The Amalingian Empire: The Story of the Gothic-Roman Empire

Hmm, what would you say the Domography of Gothic France and North Italy are at the moment, and what sort of role does that play in the Empire at the moment? Obviouslly they have many Gothic Settlements and will be Gothic Long term, but that process cant be anywhere near complete yet, and im curious both how far along it is and how it has effected the Empires internal politics.

Yes, this is a good point. I've been skewing away from giving too much demographic data - a result of trying to write in a style which uses in-world sources and academic papers along with narrative bits (I haven't figured out the kinds of sources that a future scholar would use to be able to derive such demographic data, nor is Atta Theodoric IV going to turn to one of his priests and say "Well, it seems as 50 percent of the county of Turin is comprised of farmers who still speak Latin. I dare say, that's less than it was ten years ago when the numbers approached 55 percent!" :p )

That being said, you are very correct in stating that the process of Gothicization is in no way fully complete yet, and won't be for some centuries. It is also not a flat rate across the board: the percentage of Goth speakers would be highest in the areas of their initial settlement, such as around Ravenna and Toulouse) where they make up a very distinct majority at this point (probably closer to 80 percent) and less in areas which are in Gothic areas but which did not initially see more than a few nobles and yeomen move to the region. On the whole, I'd say that Gothland (aka, northern Italy and southern Gaul. Those regions governed by Gothic law) would be roughly 25-35% Gothic at this point. This may seem a bit small, but its important to realize that they make up almost the entirety of the nobles and yeoman classes - which, in a premodern society are going to be by far the most influential classes in the Empire. Although significant Vallas communities exist, they are only represented within the peasantry which is bound to the land and their noble benefactor. And even amongst them there is a steady creep of the Gothic language and Gothic Church (especially seeing as how adopting both is a way to move up in society: no taxes and actual social standing! As a result, Gothicization acts as a bit of a pressure valve by skimming off the the brightest and most ambitious of the Vallas and incorporating them into the Gothic community - but not in so many numbers that they overwhelm the existing population.)
 
Yes, this is a good point. I've been skewing away from giving too much demographic data - a result of trying to write in a style which uses in-world sources and academic papers along with narrative bits (I haven't figured out the kinds of sources that a future scholar would use to be able to derive such demographic data, nor is Atta Theodoric IV going to turn to one of his priests and say "Well, it seems as 50 percent of the county of Turin is comprised of farmers who still speak Latin. I dare say, that's less than it was ten years ago when the numbers approached 55 percent!" :p )
Hmm, all of that is very interesting, I imagine at some point the lack of taxes on Goths and members of the Gothic church will have to be abolished or it will cause longer term issues, which would likely slow down the process of Gothicization. And of course its only after the question has been answered I realize I somehow misspelled it as "Domography" instead of demographics, lol.
 
Great update.

What's the current situation in corsica and sardinia? Corsica in particular would be very geographicly important to protect the empires heartland and would be a excellent naval base if future emperors rebuild the navy. Has there been any gothic settlements there?

Edit: Sardinia was also a breadbasket for Rome. That could be very useful for future emperors looking to exert influence over senatorial Italy.
 
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Hmm, all of that is very interesting, I imagine at some point the lack of taxes on Goths and members of the Gothic church will have to be abolished or it will cause longer term issues, which would likely slow down the process of Gothicization. And of course its only after the question has been answered I realize I somehow misspelled it as "Domography" instead of demographics, lol.

Random misspellings of words are one of my things - I totally understand :p

And yes, the lack of taxation on Goths is going to be a major problem at some point, though its not as total as it would initially come off. Basically, the Empire takes a lot of its money from the taxation of non-Gothic citizens, as well as through a few other means (import duties, fees on merchants, etc). But if a non-Goth is unable to pay their taxes, that debt to the state doesn't go away. Now, it an be paid off in a few ways - the person could also pay it off to the state by selling themselves into slavery, or enter into a period of work for the government, or seeking the help of a patron. The first option is actually the least popular option for everyone involved - few people want to sell themselves into slavery and slaves don't pay taxes, so it's a loss for everyone (plus there is the religious angle. Holding other Christians in slavery is frowned upon - and the Arians and Orthodox view each other as Heretics not Heathens). The second is better, because the person in question retains their freedom and will likely be rented out to a major landlord. But even here there are problems. By engaging with this option, someone is likely to be drug away their own work, making it unlikely for them to be able to pay future taxes either. Still, if the amount owed isn't too great, its viable - and likely a great number of Vallachs have done so at least once in their life. The third option, in many ways, is best. By entering into a relationship with a patron, they enter into a half-free status, but also gain physical and economic protection and support going forward. In this case the Patron agrees to pay the taxes of the half-free that they have taken under their wing and give them protection. Why would they do this? Well, the half-free are required to do work for their patron and turn over part of their yearly crops, and so the Patron generally makes enough money off of them to offset the money lost to the tax burden. Also there is a status bump involved: the Lord is seen as being benevolent by taking on the burden and paternalistic responsibility for the half-free under their control.
 
Great update.

What's the current situation in corsica and sardinia? Corsica in particular would be very geographicly important to protect the empires heartland and would be a excellent naval base if future emperors rebuild the navy. Has there been any gothic settlements there?

Edit: Sardinia was also a breadbasket for Rome. That could be very useful for future emperors looking to exert influence over senatorial Italy.

This i actually a really good question, and I have to admit to not giving too much thought to Corsica and Sardinia in some time. Both featured rather prominently during the Fourth Punic War. As of right now, both are still under the control of the Vandals, as they have been for some time - the Goths made very real efforts to drive the Vandals from the islands during the War, but they were never able to secure full control and when the war ended, they drew their forces back.

Of the two, Vandal control is much stronger in Sardinia, due to it being a major bass for the Vandal navy. Corsica is more independent and rebellious - it possesses a Vandal governor, but his control doesn't often reach far into the island's interior and highlands. Despite the peace between the Goths and Vandals, Ravenna would love nothing less than to see the two islands stripped from Vandalia and have often tried to instigate a rebellion (which, honestly, isn't all that difficult in Corsica). The Vandal presence there is one of the major reasons that the Gothic navy never fully recovered from the Fourth Punic War, and have effectively ceded naval dominance.
 
Random misspellings of words are one of my things - I totally understand :p

And yes, the lack of taxation on Goths is going to be a major problem at some point, though its not as total as it would initially come off. Basically, the Empire takes a lot of its money from the taxation of non-Gothic citizens, as well as through a few other means (import duties, fees on merchants, etc). But if a non-Goth is unable to pay their taxes, that debt to the state doesn't go away. Now, it an be paid off in a few ways - the person could also pay it off to the state by selling themselves into slavery, or enter into a period of work for the government, or seeking the help of a patron. The first option is actually the least popular option for everyone involved - few people want to sell themselves into slavery and slaves don't pay taxes, so it's a loss for everyone (plus there is the religious angle. Holding other Christians in slavery is frowned upon - and the Arians and Orthodox view each other as Heretics not Heathens). The second is better, because the person in question retains their freedom and will likely be rented out to a major landlord. But even here there are problems. By engaging with this option, someone is likely to be drug away their own work, making it unlikely for them to be able to pay future taxes either. Still, if the amount owed isn't too great, its viable - and likely a great number of Vallachs have done so at least once in their life. The third option, in many ways, is best. By entering into a relationship with a patron, they enter into a half-free status, but also gain physical and economic protection and support going forward. In this case the Patron agrees to pay the taxes of the half-free that they have taken under their wing and give them protection. Why would they do this? Well, the half-free are required to do work for their patron and turn over part of their yearly crops, and so the Patron generally makes enough money off of them to offset the money lost to the tax burden. Also there is a status bump involved: the Lord is seen as being benevolent by taking on the burden and paternalistic responsibility for the half-free under their control.

It seem to me to be the first step toward a feudalization of Gothland.

Bit it also bring up another question have the Vandals adopted Latin or do they still speak “Gothic”.
 
It seem to me to be the first step toward a feudalization of Gothland.

Bit it also bring up another question have the Vandals adopted Latin or do they still speak “Gothic”.

Yes, I think it's safe to say that the Gothic Empire is proto-Feudal or semi-Feudal in nature by this point - and likely drifting more in thst direction as time continues. Of course, certain places are more so than others, as are certain peoples: the remnants of the Roman beaurocracy are still function on some capacity in both Gothland and Senatorial Italy.. but, for those who have accepted half-free status, their lives could be described as feudal in most aspects by this point. And so it's an interesting situation, and a transformation that is occuring in different parts of the Empire at different speeds to different peoples.

But that was always one of the points of this TL - even with a Western Empire, Europe could still embrace feudalism . But also, even in a united West, the speed at which this process would occur would be different in different places.

Now, as for the Vandals, that is a good question! I woll admit to being vague on the topic, because I haven't entitelry made up my mind. On one hand, the initial Vandal popilation in North Africa was rsthet small. However, in this TL Arianism wqs strengthen and so they did not stray into Orthodoxy. Also, Eastern Germanic has become a prestige tongue amongst Germanic Euope, and a conservstove form have become the liturgical language of the German Arian churches.

On the other hand, North African Romance and Berber are the majority languages of Vandalism. And the Vandals have made a tactic alliance of sorts woth many Berber tribes.

So, two possibilities present themselves. Either the dominant language becomes a Vandalic with a heavy admixture of Berber and North African Latin OR the language is North African Romance with additiona of Vandalic and Berber

Honestly, I continued to do on which of those I find to be the most realistic ajd likely based on the scenario of this timeline.
 
I'm going to suggest that it will be much easier for Vandalic to survive, given that people heard it in church all the time.
I also think that it will be a long time for any of the three languages to become the dominate language. I think that a well educated person will need to be bi not trilingual for several hundred years.
 
I'm going to suggest that it will be much easier for Vandalic to survive, given that people heard it in church all the time.
I also think that it will be a long time for any of the three languages to become the dominate language. I think that a well educated person will need to be bi not trilingual for several hundred years.

So, kicking the can down the road a bit more. I like that :p

Actually, I think you bring up a good point, and that all three would be surviving for a long time and would be coexisting in the Kingdom.
 
So, kicking the can down the road a bit more. I like that :p

Actually, I think you bring up a good point, and that all three would be surviving for a long time and would be coexisting in the Kingdom.

Yes there’s a long tradition for languages surviving side by side. But I also think that a lot depend on the policies choices of the Vandals. If Vandals stay a small group which is pretty much just the nobility, we will likely see the rise of a creole Latin language. But if the Vandals are split between nobility, burghers and yeomen we’re far more likely to see the spread of the Vandal language. We could also see the Vandal establish Roman style colonia with Vandal yeomen being settled around these colonias. These would make a lot of sense on Sardinia and Corsica, where it would enable the Vandals to put down local uprising fast and in northern Tunisia as a way to defend the capital and in Malta as a naval base.

Also how it’s going in Seine basin? I was thinking with the Goths and Franks running each other over the region would be pretty depopulated, which could result in the Franks settling Frankish yeomen in the region. The fleeing Gallo-Romans would likely flew into the Rhineland resulting in a increase development of that region.
 
Yes there’s a long tradition for languages surviving side by side. But I also think that a lot depend on the policies choices of the Vandals. If Vandals stay a small group which is pretty much just the nobility, we will likely see the rise of a creole Latin language. But if the Vandals are split between nobility, burghers and yeomen we’re far more likely to see the spread of the Vandal language. We could also see the Vandal establish Roman style colonia with Vandal yeomen being settled around these colonias. These would make a lot of sense on Sardinia and Corsica, where it would enable the Vandals to put down local uprising fast and in northern Tunisia as a way to defend the capital and in Malta as a naval base.

Also how it’s going in Seine basin? I was thinking with the Goths and Franks running each other over the region would be pretty depopulated, which could result in the Franks settling Frankish yeomen in the region. The fleeing Gallo-Romans would likely flew into the Rhineland resulting in a increase development of that region.

The Seine was badly depopulated in Theodimir's wars against the Franks - especially as he took to a practice of scorched earth and destroyed Paris when it held out against him. There was a description of the region in our friend Romanos' writings back in, I believe, Chapter 66. The long and short of it is that the area was resettled by those Roman nobles (and their peasants) who gave up land during the establishment of Gothland. There also would have been an admixture of other peoples too. Now resettled doesn't mean particularly prosperous though - due to the region bordering the Breton lands (nominally under Gothic control - but pretty quickly thrown off under weak Emperors) as well as the Franks to the East, the region gets raided fairly frequently. The society there, as a result, is fairly frontier in character - and the feudalization has increased as many of the once-independent landholders have sought Patrons either to help pay their taxes, or for protection from raiders and bandits. Or often both. So its pretty deurbanized, and populated by heavily fortified villas. (also one of the reasons that the Franks in the last chapter kinda skirted the region in their raids, deciding to move south and west instead)

You're right that another group took land in the Rhineland as well - either those fleeing Theodimir's conquest of the Seine, or those exchanging lands in Gothland for elsewhere. Its certainly more built up than the Seine region and more prosperous as it hasn't seen the depopulation that the prior region did. Also, the raids aren't constant, and so there has been the establishment of border trading towns and communities also. But that propserity means that it does get the ire of would-be raiders on occassion as well - as happened in 682.
 
The Seine was badly depopulated in Theodimir's wars against the Franks - especially as he took to a practice of scorched earth and destroyed Paris when it held out against him. There was a description of the region in our friend Romanos' writings back in, I believe, Chapter 66. The long and short of it is that the area was resettled by those Roman nobles (and their peasants) who gave up land during the establishment of Gothland. There also would have been an admixture of other peoples too. Now resettled doesn't mean particularly prosperous though - due to the region bordering the Breton lands (nominally under Gothic control - but pretty quickly thrown off under weak Emperors) as well as the Franks to the East, the region gets raided fairly frequently. The society there, as a result, is fairly frontier in character - and the feudalization has increased as many of the once-independent landholders have sought Patrons either to help pay their taxes, or for protection from raiders and bandits. Or often both. So its pretty deurbanized, and populated by heavily fortified villas. (also one of the reasons that the Franks in the last chapter kinda skirted the region in their raids, deciding to move south and west instead)

You're right that another group took land in the Rhineland as well - either those fleeing Theodimir's conquest of the Seine, or those exchanging lands in Gothland for elsewhere. Its certainly more built up than the Seine region and more prosperous as it hasn't seen the depopulation that the prior region did. Also, the raids aren't constant, and so there has been the establishment of border trading towns and communities also. But that propserity means that it does get the ire of would-be raiders on occassion as well - as happened in 682.

Very good points.

A interesting aspect is also what will happen in a century, Scandinavian demography will hit a expansion at that point (it was caused by a climate which allow Scandinavia to build population up, so it will also happen here). In OTL the Frankish expansion against the Frisians and Saxons made the core of the Scandinavian population (Denmark) turn west. But without such Frankish expansion the Danes will likely fight the Saxons (who also hit a population expansion at the same point) over Wendish territory, on the other hand if the Frisians aren’t taken out by the Franks, they will likely become the Vikings of the West instead of the Danes.
 
Very good points.

A interesting aspect is also what will happen in a century, Scandinavian demography will hit a expansion at that point (it was caused by a climate which allow Scandinavia to build population up, so it will also happen here). In OTL the Frankish expansion against the Frisians and Saxons made the core of the Scandinavian population (Denmark) turn west. But without such Frankish expansion the Danes will likely fight the Saxons (who also hit a population expansion at the same point) over Wendish territory, on the other hand if the Frisians aren’t taken out by the Franks, they will likely become the Vikings of the West instead of the Danes.

Yes. Yes indeed. I think its safe to say that I have some plans for that. *whistles* :)
 
Annnnnnnnd we're back.

I want to take a few minutes to apologize profusely to my readers (those who are left) for the extended break in this timeline. It seems that starting a Phd during the midst of a global pandemic, while also writing a slasher script, is NOT the best time to continue a timeline (and starting a movie podcast. Can't forget THAT little side project). Which is a complicated way of saying - I was so drained over the past year and a half that I wasn't able to muster the energy to add to this monster. Think about it? Oh, constantly - the glories and travails of the Amalings have never been far from my mind; but every time I went to add to this, the sheer scope of the rereading I was going to have to do intimidated me, and off I fled to safer intellectual shores.

But that's over now. This past week I've gone through and reread the pertinent chapters and got my bearings once again, figuring out exactly where the next chapter was going to go (the general outline and major events of this timeline have been set for years, which really helps matters, but I never outline more than a chapter or two ahead at any given time. I'm not THAT organized!)

So, when will a new chapter be posted? I don't know. I'm currently writing the first chapter of my dissertation and I suspect that that will be taking up most of my energy this week. However, I also think that I'll be in a position to start picking away at the chapter in the next few days. So, fingers crossed, I'm hoping to have something posted by the end of the weekend - possibly sooner in the muses favor me, potentially a bit later if my dissertation chapter decides to be a beast. But either way, it WILL be soon - and I hope I can get into the habit of penning at least one chapter a month again.

Now, having said that, I want to also thank everyone who's been patiently waiting for me to get off my @ss and get back to this :) And if this post manages to snag any new readers ... welcome! I hope you enjoy the timeline (and it's many weird side tangents!) and the wild ride its been so far.
 
I hope your dissertation is going well
Thanks man! When I started, I didn't suspect I'd be writing my current chapter on the Irish Temperance movement in the United States - because, as a proud Wisconsinite, when people think of me, temperance is the FIRST thing that comes to mind ;)
 
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Talk of Germanic ruling classes leaving their mark on a romance peasantry had got me itching for an update, I'm glad to see this is back! Time for a reread methinks.
 
Talk of Germanic ruling classes leaving their mark on a romance peasantry had got me itching for an update, I'm glad to see this is back! Time for a reread methinks.

I'd already been inching my way back and getting into the mindset to get back to writing - but my AHC about Portugese Norse also got me even more excited and itching to come back as well :)

Now, mind you, if you're going to do an entire reread, I may just nominate you as my Continuity person and expect you to correct me if I get any of the details from older posts wrong ;)
 
Well I just so happen to have had a lot of time on trains today, and I'm done with a full re read!

First things first I want to praise you for the richness of the characters you've presented us- Adela, Amalamir and Amalaric in the Kuni wars were very compelling personalities.

The Caoimhe cycle was also very fun to read, and I loved how much it felt like every single one of those characters pops up in other stories. I hope that when the Theuts come along we get a good mythic cycle out of them as well, hopefully with some more fantastical elements.

I do have a couple things I wanna talk about, raise for discussion etc, some are continuity some are just random thoughts.
First let's get through the bits which can stand as independent points-


At one point though you make reference to Saharan sands- without an Arabic conquest of North Africa at some point, I don't see a reason why in universe translators would call the Sahara by the Arabic name. I can't find what the Romans called the Sahara though, so if anyone can help on that that would be cool.

At one point you say:

"Lachtna said. “For the Gaels will drain an ocean of wine before this night is done. Never before have I seen a folk drink as they; even Thor himself would be unable to out drink as they"

The Celtic Caoimhe cycle has a proverbial reference to Thor? How much does Theutish mythology worm itself into these epics??

Amalamirs rage at the Avar duplicity got a chuckle out of me- the way you described his anger made me think he might go the way of Valens, who had a stroke in the middle of a shouting tirade while berating goths.




You've said a few times that you see the dominant form of Arabic in the Manichean communities being a descendant of Sabaean or a south Arabian language in general. This doesn't really fit with the names you've given, which are all very *Quranic Arabic, and most definitely don't have the south Arabian post posed article. Arabic Al-Rahman, South Arabian Rahmanan. I think given the strength of the poetic koine that would give rise to Quranic Arabic in the 6th century already, it kinda comes out of left field to have it be replaced by south Arabian which had been on the decline for centuries.

On the Senate:

"Leading members of the political rebellion included members of the Anicia family, who remained powerful nobles in both the East and the West."

This is from chapter 19. One thing that I do want to flag up is that as evidenced here, the senatorial class in the east and west is the *same families*- in fact the gens Anicia you mention here was related maternally to the then current emperor Germanus. These are the same people, who will move to whichever half of the empire offers better career prospects- a system which otl collapsed in the Gothic wars. There was an offhand comment somewhere that the Romano-Persian wars that were analogous to otls 602-628 saw the eastern empire switch to Greek- I don't think this is possible because the senatorial class must remain able to work in Italy. Also if Italian senators are allowed to muster armies, as you confirmed, I think they'd definitely use them to help the east- if a senator knows that their brother who lives in Constantinople is being taxed mountains because of a war, they'd probably try and help end that war. Forget that, the same senator probably owns a villa in thrace, Hispania, Egypt and Sicily, and he'll want to protect his investment. The Italian senatorial class has the power to do that, so I think would definitely be helping out against the Avars and Slavs. For the east then, this is a brilliant situation as italy doesn't need defending but can still raise troops. Because of this, and as well because the Latin speaking regions such as moesia haven't been lost, the east is a much more Latin beast than otl. I also think it's a more religiously unified beast- monophysites and chalcedonians may differ on a lot but they're at the very least monogamous nicenes- both sides would be a lot more willing to compromise given Arianism as a constant and present threat. All these factors combined with the fact that even though Anastasius and Justin left the empire with a sizable budget surplus, and Justinian never wasted it on reconquest, the east hasn't been particularly aggressive, just makes me think the east has spent that budget on building projects and lower taxes- it must be so much more prosperous than otl. Nevertheless, I do foresee it being a major priority for eastern emperors to kick the Avars out, and maybe even take Pannonia- it would explain the fact that you mention *Slovenes receive Christianity from the Orthodox if an army from Constantinople has just conquered the gepid state.

Despite this, Im not saying that it's implausible that the Persians and Belisarius so quickly conquered Egypt and anatolia- that's just the way late Roman armies worked, in that one defeat leaves open vast chunks of the empire until such time as the army can re coordinate.

Also:

"This, despite the fact that it is likely that no Senatorial families of any standing survived Frithunanths I’s purges following the Fall of Rome."

Unless the east is also affected by this purge, those same families will be clamouring for revenge.


Also:

"Consul Aquila Marcini" given the senatorial class is the same in both halves of the empire and the tria nómina system is... More present there even otl, I think it probably would make sense for it to continue in Italy- perhaps "Flavius Marcinus Aquila"

Oh wait sorry, you confirmed this later on my bad:
"fact that late-Roman surnames continued amongst the Senatorial class of Italy when they were dropped in the rest of the Latin world is but one example of this influence. "


So, two possibilities present themselves. Either the dominant language becomes a Vandalic with a heavy admixture of Berber and North African Latin OR the language is North African Romance with additiona of Vandalic and Berber
My take on this is that even otl, before the pod, the vandal court had adopted Latin as a language of literature- there was a flowering of Latin poetry based in Africanitas, where the Vandals used the Latin language to position themselves as successors of Carthage. Additionally, given that the actual Bible itself is identical in Arianism and Nicene Christianity, the Latin Vulgate was used by the Arian vandals, and I don't see why they would switch to the Gothic Bible, which of course wasnt ever their language. I think the same situation probably exists with the Lombards- they're unable to mimic theodemirs two state solution, so would likely latinise very quickly under the influence of their Dalmatian Roman subjects.

I can understand Gothreike proper having been gothicised as a result of ethnic cleansing, strict use of gothic in law and religion etc, but I don't think those conditions exist anywhere else. Apart from in Gothreike, especially in formerly Roman provinces, it just makes sense for the Arian church to continue to use Latin.

Much as Dal Caoimhe remaining Celtic would be cool, I definitely don't see how they would resist latinising considering they even share the orthodox faith of the Baeticans.



On Arian unity:

"With the support of the state behind them, the Gothic Church soon became the predominant Arian Church in the West, and the Churches of the Vandals, Bavarians, Allemani, Avars, and Gepids came to acknowledge its primacy of place over them"

As I mentioned before, the Vandals always used Latin in their Arian Christianity, and have an older church structure- so this seems like something they wouldn't take lying down. Especially given the insistence on polygamy within the Gothic using Arian church, I expect the more romanised Latin Arian churches to anathematise this as heretical.




On the Vlachs/Romans of Hispania and Jaille:

Do these guys count as Vlachs? No right? Because Sixtus and Bishop Honorius and Eugenius make it seem like the Praetorian Prefects of Jaille and Hispania are much friendlier to the orthodox than the situation in Gothreike proper. As seen with Dal Caoimhe as well, much of their nobility is orthodox (and maybe merging with the senatorial class of Italy/the empire- you did mention that some Italian senators have holdings in Spain, indicating that the Spanish nobility is already going through that process)- this seems like a very unstable religious situation, ripe for intrigue and meddling. The vandals aren't on good terms with the goths, so I think still very well may end up going Nicene under influence from Italy/Constantinople/Dal Caoimhe, but any such move by a Praetorian prefect is asking for a full on war with Ravenna. How then do they manage the religious divisions in their administration? Perhaps a war with Ravenna is worth it to avoid the religious disputes that tore otl Byzantium apart.





This makes me bring up some thoughts on Romanitas as an ethnic identity. For many in the 4th/5th century, Romanos vocitant nostrae homines religionis. The men of our religion are called Romans. All of our Nicene sources make the distinction of Roman/Barbarian essentially the same as Nicene/Arian, Christian/Pagan. But Arianism itself sprung up in a Roman context, and Theoderic quoted Theodosius to the Jews of Genoa- for him Arian Christianity meant Romanitas. Would a Latin noble in TTL Hispania who converts to Arianism be able to see Arianism as Romanitas? Would he be seen as turning goth, or is it just a different way to be Roman?

In Ammianus otl, no matter where you're from in the empire he has a tendency to describe ethnicities as they existed before Roman contact- but will describe Bavarians, Franks and Vandals as Roman in the context of their service in the Roman military. Is a Roman simply a potential fighter in the Roman army? The most consistent marker of "barbarian" fighters is their wavering loyalty- Roman soldiers, whether Frank or goth, fighting for usurper or incumbent, only act for their emperor, and by extension pro Res publica. Civilians are cives, provinciales, sure but never Romani. That distinction is only for soldiers. Is that reproduced here? Are Italian soldiers/potential recruits more readily accepted as Romans because they fight for the state, than say Hispanian or Jaillois Latin speakers who defend themselves from raiders on a more local basis?

I do think though that the references to TTL modern Italia and Naples as states come despite the fact that the inhabitants of these states at the very least identified as Roman for a lot longer than otl.
 
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Well I just so happen to have had a lot of time on trains today, and I'm done with a full re read!

First things first I want to praise you for the richness of the characters you've presented us- Adela, Amalamir and Amalaric in the Kuni wars were very compelling personalities.

The Caoimhe cycle was also very fun to read, and I loved how much it felt like every single one of those characters pops up in other stories. I hope that when the Theuts come along we get a good mythic cycle out of them as well, hopefully with some more fantastical elements. At one point though you make reference to Saharan sands- without an Arabic conquest of North Africa at some point, I don't see a reason why in universe translators would call the Sahara by the Arabic name. I can't find what the Romans called the Sahara though, so if anyone can help on that that would be cool.

At one point you say:

"Lachtna said. “For the Gaels will drain an ocean of wine before this night is done. Never before have I seen a folk drink as they; even Thor himself would be unable to out drink as they"

The Celtic Caoimhe cycle has a proverbial reference to Thor? How much does Theutish mythology worm itself into these epics??

Amalamirs rage at the Avar duplicity got a chuckle out of me- the way you described his anger made me think he might go the way of Valens, who had a stroke in the middle of a shouting tirade while berating goths.


I do have a couple things I wanna talk about, raise for discussion etc, some are continuity some are just random thoughts.

First let's get through the bits which can stand as independent points-

You've said a few times that you see the dominant form of Arabic in the Manichean communities being a descendant of Sabaean or a south Arabian language in general. This doesn't really fit with the names you've given, which are all very *Quranic Arabic, and most definitely don't have the south Arabian post posed article. Arabic Al-Rahman, South Arabian Rahmanan. I think given the strength of the poetic koine that would give rise to Quranic Arabic in the 6th century already, it kinda comes out of left field to have it be replaced by south Arabian which had been on the decline for centuries.

On the Senate:

"Leading members of the political rebellion included members of the Anicia family, who remained powerful nobles in both the East and the West."

This is from chapter 19. One thing that I do want to flag up is that as evidenced here, the senatorial class in the east and west is the *same families*- in fact the gens Anicia you mention here was related maternally to the then current emperor Germanus. These are the same people, who will move to whichever half of the empire offers better career prospects- a system which otl collapsed in the Gothic wars. There was an offhand comment somewhere that the Romano-Persian wars that were analogous to otls 602-628 saw the eastern empire switch to Greek- I don't think this is possible because the senatorial class must remain able to work in Italy. Also if Italian senators are allowed to muster armies, as you confirmed, I think they'd definitely use them to help the east- if a senator knows that their brother who lives in Constantinople is being taxed mountains because of a war, they'd probably try and help end that war. Forget that, the same senator probably owns a villa in thrace, Hispania, Egypt and Sicily, and he'll want to protect his investment. The Italian senatorial class has the power to do that, so I think would definitely be helping out against the Avars and Slavs. For the east then, this is a brilliant situation as italy doesn't need defending but can still raise troops. Because of this, and as well because the Latin speaking regions such as moesia haven't been lost, the east is a much more Latin beast than otl. I also think it's a more religiously unified beast- monophysites and chalcedonians may differ on a lot but they're at the very least monogamous nicenes- both sides would be a lot more willing to compromise given Arianism as a constant and present threat. All these factors combined with the fact that even though Anastasius and Justin left the empire with a sizable budget surplus, and Justinian never wasted it on reconquest, the east hasn't been particularly aggressive, just makes me think the east has spent that budget on building projects and lower taxes- it must be so much more prosperous than otl. Nevertheless, I do foresee it being a major priority for eastern emperors to kick the Avars out, and maybe even take Pannonia- it would explain the fact that you mention *Slovenes receive Christianity from the Orthodox if an army from Constantinople has just conquered the gepid state.

Despite this, Im not saying that it's implausible that the Persians and Belisarius so quickly conquered Egypt and anatolia- that's just the way late Roman armies worked, in that one defeat leaves open vast chunks of the empire until such time as the army can re coordinate.

Also:

"This, despite the fact that it is likely that no Senatorial families of any standing survived Frithunanths I’s purges following the Fall of Rome."

Unless the east is also affected by this purge, those same families will be clamouring for revenge.


Also:

"Consul Aquila Marcini" given the senatorial class is the same in both halves of the empire and the tria nómina system is... More present there even otl, I think it probably would make sense for it to continue in Italy- perhaps "Flavius Marcinus Aquila"

Oh wait sorry, you confirmed this later on my bad:
"fact that late-Roman surnames continued amongst the Senatorial class of Italy when they were dropped in the rest of the Latin world is but one example of this influence. "



My take on this is that even otl, before the pod, the vandal court had adopted Latin as a language of literature- there was a flowering of Latin poetry based in Africanitas, where the Vandals used the Latin language to position themselves as successors of Carthage. Additionally, given that the actual Bible itself is identical in Arianism and Nicene Christianity, the Latin Vulgate was used by the Arian vandals, and I don't see why they would switch to the Gothic Bible, which of course wasnt ever their language. I think the same situation probably exists with the Lombards- they're unable to mimic theodemirs two state solution, so would likely latinise very quickly under the influence of their Dalmatian Roman subjects.

I can understand Gothreike proper having been gothicised as a result of ethnic cleansing, strict use of gothic in law and religion etc, but I don't think those conditions exist anywhere else. Apart from in Gothreike, especially in formerly Roman provinces, it just makes sense for the Arian church to continue to use Latin.

Much as Dal Caoimhe remaining Celtic would be cool, I definitely don't see how they would resist latinising considering they even share the orthodox faith of the Baeticans.



On Arian unity:

"With the support of the state behind them, the Gothic Church soon became the predominant Arian Church in the West, and the Churches of the Vandals, Bavarians, Allemani, Avars, and Gepids came to acknowledge its primacy of place over them"

As I mentioned before, the Vandals always used Latin in their Arian Christianity, and have an older church structure- so this seems like something they wouldn't take lying down. Especially given the insistence on polygamy within the Gothic using Arian church, I expect the more romanised Latin Arian churches to anathematise this as heretical.




On the Vlachs/Romans of Hispania and Jaille:

Do these guys count as Vlachs? No right? Because Sixtus and Bishop Honorius and Eugenius make it seem like the Praetorian Prefects of Jaille and Hispania are much friendlier to the orthodox than the situation in Gothreike proper. As seen with Dal Caoimhe as well, much of their nobility is orthodox (and maybe merging with the senatorial class of Italy/the empire- you did mention that some Italian senators have holdings in Spain, indicating that the Spanish nobility is already going through that process)- this seems like a very unstable religious situation, ripe for intrigue and meddling. The vandals aren't on good terms with the goths, so I think still very well may end up going Nicene under influence from Italy/Constantinople/Dal Caoimhe, but any such move by a Praetorian prefect is asking for a full on war with Ravenna. How then do they manage the religious divisions in their administration? Perhaps a war with Ravenna is worth it to avoid the religious disputes that tore otl Byzantium apart.





This makes me bring up some thoughts on Romanitas as an ethnic identity. For many in the 4th/5th century, Romanos vocitant nostrae homines religionis. The men of our religion are called Romans. All of our Nicene sources make the distinction of Roman/Barbarian essentially the same as Nicene/Arian, Christian/Pagan. But Arianism itself sprung up in a Roman context, and Theoderic quoted Theodosius to the Jews of Genoa- for him Arian Christianity meant Romanitas. Would a Latin noble in TTL Hispania who converts to Arianism be able to see Arianism as Romanitas? Would he be seen as turning goth, or is it just a different way to be Roman?

In Ammianus otl, no matter where you're from in the empire he has a tendency to describe ethnicities as they existed before Roman contact- but will describe Bavarians, Franks and Vandals as Roman in the context of their service in the Roman military. Is a Roman simply a potential fighter in the Roman army? The most consistent marker of "barbarian" fighters is their wavering loyalty- Roman soldiers, whether Frank or goth, fighting for usurper or incumbent, only act for their emperor, and by extension pro Res publica. Civilians are cives, provinciales, sure but never Romani. That distinction is only for soldiers. Is that reproduced here? Are Italian soldiers/potential recruits more readily accepted as Romans because they fight for the state, than say Hispanian or Jaillois Latin speakers who defend themselves from raiders on a more local basis?

I do think though that the references to TTL modern Italia and Naples as states come despite the fact that the inhabitants of these states at the very least identified as Roman for a lot longer than otl.

It's gotten a bit late here, and I'm heading to bed soon - but I wanted to respond and acknowledge that I saw this post and read your amazingly detailed comments. I'll try to respond in detail tomorrow to many of the points and ideas you've brought up!
 
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