The R-QBAM main thread
- Thread starter Tanystropheus42
- Start date
You can't really Q-BAM doesn't have a proper projection so, to put it mildly it's wrong and distorted
I've been saying I need to get some replies written up for weeks now, and in that time many more messages have been posted that should probably be addressed. Lets get on with it then.
I think I'll start with all the positive responses the final Raj patch received. I haven't confirmed this by going back and checking my entire post history, but I'm pretty sure my cross-post in the map thread has become my most liked post on the forums ever, which is something to be pleased with. Thanks to everyone who replied, commented or liked the posts detailing the Raj patch. I put an awful lot of work into that map, so it was good to see it being appreciated properly.
I was going to post something extremely similar to compare and contrast my patch with the current QBAM version, but you pre-empted me, so thanks for doing it anyway. That little comparison rather nicely highlights some of the more glaring flaws in the current QBAM Raj patch, but to pick just one example, I'll focus on the lakes in southern Hyderabad. Firstly, those lakes simply should not exist, as they are reservoirs, constructed in the 50's and 60's. However the more fatal problem is their placement - those reservoirs are on the Krishna River, which forms the border between the modern Indian states of Telangana and Andhra Pradesh, and which during the Raj formed the southern border of Hyderabad. Aside from the fact that these lakes are shown when they absolutely shouldn't be, they're in the wrong place, as if the historical and modern borders actually lined up as they should, then they should be on the border. But they aren't, which just hammers home just how flawed the QBAM Raj patch is.
Just one of the more glaring errors, but there are plenty more if you know where to look
What do you mean by 'Europe detail map'?. There's the 1914 map, the 1929 map, and the blank base-geography 1914 map (all three of which are alas mildly outdated, as I've made some tweaks to Europe since then). Hopefully one of the three is the one you're looking for.
Nice, but as always, there are a tonne of reservoirs that shouldn't exist that far back. Fortunately, I do plan to do a global 1914 base-geography patch at some point reasonably soon after the main map is finished, which should be helpful for producing all the historical patches you or anyone else wants to do in the future. I'm also considering creating some sort of graphic/map to show when each reservoir was added, however poor sourcing and other complexities I won't get into here mean that that will have to come later, if at all.
At some point eventually in the vague future yes, that is the next thing I'll do to the Raj patch, however not for some time. After a lot of hold-ups, distractions and tangents, I really want to get the R-QBAM basemap finished, so I'll be focusing on that for the foreseeable future. It'll be a long time before I work on the Raj patch (or the broader 1914 patch for that matter) again.
Basically, what @Kvasir said.
Yeah, I'm aware that quite a few changes have happened since January 1st 2022. To name just the obvious ones, a good chunk of Ukraine remains under Russian occupation, Artsakh no longer exists as of last week, and the frontlines of multiple messy civil wars in Africa have slowly shifted from how I originally portrayed them.
For now though I'm sticking with the above date, as it means I can produce a consistent de-facto control map of the world without having to backtrack to areas I've already covered to update frontlines, especially considering how fiddly a job that was in places. To highlight the worst example, mapping the rebel groups of the eastern DRC was particularly hellish, and is not an experience I wish to repeat.
If somebody else wants to turn their hand at an updated political control map, be my guest, but for now I'm focusing on getting the basemap done.
My current estimation is that I'll finish the Americas at some point in the new year, hopefully at some point in January. After that, I'm not sure how long the rest of the world will take, but I'm hoping the R-QBAM will be finished by this time next year, assuming no more hold-ups or tangents.
Yup, the Raj was a fiendishly complicated organism in places. It doesn't surprise me one bit that parts of the Gilgit Agency were governed like that. To be honest, the multiple overlapping hierarchies of administration were one of the big influences that caused me to simplify away the entire Gilgit Agency as Kashmiri vassal states (in addition to the paucity of good maps and an overwhelming desire to just finish the project), because I didn't want to have to deal with the awful mess, and had an established excuse to avoid it.
And yeah, the Survey of India is an excellent source - there's a reason I cited them so extensively, as I largely relied on their maps to reconstruct most of the Princely States. Similarly the 1939 Memoranda is instructive, but it should be noted that there are other versions. A version of the Memoranda appears to have been re-published every year or so with revisions and updates; I cited the 1939 edition so extensively as it was the first one I found, however I also heavily relied on the 1916 and 1911 editions, in addition to other versions (from 1907, 1921 and 1940) that I read less thoroughly but were still informative.
As for a larger map, my problem is that I am too much of a perfectionist. One of the reasons I originally gravitated to making maps with the QBAM in the first place is that I feel that it possess the right level of detail; worldas are way to simplified IMO, while on the other hand I just know that if I was to use a larger scale map (say the MBAM or VT-BAM), then no project would ever be finished as I would drown myself in pointless details and minutiae. The scale of the R-QBAM is thus, I feel, a good compromise between detail and necessary simplification.
I've used inkscape in the past, but you would be hard-pressed finding a base map of India detailed enough to show all the really fiddly details. The alternative is stitching multiple SoI sheets together to produce a composite map, however that is more difficult than it sounds. As I said multiple times while I was producing the Raj map, one of the main reasons I laid out my decisions and sources so thoroughly was to give anyone else who wanted to build on my research a solid foundation from which to start their own. If anyone wants to make a more detailed map, go for it. Considering it took me five months to piece together the R-QBAM Raj patch, that will most likely not be me.
No matter how many times you double-check things, there always seems to be at least one mis-coloured pixel. I usually spot it, but slip-ups do happen, so thanks for pointing that one out.
Honestly, it varies. When I started I was referring back to the QBAM pretty extensively, to the extent that a few regions were borrowed with only a few minor tweaks. Off the top of my head, the borders of quite a few states in the US deep south (most notably Alabama), follow the most recent QBAM US state borders patch almost verbatim, while quite a few of the Greek islands (most notably Crete and Lesbos) were ported over from the QBAM with only a few changes.
However as time has gone by I've found myself referring back to the QBAM less and less. I still have a couple of versions of the QBAM as transparent togglable reference layers in the main R-QBAM WIP file, but I'm referring back to them more infrequently than I did at the start of the project. That doesn't mean I'm not still using them; a couple of the Canadian lakes were similarly lifted from the QBAM with only minor changes, where I felt the QBAM was already accurate enough, with the most obvious case being Lake Mistassini in Quebec. As to why I'm using the QBAM less as a reference, it's largely due to my own confidence in mapping increasing, meaning I'm relying less on the QBAM as a crutch in difficult areas.
As for the general thematic similarities between the QBAM and R-QBAM, that is very much intentional. I've been working with the QBAM for years now, and though I recognise that it needs a replacement, the replacement I'm making hews as close as I can keep it to the original, largely out of nostalgia if I'm being honest. I can get the style of the QBAM down well because I've spent so long working with it. It further helps that I was a notable contributor to the QBAM improvement project a few years back.
You can't unfortunately, at least not directly. As @felixs explained, the QBAM is a broken map in an unknown projection and as such you can't just take the R-QBAM and reproject it into QBAM, at least, not without considerable difficulty. On the other hand, the two maps are similar enough that on a local scale quite a lot can be copied over from QBAM to R-QBAM. See my discussion of areas of the QBAM largely copied into the R-QBAM above for more detail.
I think I'll start with all the positive responses the final Raj patch received. I haven't confirmed this by going back and checking my entire post history, but I'm pretty sure my cross-post in the map thread has become my most liked post on the forums ever, which is something to be pleased with. Thanks to everyone who replied, commented or liked the posts detailing the Raj patch. I put an awful lot of work into that map, so it was good to see it being appreciated properly.
Thought some people may appreciate a direct comparison between the current Q-BAM standard for the Raj on the day Franz Ferdinand was shot, and the R-QBAM Raj patch.
I was going to post something extremely similar to compare and contrast my patch with the current QBAM version, but you pre-empted me, so thanks for doing it anyway. That little comparison rather nicely highlights some of the more glaring flaws in the current QBAM Raj patch, but to pick just one example, I'll focus on the lakes in southern Hyderabad. Firstly, those lakes simply should not exist, as they are reservoirs, constructed in the 50's and 60's. However the more fatal problem is their placement - those reservoirs are on the Krishna River, which forms the border between the modern Indian states of Telangana and Andhra Pradesh, and which during the Raj formed the southern border of Hyderabad. Aside from the fact that these lakes are shown when they absolutely shouldn't be, they're in the wrong place, as if the historical and modern borders actually lined up as they should, then they should be on the border. But they aren't, which just hammers home just how flawed the QBAM Raj patch is.
Just one of the more glaring errors, but there are plenty more if you know where to look
What do you mean by 'Europe detail map'?. There's the 1914 map, the 1929 map, and the blank base-geography 1914 map (all three of which are alas mildly outdated, as I've made some tweaks to Europe since then). Hopefully one of the three is the one you're looking for.
Nice, but as always, there are a tonne of reservoirs that shouldn't exist that far back. Fortunately, I do plan to do a global 1914 base-geography patch at some point reasonably soon after the main map is finished, which should be helpful for producing all the historical patches you or anyone else wants to do in the future. I'm also considering creating some sort of graphic/map to show when each reservoir was added, however poor sourcing and other complexities I won't get into here mean that that will have to come later, if at all.
At some point eventually in the vague future yes, that is the next thing I'll do to the Raj patch, however not for some time. After a lot of hold-ups, distractions and tangents, I really want to get the R-QBAM basemap finished, so I'll be focusing on that for the foreseeable future. It'll be a long time before I work on the Raj patch (or the broader 1914 patch for that matter) again.
Basically, what @Kvasir said.
Yeah, I'm aware that quite a few changes have happened since January 1st 2022. To name just the obvious ones, a good chunk of Ukraine remains under Russian occupation, Artsakh no longer exists as of last week, and the frontlines of multiple messy civil wars in Africa have slowly shifted from how I originally portrayed them.
For now though I'm sticking with the above date, as it means I can produce a consistent de-facto control map of the world without having to backtrack to areas I've already covered to update frontlines, especially considering how fiddly a job that was in places. To highlight the worst example, mapping the rebel groups of the eastern DRC was particularly hellish, and is not an experience I wish to repeat.
If somebody else wants to turn their hand at an updated political control map, be my guest, but for now I'm focusing on getting the basemap done.
My current estimation is that I'll finish the Americas at some point in the new year, hopefully at some point in January. After that, I'm not sure how long the rest of the world will take, but I'm hoping the R-QBAM will be finished by this time next year, assuming no more hold-ups or tangents.
Yup, the Raj was a fiendishly complicated organism in places. It doesn't surprise me one bit that parts of the Gilgit Agency were governed like that. To be honest, the multiple overlapping hierarchies of administration were one of the big influences that caused me to simplify away the entire Gilgit Agency as Kashmiri vassal states (in addition to the paucity of good maps and an overwhelming desire to just finish the project), because I didn't want to have to deal with the awful mess, and had an established excuse to avoid it.
And yeah, the Survey of India is an excellent source - there's a reason I cited them so extensively, as I largely relied on their maps to reconstruct most of the Princely States. Similarly the 1939 Memoranda is instructive, but it should be noted that there are other versions. A version of the Memoranda appears to have been re-published every year or so with revisions and updates; I cited the 1939 edition so extensively as it was the first one I found, however I also heavily relied on the 1916 and 1911 editions, in addition to other versions (from 1907, 1921 and 1940) that I read less thoroughly but were still informative.
As for a larger map, my problem is that I am too much of a perfectionist. One of the reasons I originally gravitated to making maps with the QBAM in the first place is that I feel that it possess the right level of detail; worldas are way to simplified IMO, while on the other hand I just know that if I was to use a larger scale map (say the MBAM or VT-BAM), then no project would ever be finished as I would drown myself in pointless details and minutiae. The scale of the R-QBAM is thus, I feel, a good compromise between detail and necessary simplification.
I've used inkscape in the past, but you would be hard-pressed finding a base map of India detailed enough to show all the really fiddly details. The alternative is stitching multiple SoI sheets together to produce a composite map, however that is more difficult than it sounds. As I said multiple times while I was producing the Raj map, one of the main reasons I laid out my decisions and sources so thoroughly was to give anyone else who wanted to build on my research a solid foundation from which to start their own. If anyone wants to make a more detailed map, go for it. Considering it took me five months to piece together the R-QBAM Raj patch, that will most likely not be me.
No matter how many times you double-check things, there always seems to be at least one mis-coloured pixel. I usually spot it, but slip-ups do happen, so thanks for pointing that one out.
Honestly, it varies. When I started I was referring back to the QBAM pretty extensively, to the extent that a few regions were borrowed with only a few minor tweaks. Off the top of my head, the borders of quite a few states in the US deep south (most notably Alabama), follow the most recent QBAM US state borders patch almost verbatim, while quite a few of the Greek islands (most notably Crete and Lesbos) were ported over from the QBAM with only a few changes.
However as time has gone by I've found myself referring back to the QBAM less and less. I still have a couple of versions of the QBAM as transparent togglable reference layers in the main R-QBAM WIP file, but I'm referring back to them more infrequently than I did at the start of the project. That doesn't mean I'm not still using them; a couple of the Canadian lakes were similarly lifted from the QBAM with only minor changes, where I felt the QBAM was already accurate enough, with the most obvious case being Lake Mistassini in Quebec. As to why I'm using the QBAM less as a reference, it's largely due to my own confidence in mapping increasing, meaning I'm relying less on the QBAM as a crutch in difficult areas.
As for the general thematic similarities between the QBAM and R-QBAM, that is very much intentional. I've been working with the QBAM for years now, and though I recognise that it needs a replacement, the replacement I'm making hews as close as I can keep it to the original, largely out of nostalgia if I'm being honest. I can get the style of the QBAM down well because I've spent so long working with it. It further helps that I was a notable contributor to the QBAM improvement project a few years back.
You can't unfortunately, at least not directly. As @felixs explained, the QBAM is a broken map in an unknown projection and as such you can't just take the R-QBAM and reproject it into QBAM, at least, not without considerable difficulty. On the other hand, the two maps are similar enough that on a local scale quite a lot can be copied over from QBAM to R-QBAM. See my discussion of areas of the QBAM largely copied into the R-QBAM above for more detail.
And now for the patch. As promised Saskatchewan. I would've liked to have this finished a little quicker, but RL got in the way, and will continue to get in the way for a few more weeks at least, so don't be surprised if patches come at a slightly slower pace for the next week or so.
Next up, Alberta, the easiest Canadian province left, then another chunk of Brazil.
Patch 98 - Oh, Canada 5 (Saskatchewan);
- Added Saskatchewan.
Next up, Alberta, the easiest Canadian province left, then another chunk of Brazil.
Patch 98 - Oh, Canada 5 (Saskatchewan);
- Added Saskatchewan.
It's technically set to be formally dissolved by the beginning of 2024.
True.
But for all intents and purposes, it pretty much no longer really exists.
Update to the USA 1800 Map:
- Added the rest of Canada (also removed its states)
- Roughly drew the Sioux (blank)
- Some other fixes
Also I don't feel like going through all the lakes to find which ones existed and which ones didn't at the time, especially considering the North American lakes were changed three times. (why tany)
I didn't add the new US lakes or the north Minnesota dispute (whatever its called) either cause it's a bit of effort and I am really lazy.
- Added the rest of Canada (also removed its states)
- Roughly drew the Sioux (blank)
- Some other fixes
Also I don't feel like going through all the lakes to find which ones existed and which ones didn't at the time, especially considering the North American lakes were changed three times. (why tany)
I didn't add the new US lakes or the north Minnesota dispute (whatever its called) either cause it's a bit of effort and I am really lazy.
Finally someone gets it, I too love the style of the Q-BAM!
As I expected, Alberta was, in comparison to the rest of Canada, not that difficult at all. It's landlocked, so no annoying coastline, and the lakes are much fewer than in other areas and as such were much more manageable. The south-Western border along the continental divide was a bit fiddly, and I'm not entirely pleased with it, but it should be good enough. Don't be surprised if I change it a little when I get to adding British Columbia.
Next up on the schedule is another major patch to Brazil, adding the states of Para and Amapa, followed by British Columbia and the Alaska panhandle, then North-East Brazil followed by Greenland 1.
One final quick note - by my back of the envelope calculations, finishing Alberta puts me at the halfway point through the slow but steady grind through Canada, which feels like a good milestone to hit. I've still got a lot left to do, and it may take quite a while to finish, but I will finish it, eventually.
Patch 99 - Oh, Canada 6 (Alberta);
- Added Alberta.
Next up on the schedule is another major patch to Brazil, adding the states of Para and Amapa, followed by British Columbia and the Alaska panhandle, then North-East Brazil followed by Greenland 1.
One final quick note - by my back of the envelope calculations, finishing Alberta puts me at the halfway point through the slow but steady grind through Canada, which feels like a good milestone to hit. I've still got a lot left to do, and it may take quite a while to finish, but I will finish it, eventually.
Patch 99 - Oh, Canada 6 (Alberta);
- Added Alberta.
Yes but it no longer controls any territory so effectively it doesn't exist.
Western Sahara barely controls its claimed territory yet most of the world recognizes its existence.
N.Karabagh President signed a decree dissolving the administration and there are not even any armenians left there anymore, declared date of 31 December is more of a technicality for calendar purposes and to finish off paper work for transfer of power to Azerbaijan and other legal mumbo jumbo probably
1. Only a few countries recognize Western Sahara's existence.
2. Western Sahara controls around 20% of it's claimed territory, while Artsakh now controls 0%.
3. Western Sahara has a functioning government, while Artsakh no longer does.
4. Western Sahara has a population, while basically all of Artsakh's population has fled to Armenia.
In short how are we to show on a map a state that controls no territory? It's a bit different from Western Sahara. Doesn't matter anyways as if we're making maps of the 1st of January of each year then Artsakh will legally cease to exist on January 1st anyway.
In all fairness, a lot can happen between now and January 1st
So what is the problem with the people who are actually doing the cartography waiting to make that change assuming the situation doesn't change in the next three months?
Crazy Boris
Banned
Alright so
As I understand the current situation
-Artsakh’s government has not yet been fully dissolved, just its military. The government is running on fumes but it’s still there.
-Azerbaijan has taken full control of sizable parts of Artsakh, but they haven’t occupied the entire region
-Artsakh technically still exists and still controls Territory. Wikipedia’s page on the 2023 offensive that started Artsakh’s dissolution has a map of control when Artsakh surrendered and you should be able to find a more detailed and up to date one there as well.
So until Artsakh is formally dissolved, at which point, it’s government will cease to exist and Azerbaijan will assume total control of its territory not already under their control, we should still keep Artsakh on the map.
I know it feels like Azerbaijani annexation is basically a given, but it still hasn’t happened yet, and might not if things change. It’s not wise to jump the gun and just preemptively change the map before the change de facto happens, not just because of the possibility of unforeseen developments, but more simply because it’s not accurate yet.
As I understand the current situation
-Artsakh’s government has not yet been fully dissolved, just its military. The government is running on fumes but it’s still there.
-Azerbaijan has taken full control of sizable parts of Artsakh, but they haven’t occupied the entire region
-Artsakh technically still exists and still controls Territory. Wikipedia’s page on the 2023 offensive that started Artsakh’s dissolution has a map of control when Artsakh surrendered and you should be able to find a more detailed and up to date one there as well.
So until Artsakh is formally dissolved, at which point, it’s government will cease to exist and Azerbaijan will assume total control of its territory not already under their control, we should still keep Artsakh on the map.
I know it feels like Azerbaijani annexation is basically a given, but it still hasn’t happened yet, and might not if things change. It’s not wise to jump the gun and just preemptively change the map before the change de facto happens, not just because of the possibility of unforeseen developments, but more simply because it’s not accurate yet.
For the situation to change Armenia would need to invade Azerbaijan and win, and that's not happening.
Well that isn't exactly correct. The situation is:
-Artsakh's government technically hasn't been dissolved (will be on January 1st), but the president has been detained and the rest of the politicians are also detained or in Armenia. Besides there is nothing for the government to govern anymore, considering there is no more population or territory to govern.
-Azerbaijan HAS taken full control of Artsakh and HAS occupied the whole region. The control in some of the ghost towns is a bit loose but generally the whole territory is now under control of Azerbaijani forces.
-Like I said, Artsakh does not control territory anymore. Wikipedia is a bad source and the map they have has not been updated since the surrender. If you want a more up to date map here it is.
Azerbaijani annexation has already happened. First of all there is no real formal annexation since they already consider it their territory, but their military is in control and their police and administration has moved in. With this and all the population having fled there are no developments that can change things. Besides this conversation is senseless anyway considering if we're planning on making new maps on the 1st of January of each year then on January 1st 2024 Artsakh will formally cease to exist so how things are now is irrelevant since we aren't making the new map now but whenever the R-QBam is finished so by then everything will be done and clear.
Last edited:
Azeris are now in total control of the territory, Azeri flags are flying on the buildings, they even changed the street names and over 100.000 of the previous estimated population of around 120.000 left the place, the cities and villages are mostly empty now. Azeris who were displaced in 1993 are returning to claim their properties, so Nagorno-Karabakh/Artsakh is no more.