouse branch of the Merovingians will use Aachen as their capital, and yet on the other hand Paris is a lot less prominent in this timeline - having only briefly been a royal capital compared to OTL. (Also the main reason I picked Aachen was so that this alternate history might have yet another sort of "rhyme" with our own.)
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Vixagoras
Banned
Well, since I am not that far in the timeline yet, I am not entirely familiar with the political development of the area, but skipping ahead I can see that Spain is a distant province of a larger empire that includes France, Germany and Italy as well. That being said, I am not going to complain about the distribution of Catalan or Catalan-like dialects (because again, the development of language is as fluid, if not more so, than the development of culture), as a southward expansion of the language is possible if cities in the northeast become important trading centers, although given the nature of this Frankish Empire that seems unlikely. Catalan is most closely related to Occitan, although the two aren't entirely that close, and so what you are more likely to see is a southward expansion of dialects from southern France (these were the languages of court for a brief time in the Medieval Period), or a northward expansion of montane Catalonian dialects into the south of France. It all depends on which cities are the most prestigious and therefore your trend-setters. However, Catalan being CALLED Catalan with such an early POD is entirely unlikely, as that name comes from a very specific set of events that happened OTL. Your alpine dialects from which Castilian and its affiliates descend are likely to be restricted to the mountains in the north, with "Mozarabic" dialects prevailing in the interior and the south. Something like the name "mesétano" is possible, but again, it really depends entirely on where your trend-setting cities and regions are. What is the educational/commercial center? What is the governmental center? Is Classical Latin still the language of the law or is Frankish, Gothic, or something else? It really depends. The name "andalucíano" is a total no go though, because "Andalucía" is a direct descendant of the Arabic term "Andalus", and the Muslim invasion didn't happen ITL, so... yeah. The name of the language in Portugal is ok, but the Romans called the region Lusitania, not "Lucitania", so you needn't worry about whether to palatalize a velar stop here, as it was a sibilant to begin with.
I understand that, but the Lombard language that I am referring to, called "Lumbaart" today and "dialetto lombardo" in Italian is not a Germanic language, but a Romance one. It covers most of the Po River Valley from Milan to Bergamo and extends north into Switzerland, and despite hundreds of years of domination by the Holy Roman Empire, northern Italy ended up very linguistically diverse OTL. You might have different dialects because of different movements of people, but that doesn't mean that unity is always going to be a factor. There are geographical factors to be considered, like several rivers coming down from the Alps that cut up the Po River Valley, like the Ticino, and Piedmontese is primarily an alpine dialect that seems to have once been a part of a dialect continuum leading into Occitan in the lowlands of Southern France. If the cities of the eastern Po River Valley are as important ITTL as they were OTL, THEY will be the trend setters, not the dialects of montane ruffians.
Mauri is fine, but the name "Siculi" is a no no. lol. It depends on what central Sicily is being called, and quite honestly, it might just be called "Siciliano" or "Sicilianico" or something like that, depending on how much Greek is influencing the local dialects. Palermo however was called Panormos until some hundreds of years after the Norman Conquest, and was Greek-speaking for most of the Medieval Period. I think that in Southern Italy and Sicily, Greek would be the language of cities, while Romance would be the language of the country. So a more spotty distribution of Greek is probably in order.
Regarding the development of French dialects. Your POD is VERY early, and I am not quite so far in to see how broadly this has affected France just yet but, if Paris and the Loire Valley are not important political centers than the Langues d'Oïl as a whole might be in a similar position to the Langues d'Oc OTL. This means that the Langues d'Oc might be headed progressively north into "Angevin" linguistic territory, as the peoples of Angieus (as it was called at the time, positing that your early POD did not butterfly a name more similar to Andegavis) might be looking south instead of north. They will not be that important, and will be phonologically influenced by the languages around them. That said, the radical shift of /ei/ to /oi/ and eventually to /we/ and then /wa/ is almost definitely not going to happen ITL. So calling the language "François" is probably a misnomer. Likewise, if Aachen is the Frankish capital, and the empire is the Frankish empire, than associating the dialects of the Seine and Loire valleys with the Franks is probably not going to happen. That happened OTL because the Franks colonized France and the empire split, with Saxons in Germany and Franks in France. In such a timeline, dialects in this area are likely to be named after the areas in which they are spoken rather than a ruling political elite. Greater influence from Germanic is possible, especially if you move more Germans into France and your trend-setting cities are German-speaking, but "blending" as in the case of a mixed language or a creole is unlikely, I think, given the status that Latin enjoyed as the lingua franca of Europe at the time which was memorialized in the language's status in the Catholic Church.
One may also consider an expansion of Piedmontese westward as opposed to southward without a dividing border between the Holy Roman Empire and the Frankish Kingdom in the Alps as well. Just a thought. Important commercial centers might established in the Alps with free movement between Italy and France, and if traders head north to Aachen, you might see a move north of the language as well as young Piedmontese-speakers move to German-speaking cities in the north and establish ethnic enclaves. It really depends on how many move at a given time.
Just don't be afraid to play around a little more. Linguistic trends, again, come from individuals. The same people aren't being born ITTL, so radical sound shifts that make languages unrecognizable to people OTL are totally possible
To avoid spoilers for you, broadly speaking the Europe I've created is generally more unified, more populous, and more interconnected. It has a long history of united and yet somewhat decentralized empire.
So I think a lot of what you say rings true.
So I think a lot of what you say rings true.
Angers is known as Angeve TTL. In general I've tried to follow PL in using a somewhat more archaic derivation for TTL's "modern" names, so Poitiers is Poitevie, Genoa is Genova, etc. I appreciate the feedback, especially regarding Spain. I'll try to revamp the map in a day or two according to your suggestions since you seem to know a lot more about Romance linguistics than me. Mind if I bounce a new version off you via PM?
Paris is still supposed to be an important political center, IIRC. Might make more sense to call the local dialect "Parisien" or similar, though.
Anyway, here is Chapter 6 of the vignette series!
----
The plan was thus settled. Lorenzo and the ships would bide their time by making a trip to Cyprus to pick up worked bronze bound for Messana, sell it to recoup expenses, then return to Tamietha to await further news. Theophilos of Naucratis had an in with the Kuptic Greek communities everywhere he went, it seemed, and his ample friends were happy to communicate messages between Tiametha and Klysma.
So it was in December of 1096, 308 Franks, Hellenes, and Angles set out across the Sinai Desert with several tons of gold, silver, and the trade goods of the Furthest West. In their carts were fine Genovese ceramics, Venizian glassware, Travemunde ambers, Mauri wine and furs from the forests of Gautaland. The especially fine Cantabrian steel of the Anglish guards and the inferior, but serviceable plate of the Exarch’s men stood in contrast to the motley armor of the Paulici retainers… a mix of men from the span of the South Frankish Empire and Mauritania. Along with Zimon’s handpicked Mauri stalwarts was a crew of Berber caravan guards who had signed on at the last minute in Messana, led by a personable but slightly greasy man named Amanar…
On arriving in Klysma, Theophilos, Valentinio, and Marcelo, as representatives of the Papal, Exarchal, and merely mercantile sections of the expedition, went together to the Greek community to inquire about captains interested in sailing to Adulis, particularly Arab Christians… they had entered the Church of Moses near the seashore where Theophilos went to meet with his local contacts. As they waited for a message from a certain Greek dockworker, they had a conversation:
“We need someone we can trust,” said Marcelo. “This expedition is far too valuable to leave in the hands of an honorless man.”
Theophilos smiled. “Do not worry, Marcelo. You can trust me when I say that finding trustworthy men is a rather simple matter in Egypt these days.”
“How’s that?” Valentinio piped in. “All I have seen so far are miserable thieves. Ruled by treacherous pagans, no less.”
It was not quite true, thought Marcelo, as Theophilos’s people were quite hospitable, and of course he knew where to find a few good men in Alexandria. Still, those “cargo inspectors” had left them about half a cart lighter…
Theophilos’s smile went blank. “Yes, those treacherous pagans…” he began, “…tell me what you know, Valentinio, of the treacherous pagans.”
Valentinio frowned and tilted his head at Theophilos. “Well… I know that these are barbarous ruiners who preach that the highest goal of man should be to annihilate their own souls…[1] what else is there to know?”
“What else indeed!” began Theophilos, “Tell me, young man, by any chance have you heard of the rebellion of 1067?”
“What rebellion?” said Valentinio.
“The Egyptian one, of course. That was the one that happened when the Satrap Mitradarma, cursed be his name, arrogated the right to appoint the Patriarch and the bishops to himself. We called it the War of the False Patriarch… the Khardi just called it another Egyptian revolt. A true Patriarch was proclaimed by the Church and we had our little war…” Now he was staring at something a thousand miles or thirty years away. “We lost. We killed that false Patriarch Paphnoutos and they never quite dared to appoint another one... but we still lost. The Khardishahs were displeased that faithful Egyptians had such fight left in them. They acted to… demotivate the survivors.”
Marcelo suddenly recalled a vague memory of a story his father had told him about that time he had been stuck in Alexandria when everything went to hell…
Valentinio had crossed his arms. “Hmm,” he said, “what did they do?”
Theophilos’s face had stopped moving, though his lips did. “Oh… what they always do. Exterminated a few villages. Confiscated everything they could lay their fingers on. Made examples of the ringleaders… do you know I was once an Archbishop?”
That was it, Marcelo thought, Theophilos was the name of that Archbishop who had ordered the mob to throw the Khardi garrison commander into the Nile… wearing his armor.
“Really,” said Valentinio.
“Oh yes. I was the last Archbishop of Alexandria. The last one not given the tacit seal of approval by the Satrap, anyway. They couldn’t get their hands on me, so they decided to punish me in other ways… they burned my home of Naucratis to the ground. Two millennia it stood and the Khardi ended it. They deported every resident to Mesopotamia, tore down the churches, and brought in a clan of heathen Bajinaks to squat in the ruins.” He narrowed his eyes. “You know I had a wife and son once? I hope they are still alive, somewhere…”
Valentinio’s face had caught some of the gloom of Theophilos’s story. “I suppose we should expect no less from these heathens,” he said.
“No.” said Theophilos. “The Khardi are a warrior people, they prefer to let other people do their growing for them. But do you know what they have grown a bounty of in Egypt, all by themselves?”
“What?” said Valentinio.
“Enemies.” finished Theophilos. A few seconds later a certain Greek dockworker came back accompanied by a stocky, swarthy Egyptian man and a mustachioed Arab. The dockworker poked out his head to scan the street in both directions, then closed the church door, and locked it.
[1] A very confused version of Buddhist belief in escaping the cycle of birth and rebirth by transcending the self.
Paris is still supposed to be an important political center, IIRC. Might make more sense to call the local dialect "Parisien" or similar, though.
Anyway, here is Chapter 6 of the vignette series!
----
The plan was thus settled. Lorenzo and the ships would bide their time by making a trip to Cyprus to pick up worked bronze bound for Messana, sell it to recoup expenses, then return to Tamietha to await further news. Theophilos of Naucratis had an in with the Kuptic Greek communities everywhere he went, it seemed, and his ample friends were happy to communicate messages between Tiametha and Klysma.
So it was in December of 1096, 308 Franks, Hellenes, and Angles set out across the Sinai Desert with several tons of gold, silver, and the trade goods of the Furthest West. In their carts were fine Genovese ceramics, Venizian glassware, Travemunde ambers, Mauri wine and furs from the forests of Gautaland. The especially fine Cantabrian steel of the Anglish guards and the inferior, but serviceable plate of the Exarch’s men stood in contrast to the motley armor of the Paulici retainers… a mix of men from the span of the South Frankish Empire and Mauritania. Along with Zimon’s handpicked Mauri stalwarts was a crew of Berber caravan guards who had signed on at the last minute in Messana, led by a personable but slightly greasy man named Amanar…
On arriving in Klysma, Theophilos, Valentinio, and Marcelo, as representatives of the Papal, Exarchal, and merely mercantile sections of the expedition, went together to the Greek community to inquire about captains interested in sailing to Adulis, particularly Arab Christians… they had entered the Church of Moses near the seashore where Theophilos went to meet with his local contacts. As they waited for a message from a certain Greek dockworker, they had a conversation:
“We need someone we can trust,” said Marcelo. “This expedition is far too valuable to leave in the hands of an honorless man.”
Theophilos smiled. “Do not worry, Marcelo. You can trust me when I say that finding trustworthy men is a rather simple matter in Egypt these days.”
“How’s that?” Valentinio piped in. “All I have seen so far are miserable thieves. Ruled by treacherous pagans, no less.”
It was not quite true, thought Marcelo, as Theophilos’s people were quite hospitable, and of course he knew where to find a few good men in Alexandria. Still, those “cargo inspectors” had left them about half a cart lighter…
Theophilos’s smile went blank. “Yes, those treacherous pagans…” he began, “…tell me what you know, Valentinio, of the treacherous pagans.”
Valentinio frowned and tilted his head at Theophilos. “Well… I know that these are barbarous ruiners who preach that the highest goal of man should be to annihilate their own souls…[1] what else is there to know?”
“What else indeed!” began Theophilos, “Tell me, young man, by any chance have you heard of the rebellion of 1067?”
“What rebellion?” said Valentinio.
“The Egyptian one, of course. That was the one that happened when the Satrap Mitradarma, cursed be his name, arrogated the right to appoint the Patriarch and the bishops to himself. We called it the War of the False Patriarch… the Khardi just called it another Egyptian revolt. A true Patriarch was proclaimed by the Church and we had our little war…” Now he was staring at something a thousand miles or thirty years away. “We lost. We killed that false Patriarch Paphnoutos and they never quite dared to appoint another one... but we still lost. The Khardishahs were displeased that faithful Egyptians had such fight left in them. They acted to… demotivate the survivors.”
Marcelo suddenly recalled a vague memory of a story his father had told him about that time he had been stuck in Alexandria when everything went to hell…
Valentinio had crossed his arms. “Hmm,” he said, “what did they do?”
Theophilos’s face had stopped moving, though his lips did. “Oh… what they always do. Exterminated a few villages. Confiscated everything they could lay their fingers on. Made examples of the ringleaders… do you know I was once an Archbishop?”
That was it, Marcelo thought, Theophilos was the name of that Archbishop who had ordered the mob to throw the Khardi garrison commander into the Nile… wearing his armor.
“Really,” said Valentinio.
“Oh yes. I was the last Archbishop of Alexandria. The last one not given the tacit seal of approval by the Satrap, anyway. They couldn’t get their hands on me, so they decided to punish me in other ways… they burned my home of Naucratis to the ground. Two millennia it stood and the Khardi ended it. They deported every resident to Mesopotamia, tore down the churches, and brought in a clan of heathen Bajinaks to squat in the ruins.” He narrowed his eyes. “You know I had a wife and son once? I hope they are still alive, somewhere…”
Valentinio’s face had caught some of the gloom of Theophilos’s story. “I suppose we should expect no less from these heathens,” he said.
“No.” said Theophilos. “The Khardi are a warrior people, they prefer to let other people do their growing for them. But do you know what they have grown a bounty of in Egypt, all by themselves?”
“What?” said Valentinio.
“Enemies.” finished Theophilos. A few seconds later a certain Greek dockworker came back accompanied by a stocky, swarthy Egyptian man and a mustachioed Arab. The dockworker poked out his head to scan the street in both directions, then closed the church door, and locked it.
[1] A very confused version of Buddhist belief in escaping the cycle of birth and rebirth by transcending the self.
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Going forwards, if anyone has any good scholarly sources to recommend on the Toltec, Mixtec, and Mound-Building Mississippian peoples in this time period they would be greatly appreciated.
I'm going into what will probably be an extended research and plotting phase before the story begins anew. Apart from guest posts, I expect that this thread will likely become rather quiet, but if anyone has any questions, commentary, or ideas please feel free, I'll do my best as always to answer.
I'm going into what will probably be an extended research and plotting phase before the story begins anew. Apart from guest posts, I expect that this thread will likely become rather quiet, but if anyone has any questions, commentary, or ideas please feel free, I'll do my best as always to answer.
Just q quick point, in Buddhism the goal regarding the self is not to transcend it but to transcend self and no-self. As confusing as that sounds, it is the point of the "middle way" regarding epistemology in Buddhism. Siddartha himself actively chose not to answer whether a self existed or not when asked, eventually commenting that the question did not help. In Therevada, it tends to be understood that he said this in context of the parable of the arrow (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_Poisoned_Arrow) but by the time of Nagarjuna and the later Mahayana school, it is often understood in the context of Sunyata (emptiness, that nothing has intrinsic nature but is co-dependant on context, material, phenomenon etc and is therefore ephemeral).
To add a TTL twist to your comment, among the wide range of peculiarly "western" Buddhisms, there's some divergence in the amount of mysticism and metaphysical questons they're willing to indulge. As Buddhism has blured with various indigenous pagan traditions, certain monks also took inspiration from those traditions, even if mostly they exist more in parallel than anything.
So you do get some weird, divergent philosophies that are still notionally Buddhism, and some people who do struggle with things beyond the frame of what Buddhism is concerned with. Certain sects with more zoroastrian influence have even developed things akin to the Pure Lands for their deities - the "Realm of Truth" which is overseen by the Iranian pantheon. It is these groups the Nowbahar find most offensive because they dilute the original message. Ironically, the Nowbahar also do their part to dilute the original message by being sporadically violent fanatics.
So you do get some weird, divergent philosophies that are still notionally Buddhism, and some people who do struggle with things beyond the frame of what Buddhism is concerned with. Certain sects with more zoroastrian influence have even developed things akin to the Pure Lands for their deities - the "Realm of Truth" which is overseen by the Iranian pantheon. It is these groups the Nowbahar find most offensive because they dilute the original message. Ironically, the Nowbahar also do their part to dilute the original message by being sporadically violent fanatics.
Since I am a representative of the people in your world who embraced Buddhism, then I have a question - how this fact will affect the morale (as understood here relate to the woman a little better).
I'm sorry, I don't actually follow what you're trying to ask. I don't know what country you're from, nor what you mean by morale in this context.
(On an unrelated note, does anyone ever find themselves reading over early posts of their own timelines and wishing they could change a lot of things? In hindsight I think the earliest posts are substantially weaker than my later work, in particular when it comes to describing the transition between Sasanian and Eftal Iran from a cultural standpoint. I guess there's nothing to do but carry on, but I'm always surprised that people are willing to start reading this from the beginning, especially given that I've written several novels worth of text at this point. )
I think he's asking how Buddhism will impact public morals (specifically, towards women?) in Eastern Europe/Russia.
Well, I think Jello is on his third draft of Reds! right now... I don't think anyone would object to a "definitive version", especially in the Finished Timelines section.
This actually may lead to an interesting point from a scholarly POV. Would the mass "western" buddhism actually be considered buddhism in the long run? I could see a lot of the ofshoots being so far seperated (especially those which seem to have done away with Sunyata) being regarded in later history like the sects across Hinduism who worship Buddha in an avatar like fashion. Either way, talking about what Buddhism is OTL is hard enough, ITL it will be almost impossible
I'm fairly confident more than a few good posts could be written about religion in this timeline.
Asian religion in particular defies easy characterizations and labels, particularly given the blurring of Hindu, Buddhist, and Iranian thought that is the Hephthalite legacy.
I figure though that for a lot of the western schools, Sunyata will be tough to reconcile with traditional culture compare to east asia. It makes sense that it would be one of the things to be twisted beyond recognition.
Edit: the women of Russia are in a roughly comparable position to their life in pagan Russia. Buddhism has offered some, particularly noble women, the opportunity to enter into monastic life if they choose, but otherwise things remain roughly similar. The notional spiritual equality of women is contrasted with a society that is still very much patriarchal in structure. However in the average Rus village, life goes on. Community agriculture means all hands on deck, and the average female peasant remains behind to work if her husband or sons are called up for a town levy, and otherwise engages in business and productive cottage industry during times of peace and war alike.
Since Buddhism is rather tolerant of pagan supersititions, women remain one of the important conveyors of folklore and superstition, often taking on a shaman esque role that has replaced any organized traditonal priesthood.
Asian religion in particular defies easy characterizations and labels, particularly given the blurring of Hindu, Buddhist, and Iranian thought that is the Hephthalite legacy.
I figure though that for a lot of the western schools, Sunyata will be tough to reconcile with traditional culture compare to east asia. It makes sense that it would be one of the things to be twisted beyond recognition.
Edit: the women of Russia are in a roughly comparable position to their life in pagan Russia. Buddhism has offered some, particularly noble women, the opportunity to enter into monastic life if they choose, but otherwise things remain roughly similar. The notional spiritual equality of women is contrasted with a society that is still very much patriarchal in structure. However in the average Rus village, life goes on. Community agriculture means all hands on deck, and the average female peasant remains behind to work if her husband or sons are called up for a town levy, and otherwise engages in business and productive cottage industry during times of peace and war alike.
Since Buddhism is rather tolerant of pagan supersititions, women remain one of the important conveyors of folklore and superstition, often taking on a shaman esque role that has replaced any organized traditonal priesthood.
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