Objectivist States of America

[history nerd]

An Objectivist America is unlikely. The idea of forming a new state or "state within a state" are quite ingrained into the Objectivist mythos. Objectivists, more so than other forms of libertarians aren't interested in reforming the system or starting a revolution.

It should also be pointed out that a libertarian state won't necessarily be an Objectivist one. Objectivism is a unique ideology with some very specific sets of beliefs and policies.

 

[Tom Colton]

Which should tell you how hard it is to have a coup in the US. The closest we came was a couple of rich assholes (several of whom ran New Deal programs) complaining about the New Deal and talking about how much better the US would be after a coup. The fact that they chose Butler, a well known pacifist and anti-corporate firebrand, to lead should tell you how serious they were.

Should've gone with good old George van Horn Moseley...

 

[Commissar From Kiev]

An Objectivist America is unlikely. The idea of forming a new state or "state within a state" are quite ingrained into the Objectivist mythos. Objectivists, more so than other forms of libertarians aren't interested in reforming the system or starting a revolution.

It should also be pointed out that a libertarian state won't necessarily be an Objectivist one. Objectivism is a unique ideology with some very specific sets of beliefs and policies.

'State within a state', huh?
So, I guess Rapture is the most probable Objectivist society (just not underwater).

 

[history nerd]

'State within a state', huh?
So, I guess Rapture is the most probable Objectivist society (just not underwater).

Yes... Rapture is based on "Galt's Gulch" from Rand's Atlas Shrugged. Objectivists are always attempting these sorts of things (see the seasteading movement). Objectivism for a whole nation would be seen as silly since Objectivist society is, by it's very nature, un-inclusive. Moderate forms of libertarianism (civil libertarianism and moderate laissez faire economics) are possible but the more hard core forms of libertarianism like Objectivism, Rothbardianism etc. are not.

 

[Commissar From Kiev]

Yes... Rapture is based on "Galt's Gulch" from Rand's Atlas Shrugged. Objectivists are always attempting these sorts of things (see the seasteading movement). Objectivism for a whole nation would be seen as silly since Objectivist society is, by it's very nature, un-inclusive. Moderate forms of libertarianism (civil libertarianism and moderate laissez faire economics) are possible but the more hard core forms of libertarianism like Objectivism, Rothbardianism etc. are not.

What about America becoming a theocracy? Would that be possible?

 

[history nerd]

What about America becoming a theocracy? Would that be possible?

I suppose... It depends exactly what you mean by theocracy though. Religion could certainly play a bigger role in the USA... Don't know if a full theocracy is possible. Best PODs are 1700s although a cold war POD involving terrible conservative constitutional originalism might be possible.


...but you do know that Objectivism and Theocracy are not related at all. Objectivism is explicitly opposed to Theocracy. (not that they aren't both terrible) It seems that you might not know too much about Objectivism, I would suggest going out and reading up a bit on Objectivism outside of Bioshock.

 

[TFSmith121]

There's this concept called freedom of religion;

What about America becoming a theocracy? Would that be possible?

There's this concept called freedom of religion; fairly significant in US history, actually - there were reasons the Puritans left England when they did, the Quakers set up shop in Pennsylvania, the Catholics colonized Maryland, etc.

These individuals, or their parents and grandparents, had lived through the Reformation, the Counter-reformation, etc, and had seen the joyful impact of religious wars on what passed for civil sociey; they were trying to avoid that...

hence:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

You may want to look into this a little more deeply.

Best,

 

[Napoleon IV]

What about America becoming a theocracy? Would that be possible?

It has the same problems as getting America to become Objectivist is. While Americans are generally Christian the fire and blood, God must be everywhere Christians are seen as nuts, just like Objectivists.

 

[Commissar From Kiev]

I suppose... It depends exactly what you mean by theocracy though. Religion could certainly play a bigger role in the USA... Don't know if a full theocracy is possible. Best PODs are 1700s although a cold war POD involving terrible conservative constitutional originalism might be possible.


...but you do know that Objectivism and Theocracy are not related at all. Objectivism is explicitly opposed to Theocracy. (not that they aren't both terrible) It seems that you might not know too much about Objectivism, I would suggest going out and reading up a bit on Objectivism outside of Bioshock.

It was an unrelated query.
I know that Ayn Rand loathed religion.

 

[Commissar From Kiev]

There's this concept called freedom of religion; fairly significant in US history, actually - there were reasons the Puritans left England when they did, the Quakers set up shop in Pennsylvania, the Catholics colonized Maryland, etc.

These individuals, or their parents and grandparents, had lived through the Reformation, the Counter-reformation, etc, and had seen the joyful impact of religious wars on what passed for civil sociey; they were trying to avoid that...

hence:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

You may want to look into this a little more deeply.

Best,

Yes, freedom of religion.
But have you seen the sheer number of Christian fundamentalists in the Bible Belt? Many of them are convinced that said freedom of religion applies only to their particular Christian sect.

But, I do recognize that an American theocracy is kinda ASB.

 

[Alien and Sedition Bat]

The best you'd get is a conservative Republican president who'd pay some lip service to Rand's ideas without really trying to put them into practice.

 

[history nerd]

Yes, freedom of religion.
But have you seen the sheer number of Christian fundamentalists in the Bible Belt? Many of them are convinced that said freedom of religion applies only to their particular Christian sect.

But, I do recognize that an American theocracy is kinda ASB.

Without devolving into a discussion that belongs in pol-chat let me just say that social conservatism isn't the same as theocracy. This is what I meant by "religion could play a bigger role"

 

[TFSmith121]

And yet the individuals you are referring to have

Yes, freedom of religion.
But have you seen the sheer number of Christian fundamentalists in the Bible Belt? Many of them are convinced that said freedom of religion applies only to their particular Christian sect.

But, I do recognize that an American theocracy is kinda ASB.

And yet the individuals you are referring to have never managed to elect one of their own to anything significant in the modern era, have they?

Yeah, it's kinda...

Best,

 

[Brundlefly]

Instead of going for the third party option, the libertarians (both the Young Americans for Freedom and the yippies) are pursuing a strategy of 'entryism', thereby flooding both the Democrats and the Republicans with a wave of younger libertarian members. By the 1980s/1990s, with Reagonomics in full swing and Reagan including some of the more conservative Libertarians in his administration, both parties more or less share a common libertarian agenda in economics and basically control their respective parties. I'm thinking of something like a presidential face-off between Murray Rothbard (Republican) vs. Sam Edward Konkin III. (Democrat).

 

[TFSmith121]

A Jewish Republican from the Bronx and

Instead of going for the third party option, the libertarians (both the Young Americans for Freedom and the yippies) are pursuing a strategy of 'entryism', thereby flooding both the Democrats and the Republicans with a wave of younger libertarian members. By the 1980s/1990s, with Reagonomics in full swing and Reagan including some of the more conservative Libertarians in his administration, both parties more or less share a common libertarian agenda in economics and basically control their respective parties. I'm thinking of something like a presidential face-off between Murray Rothbard (Republican) vs. Sam Edward Konkin III. (Democrat).

A Jewish Republican from the Bronx and a Canadian-born Democrat from Saskatchewan... neither of whom ever managed to get elected to anything, as far as I can tell.

Yeah, that will work.

Points for inventiveness, I guess.

Best,

 

[Commissar From Kiev]

And yet the individuals you are referring to have never managed to elect one of their own to anything significant in the modern era, have they?

Yeah, it's kinda...

Best,

I get your point.
All I was saying is that there are Americans who might welcome a theocracy. They're a minority, of course.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

If the U.S. were taken over by an Objectivist state some time in between 1935 and 1960, how would that state be run?

I know that literally everything would be privatized, but how could an Objectivist government be created in America?

With a post-1900 PoD? I certainly can't think of a scenario, and it verges on ASB. Pre-1900 PoD? Well, maybe, but I can't think of a way to get there even then, but I'd believe someone else might.

 

[Commissar From Kiev]

With a post-1900 PoD? I certainly can't think of a scenario, and it verges on ASB. Pre-1900 PoD? Well, maybe, but I can't think of a way to get there even then, but I'd believe someone else might.

I'm aware that Objectivism ruling any country is pretty ASB.

 

[TFSmith121]

Yeah; there are those who would welcome

I get your point.
All I was saying is that there are Americans who might welcome a theocracy. They're a minority, of course.

Yeah; there are those who would welcome just about anything; they tend not to have much in the way of political power, however.

Best,

 

[ThePest179]

Rumsfeldia is the closest you'll get, and it's not plausible in any regard. So you might be out of luck.