good update, germany is defetead, now the principal is to get the soviets back in their border.
No Spanish Civil War in 1936 (my new Timeline)
- Thread starter Dr. Strangelove
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Dr. Strangelove
Banned
It is more like Horthy's neutralization meets Ciano taking his "get out of gulag free" card.
Nah, they're never going to live their 1940 meltdown down. It's like the popular culture image of France's six weeks in 1940 trumping one thousand years of glorious military history.
So...Gladio is just killing Heydrich? No Italian troops swarming out over Austria, no mass German destruction as Italian forces shred their last hopes for survival, just killing one man?
Granted, it's one important man, but nevertheless... the way I read your hints towards this, it always seemed to be much bigger. Or is that yet to come?
Granted, it's one important man, but nevertheless... the way I read your hints towards this, it always seemed to be much bigger. Or is that yet to come?
Dunnois you know more about this than me but if India goes
Before he makes PM won't his views on Empire change (IOTL didn't he think that after India goes it might as well all go)?
Dr. Strangelove
Banned
If that was the case, why would they bother signaling it in all their military frequencies, as if they were alerting all their forces scattered through Central Europe about Something Really Big?
Enoch Powell views on India were shaped by the fact that he spent two years there during the war working in Intelligence. It was there that he learnt Hindi and Urdu and developped an affection for the country.
However, as soon as India had become independent he was not in favour of close links between Britain and India and it is worth remembering that Enoch Powell advocated dismantling the Commonwealth during the seventies. As it was in his own view a pointless relic of the Empire.
His experiences during this timeline will likely be completely different than in ours. I can easily see him being based in Spain because of his language skills. He may not even work in intelligence TTL, but possibly in a front line combat position.
The result of these different experiences is that he will be a different man TTL, for better or for worse. Experiencing front line combat and perhaps getting wounded might greatly change his personality and mellow it to a degree. Alternatively it might stay the same as OTL and if he does not meet his alternate wife post war, I suspect that he will become very withdrawn and because of this he likely won't become Prime Minister as he won't have the social skills required for the job.
Enoch Powell very likely had Asperger syndrome and this link explains this in a bit more detail. The thing is that while Asperger syndrome may never truly disappear, it is definitely possible to reduce its extent and to mellow it to a significant degree. It is far from easy but it can happen and I think that a different experience during the war would likely do the trick in the case of Enoch Powell.
With more humanity, stronger communication skills and a better ability to relate to people Enoch Powell could become a truly formidable Prime Minsiter for Britain. Try and imagine a much brighter Tony Blair which in addition to being a genius in communication would also be a genius in policy and able to share and describe a very thorough vision of what the country should look like and how this should be done. You would have both the appearance and the substance essentially.
His beliefs and ideas will be different TTL relative to OTL, but I suspect that there would be some common threads as well.
I have researched his personality a bit (though I am yet to read the Simon Heffer biography) since I am strongly intending to use him for my own TL as well.
Strangelove I was thinking about Americanismo again the other day. As you probably know, Disneyland considered Spain as a potential European site back in the eighties instead of Paris. I am right to think that TTL Spain will get Disneyland as opposed to France considering Americanismo and all the other links?
Dr. Strangelove
Banned
Seeing how Spain slid into deep anticlericalism after the war, it is more likely that it was left unfinished, maybe as a monument to the fallen for Barcelona.
Spengler
Banned
Thats unfortunate. However one thing I think would be interesting is if Liberation like Theology emerges out of this.
After several nights of staying up too late, I have finished this TL.
Good job. I might blog about it.
Where will things go from here?
Good job. I might blog about it.
Where will things go from here?
person
Banned
we'll lose songs like this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Cw0ticloUE&list=PL03305A4AAFA91B0A&index=93&feature=plpp_video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Cw0ticloUE&list=PL03305A4AAFA91B0A&index=93&feature=plpp_video
Can't remeber if I ever posted it here, but this list (Opposition candidates to the National Assembly during the "New State" regime (1945-1973)) may help find some politicians for TTL Portugal, along with this one (Políticos Portugueses da I República (1910-1926)) for older right-wing politicians that might have a role in TTL politics.
Dr. Strangelove
Banned
I wish I could say NSCW is coming back soon, but I am just starting the big crunch towards finally finishing college and I certainly don't have much time to write as I'd like.
Anyway, I was pretty burned out in the last months, maybe this long hiatus could have been better for the TL in the long run.
Anyway, I was pretty burned out in the last months, maybe this long hiatus could have been better for the TL in the long run.
Having come late... this is a tremendous work - elaborately researched and focussing on some novel areas. I don't agree with everything in it, but I still read the whole thing.
A few notes on "recent" posts
Iran is a key line of communication. It was one of the major routes for Lend-Lease aid OTL. If the US is sending aid to the USSR, the Allies will insist on Iranian cooperation. Incidentally there is no way anyone will try to move anything via Afghanistan. It's much further, and northern Afghanistan and Kyrgyzstan are extremely rough.
Whereas there are railroads from Abadan to Baku.
???
East Indies oil fields are mainly in four places:
Brunei (north side of Borneo)
Balikpapan area (east side of Borneo)
Eastern Java
Sumatra
There is very little oil east of Java and Borneo.
Coal is mainly in three places:
East Borneo
South Borneo
Sumatra
There is almost no coal east of Borneo and Sumatra. In any case, I doubt that Japan imported coal from the Indies; they had plenty from Manchuria and even the Home Islands. (They mostly topped mining it later, because it was cheaper and cleaner to import it.)
Tin is mainly from Bangka and Belitung islands, which lie between Borneo and Sumatra.
Copper is mostly in New Guinea and Sumbawa, east of Java. So there's one.
Nickel is in the Moluccas, which is to the east.
So it makes little sense to say East Indies minerals are "[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]located mostly in the eastern half[/FONT]".
Taking Java would cut off about 2/3 of Japan's East Indies oil. Besides the Java oilfields occupied, Allied air and naval power cuts off supplies from Sumatra, and it becomes trivial to block exports from east Borneo.
It would also make trivial the occupation of the tin mines, and the Sumbawa copper mine. The New Guinea copper mine was opened in the 1960s and isn't relevant.
Except that Wallace isn't and never was a "Democratic politician". He was a Republican businessman when FDR tapped him for Secretary of Agriculture. Remember, FDR had to force his nomination in 1940.
OTOH, he had earned a lot of popularity with the party rank and file. He was the early favorite among the delegates for the VP nomination in 1944 OTL.
Byrd? NEUMA. He was a hard-core segregationist. He was touted as a candidate in 1932, as a successful governor, but endorsed FDR. By 1944 he'd been in the Senate 11 years and become an anti-New Dealer. He was later a protest candidate of sorts for the extreme segregationists.
The 89 votes he got at the convention were protest votes.
FDR was essentially unopposed for renomination.
The VP vote was contested, with FDR refusing to make an explicit public endorsement, except to say that if he was a delegate, he'd vote for Wallace - but pointedly not saying he wanted the delegates to vote for Wallace.
Wallace led on the first ballot with 429.5 votes out of 1,176, but the word had gone out for Truman, and he was second with 319.5. Truman led on the second ballot with 477.5, and then shifts gave him 1,031.
By 1944, he was old news, except...
After OTL's election, he became an enthusiastic "internationalist", actively supporting FDR's war policy, and working with Eleanor Roosevelt. That made him radioactive for most Republicans - especially conservatives.
Finally, he was dead by November.
Last point - Willkie was legally a resident of Indiana, having nominally moved back to his hometown of Elwood after retiring from business. But he'd lived and worked in in Akron, Ohio for 10 years (1919-1929) and then in New York City for 10 years (1929-1939). He spent a lot of time in NYC, and had an affair with Irita Van Doren, book editor of the Herald Tribune, in 1940. His public image was as a Wall Street lawyer/businessman.
IOW, he was firmly associated with New York City, and not very much with anywhere else. Dewey was even more firmly associated with NYC, having come to fame by fighting the New York gangs as District Attorney for Manhattan.
So a Dewey/Willkie ticket would be geographically unbalanced. Dewey would want someone from another region of the country.
(NOTE: current actual residence doesn't matter that much. In 1968, Republicans nominated Nixon (NY) and Agnew (MD), both from northeastern states, but Nixon was associated with California. The Bush-Cheney ticket of 2000 and 2004 was considered by some to be two Texans; but Cheney had been a U.S. Representative from Wyoming for 10 years.)
A few notes on "recent" posts
Iran is a key line of communication. It was one of the major routes for Lend-Lease aid OTL. If the US is sending aid to the USSR, the Allies will insist on Iranian cooperation. Incidentally there is no way anyone will try to move anything via Afghanistan. It's much further, and northern Afghanistan and Kyrgyzstan are extremely rough.
Whereas there are railroads from Abadan to Baku.
???
East Indies oil fields are mainly in four places:
Brunei (north side of Borneo)
Balikpapan area (east side of Borneo)
Eastern Java
Sumatra
There is very little oil east of Java and Borneo.
Coal is mainly in three places:
East Borneo
South Borneo
Sumatra
There is almost no coal east of Borneo and Sumatra. In any case, I doubt that Japan imported coal from the Indies; they had plenty from Manchuria and even the Home Islands. (They mostly topped mining it later, because it was cheaper and cleaner to import it.)
Tin is mainly from Bangka and Belitung islands, which lie between Borneo and Sumatra.
Copper is mostly in New Guinea and Sumbawa, east of Java. So there's one.
Nickel is in the Moluccas, which is to the east.
So it makes little sense to say East Indies minerals are "[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]located mostly in the eastern half[/FONT]".
Taking Java would cut off about 2/3 of Japan's East Indies oil. Besides the Java oilfields occupied, Allied air and naval power cuts off supplies from Sumatra, and it becomes trivial to block exports from east Borneo.
It would also make trivial the occupation of the tin mines, and the Sumbawa copper mine. The New Guinea copper mine was opened in the 1960s and isn't relevant.
Except that Wallace isn't and never was a "Democratic politician". He was a Republican businessman when FDR tapped him for Secretary of Agriculture. Remember, FDR had to force his nomination in 1940.
OTOH, he had earned a lot of popularity with the party rank and file. He was the early favorite among the delegates for the VP nomination in 1944 OTL.
OTL, a key group of party insiders thought he would be a fatal drag on the ticket, and pushed FDR hard to drop him. It seems unlikely they could accept him as Presidential nominee. OTOH, would they buck a sitting President?
Farley? NEUMA. He tried to run in 1940, and got nowhere. In 1944, he was nowhere.
Byrd? NEUMA. He was a hard-core segregationist. He was touted as a candidate in 1932, as a successful governor, but endorsed FDR. By 1944 he'd been in the Senate 11 years and become an anti-New Dealer. He was later a protest candidate of sorts for the extreme segregationists.
The 89 votes he got at the convention were protest votes.
There was no vote on "the ticket"; the two candidates are chosen on separate votes.
FDR was essentially unopposed for renomination.
The VP vote was contested, with FDR refusing to make an explicit public endorsement, except to say that if he was a delegate, he'd vote for Wallace - but pointedly not saying he wanted the delegates to vote for Wallace.
Wallace led on the first ballot with 429.5 votes out of 1,176, but the word had gone out for Truman, and he was second with 319.5. Truman led on the second ballot with 477.5, and then shifts gave him 1,031.
Willkie's 1940 nomination was a fluke. It was spawned by the recent publicity of his battles with New Deal utility policies. Willkie had no experience as a candidate, and he had been a Democrat until 1938. In fact he'd been a national convention delegate in 1924 and 1932.
By 1944, he was old news, except...
After OTL's election, he became an enthusiastic "internationalist", actively supporting FDR's war policy, and working with Eleanor Roosevelt. That made him radioactive for most Republicans - especially conservatives.
Finally, he was dead by November.
Last point - Willkie was legally a resident of Indiana, having nominally moved back to his hometown of Elwood after retiring from business. But he'd lived and worked in in Akron, Ohio for 10 years (1919-1929) and then in New York City for 10 years (1929-1939). He spent a lot of time in NYC, and had an affair with Irita Van Doren, book editor of the Herald Tribune, in 1940. His public image was as a Wall Street lawyer/businessman.
IOW, he was firmly associated with New York City, and not very much with anywhere else. Dewey was even more firmly associated with NYC, having come to fame by fighting the New York gangs as District Attorney for Manhattan.
So a Dewey/Willkie ticket would be geographically unbalanced. Dewey would want someone from another region of the country.
(NOTE: current actual residence doesn't matter that much. In 1968, Republicans nominated Nixon (NY) and Agnew (MD), both from northeastern states, but Nixon was associated with California. The Bush-Cheney ticket of 2000 and 2004 was considered by some to be two Texans; but Cheney had been a U.S. Representative from Wyoming for 10 years.)
I've just finished reading through this lovely TL. A stunning piece of work. I really enjoyed your writing style. A couple of entries gave me chills.
Particularly this one with Gila:
The report on Hitler is an excellent short story in and of itself.
There are a couple things that I find implausible though.
One is the extremely poor performance of the Italian military. As I understood it, the chief problem Italy had in OTL's WW2 was that the army and the economy were exhausted. Without the Spanish Civil War, Italy would be far stronger economically, the army would have had time and resources to devote to upgrading armaments more and the Italian people and soldiers wouldn't have been so deeply tired of war...
Also, no grand coalition for Britain during WW2 is going to cause big changes. Attlee (of the Labour party) was an excellent organizer, and did much work to organize the civil side of the war. I hesitate to say what that would change though, since I don't know the details of British politics in the period.
Also, I am not terribly convinced about the pro-Sovietism you are giving Wallace. Wallace always struck me as a rather capable man who, if he'd ever become president, would have done what most presidents do, and mostly worked to further American interests according to the best information he had to hand. Most American politicians went through a period of thinking the Soviet Union was much nicer than it really was. And like most American politicians, Wallace changed his mind after post war euphoria gave way to the cold war. Wallace however, ran a presidential campaign advocating good relations with the Russians, so his enemies had motive to paint him as a closet commie. So I think with President Wallace, the main change we'd be likely to see is that the cold war starts a little bit slower, but that the inevitable clash between Stalin's desires and American interests will force whoever is president down much the same path on much the same timetable.
Looking forward to reading more of your work! Good luck with the writing.
fasquardon
Particularly this one with Gila:
The report on Hitler is an excellent short story in and of itself.
There are a couple things that I find implausible though.
One is the extremely poor performance of the Italian military. As I understood it, the chief problem Italy had in OTL's WW2 was that the army and the economy were exhausted. Without the Spanish Civil War, Italy would be far stronger economically, the army would have had time and resources to devote to upgrading armaments more and the Italian people and soldiers wouldn't have been so deeply tired of war...
Also, no grand coalition for Britain during WW2 is going to cause big changes. Attlee (of the Labour party) was an excellent organizer, and did much work to organize the civil side of the war. I hesitate to say what that would change though, since I don't know the details of British politics in the period.
Also, I am not terribly convinced about the pro-Sovietism you are giving Wallace. Wallace always struck me as a rather capable man who, if he'd ever become president, would have done what most presidents do, and mostly worked to further American interests according to the best information he had to hand. Most American politicians went through a period of thinking the Soviet Union was much nicer than it really was. And like most American politicians, Wallace changed his mind after post war euphoria gave way to the cold war. Wallace however, ran a presidential campaign advocating good relations with the Russians, so his enemies had motive to paint him as a closet commie. So I think with President Wallace, the main change we'd be likely to see is that the cold war starts a little bit slower, but that the inevitable clash between Stalin's desires and American interests will force whoever is president down much the same path on much the same timetable.
Looking forward to reading more of your work! Good luck with the writing.
fasquardon
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