Orville_third
Banned
WI Brian Piccolo decides to go into baseball instead of football? (He was under consideration by the MLB...)
NFL what ifs
- Thread starter Dave
- Start date
Roth
I did a "what if" scenario with him on a site called Pigskinfever.com. I was on a website called www.joeroth12.com, and they had quotes from NFL executives on the site about Roth. The Seattle GM, John Thompson(the team who traded their #1 pick to Dallas that year so they could get Dorsett) said that, if Roth was in the Draft, he would have gotten more and more substatial overtures for that pick.
Here are some other "What if" possibilities:
1. What if the Chargers decided to take a flier on Randy Moss in 98 after realizing that Mr. Ryan "crybaby" Leaf is too immature to take at that spot?
2. What if the Patriots didn't get cheated by the officials in the 76 AFC Divisional Playoff?
3. What if the Buffalo Bills would have taken Jerry Rice with their second #1 pick in 1985? They made the right choice taking Bruce Smith #1 overall, but they could have had Jerry twice.
4. What if all the NFL teams would have listened to Mel Kiper in 1990 about Jeff George when he had him graded out of the first round? Kiper had him as the fourth or fifth-best QB in that draft.
I did a "what if" scenario with him on a site called Pigskinfever.com. I was on a website called www.joeroth12.com, and they had quotes from NFL executives on the site about Roth. The Seattle GM, John Thompson(the team who traded their #1 pick to Dallas that year so they could get Dorsett) said that, if Roth was in the Draft, he would have gotten more and more substatial overtures for that pick.
Here are some other "What if" possibilities:
1. What if the Chargers decided to take a flier on Randy Moss in 98 after realizing that Mr. Ryan "crybaby" Leaf is too immature to take at that spot?
2. What if the Patriots didn't get cheated by the officials in the 76 AFC Divisional Playoff?
3. What if the Buffalo Bills would have taken Jerry Rice with their second #1 pick in 1985? They made the right choice taking Bruce Smith #1 overall, but they could have had Jerry twice.
4. What if all the NFL teams would have listened to Mel Kiper in 1990 about Jeff George when he had him graded out of the first round? Kiper had him as the fourth or fifth-best QB in that draft.
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Ah, Barry Sanders. I was at Oklahoma State at the same time as Barry. His retirement was the first time I really realized I was getting older.
There we were in 1987, with Barry Sanders as Thurman Thomas's backup. <sniff, sniff> 1988 was a great year for OSU. If it wasn't for that one horrible 1st quarter against Nebraska, and the OU game's infamous personal foul, and the missed pass after that, OSU could have played for the championship.
Sigh, I'm fantasizing again about having Thurman Thomas and Barry Sanders as twin backs.
dilvish
Interesting thought. The Pats were up 21 - 10 heading into the fourth quarter. A terrible "roughing the passer" call against Ray Hamilton on Oakland quarterback Ken Stabler on a third down incomplete pass placed the ball deep in New England territory. This set up the Raiders game winning touchdown.
So lets butterfly away the roughing the passer penalty. On 4th and 10 Stabler faces a heavy rush and lofts an off balance pass to tight end Dave Casper, which bounces off his fingertips. The Patriots hold on for a 21 - 17 victory.
The only problem, however, is that New England would be facing the Steelers in the AFC Championship game in Pittsburgh (the Pats were a wild card team that year).
At this point you have to favor New England in that Pittsburgh, winning of the last two Super Bowls, was without running backs Franco Harris and Rocky Bleier (both sidelined by injuries). Plus New England had already beaten Pittsburgh earlier in the year.
This sets up a Super Bowl showdown with the Minnesota Vikings. Am I out of line to suggest that a veteran Vikings team, lead by Fran Tarkenton and Alan Page, might have been able to pull this off?
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What if Franco Harris and Rocky Bleier did not have to sit out the 1976 AFC Championship game against Oakland due to injuries?
I say the Steelers take this 21 - 13. The Raiders had a great offense that year but a defense that was above average at best (Oakland struggled mightily against New England in the first round of the playoffs the previous week- and giving up 164 yards on the ground in the process). With a pair of healthy running backs (and an all time great defense that gave up just 138 points all year), the Steelers keep the high scoring Raiders offense off the field and grind out the victory.
The Steelers move on to the Super Bowl and soundly defeat an aging Minnesota Vikings team 31 - 10.
I say the Steelers take this 21 - 13. The Raiders had a great offense that year but a defense that was above average at best (Oakland struggled mightily against New England in the first round of the playoffs the previous week- and giving up 164 yards on the ground in the process). With a pair of healthy running backs (and an all time great defense that gave up just 138 points all year), the Steelers keep the high scoring Raiders offense off the field and grind out the victory.
The Steelers move on to the Super Bowl and soundly defeat an aging Minnesota Vikings team 31 - 10.
76 Pats
In 1976, it should have been Pats-Rams in Pasadena. The Rams were jobbed by the officials in the NFC Championship against Minnesota when Ron Jessie scored a TD in the first quarter and the officials marked him down at the 1-inch line. Then, Chuck Knox calls a FG on fourth down that is blocked and returned for a TD by Bobby Bryant. If they get a TD there, or, at the very least, get stopped on 4th and 1, I think that they end up winning that game because they wouldn't have fallen into that 17-0 hole.
That would have set up a Ram-Patriot SB. The Rams technically had home field, but the Patriots were awfully good that year, and the Rams would have found some way to gag. Patriots 28, Rams 17.
Here is what that would mean:
1. The Raiders of the late-60's and 70's are remembered as the best team never to win a ring. Denver would have still dethroned them the next year, and then would have beaten New England in the championship game before losing to Dallas.
2. The Steelers, after still struggling in 77 because of holdouts and injuries, still bounce back in 78 and 79 to win the SB. However, they beat the Pats in the 78 AFC Championship, and they beat the Oilers for the 79 AFC Championship.
3. Chuck Fairbanks doesn't leave the Pats at the end of the 78 season, and they win another ring in 1980.
4. I am not sure, but there is a possibility that Chuck Knox stays on after 1977, the Rams have more faith in QB Pat Haden, and they don't make that stupid trade the next year for Namath.
Speaking of more NFL "what if's", these are inspired by the Missing Rings episode on the 81 Chargers:
1. What if the Chargers keep HOF DE Fred Dean in 1981 and sign him long-term instead of trading him to SF?
2. What if the Chargers do the same thing with WR John Jefferson that same year instead of trading him to Green Bay?
3. What if it was a normal cold day in Cincinnati instead of the freezer that they played in for the 81 AFC Championship?
In 1976, it should have been Pats-Rams in Pasadena. The Rams were jobbed by the officials in the NFC Championship against Minnesota when Ron Jessie scored a TD in the first quarter and the officials marked him down at the 1-inch line. Then, Chuck Knox calls a FG on fourth down that is blocked and returned for a TD by Bobby Bryant. If they get a TD there, or, at the very least, get stopped on 4th and 1, I think that they end up winning that game because they wouldn't have fallen into that 17-0 hole.
That would have set up a Ram-Patriot SB. The Rams technically had home field, but the Patriots were awfully good that year, and the Rams would have found some way to gag. Patriots 28, Rams 17.
Here is what that would mean:
1. The Raiders of the late-60's and 70's are remembered as the best team never to win a ring. Denver would have still dethroned them the next year, and then would have beaten New England in the championship game before losing to Dallas.
2. The Steelers, after still struggling in 77 because of holdouts and injuries, still bounce back in 78 and 79 to win the SB. However, they beat the Pats in the 78 AFC Championship, and they beat the Oilers for the 79 AFC Championship.
3. Chuck Fairbanks doesn't leave the Pats at the end of the 78 season, and they win another ring in 1980.
4. I am not sure, but there is a possibility that Chuck Knox stays on after 1977, the Rams have more faith in QB Pat Haden, and they don't make that stupid trade the next year for Namath.
Speaking of more NFL "what if's", these are inspired by the Missing Rings episode on the 81 Chargers:
1. What if the Chargers keep HOF DE Fred Dean in 1981 and sign him long-term instead of trading him to SF?
2. What if the Chargers do the same thing with WR John Jefferson that same year instead of trading him to Green Bay?
3. What if it was a normal cold day in Cincinnati instead of the freezer that they played in for the 81 AFC Championship?
76 Pats
Actually, the Chargers might have been better off without Jefferson (over the long term) in that JJ's numbers steadily declined following the trade. And Jefferson's replacement, Wes Chandler, while not quite the same player, put up similar if not like numbers (in terms of receptions, yards per catch and touchdowns). It was ultimately the defense which did the "Air Coryell" era Chargers in. Which leads to my next point...
These two kind of go "hand in hand". Would the presence of Fred Dean had been enough to put the Chargers over the top in 1981 (at least from a defensive standpoint)?
Best case scenario: The weather for the 81 AFC Championship game is a bit more "temperate" with the end result being a closer and more tightly contested game. Without the 59 below wind chill factor and tundra-like field, Dan Fouts and company have more room to work on offense. As a result, the game is tied 20 a piece late in the fourth quarter when Dean, rushing in from defensive end on a key third and long, strips the ball from Bengals quarterback Ken Anderson. "Big Hands" Louie Kelcher pounces on it. This sets up the game winning field goal for the Chargers: 23 to 20.
As for the eventually Super Bowl showdown with the Joe Montana led 49ers? Well, the Chargers might have had their hands full (even with Dean on defense) in that San Francisco, IMHO, might have been the better team.
Actually, the Chargers might have been better off without Jefferson (over the long term) in that JJ's numbers steadily declined following the trade. And Jefferson's replacement, Wes Chandler, while not quite the same player, put up similar if not like numbers (in terms of receptions, yards per catch and touchdowns). It was ultimately the defense which did the "Air Coryell" era Chargers in. Which leads to my next point...
These two kind of go "hand in hand". Would the presence of Fred Dean had been enough to put the Chargers over the top in 1981 (at least from a defensive standpoint)?
Best case scenario: The weather for the 81 AFC Championship game is a bit more "temperate" with the end result being a closer and more tightly contested game. Without the 59 below wind chill factor and tundra-like field, Dan Fouts and company have more room to work on offense. As a result, the game is tied 20 a piece late in the fourth quarter when Dean, rushing in from defensive end on a key third and long, strips the ball from Bengals quarterback Ken Anderson. "Big Hands" Louie Kelcher pounces on it. This sets up the game winning field goal for the Chargers: 23 to 20.
As for the eventually Super Bowl showdown with the Joe Montana led 49ers? Well, the Chargers might have had their hands full (even with Dean on defense) in that San Francisco, IMHO, might have been the better team.
Jack Tatum
Tatum steps in front of Steelers running back Frenchy Fuqua and intercepts the pass in question, butterflying away the controversial "immaculate reception". Game over. Raiders in the 1972 AFC Championship game.
The only problem, however, is that Tatum and company would have won themselves a date with the undefeated Dolphins (led by Csonka, Griese, Morris, Kiick, Warfield, etc). This, IMHO, only would have delayed their demise in that Miami, in all likelihood, simply had the better all around team.
In terms of overall impact, Tatum's interception might have taken off some of the edge of the Steelers - Raiders rivaly at the time but probably would not have made a significant impact on NFL history. For example, I would still favor the Dolphins to win the Super Bown in 73 and the Steelers the same in 74 and 75.
Tatum steps in front of Steelers running back Frenchy Fuqua and intercepts the pass in question, butterflying away the controversial "immaculate reception". Game over. Raiders in the 1972 AFC Championship game.
The only problem, however, is that Tatum and company would have won themselves a date with the undefeated Dolphins (led by Csonka, Griese, Morris, Kiick, Warfield, etc). This, IMHO, only would have delayed their demise in that Miami, in all likelihood, simply had the better all around team.
In terms of overall impact, Tatum's interception might have taken off some of the edge of the Steelers - Raiders rivaly at the time but probably would not have made a significant impact on NFL history. For example, I would still favor the Dolphins to win the Super Bown in 73 and the Steelers the same in 74 and 75.
Dean
If Dean didn't go to SF, the Niners may not have went to the SB. Dean really supercharged their pass rush, and it helped them over the top. If SD kept Dean, you might have had a SD-Dallas Super Bowl, with the Chargers winning. John Jefferson(in this alternate reality, he isn't traded) is the SB MVP after catching 12 passes for 158 yards, including the game winner from Dan Fouts with 42 seconds left.
If Dean didn't go to SF, the Niners may not have went to the SB. Dean really supercharged their pass rush, and it helped them over the top. If SD kept Dean, you might have had a SD-Dallas Super Bowl, with the Chargers winning. John Jefferson(in this alternate reality, he isn't traded) is the SB MVP after catching 12 passes for 158 yards, including the game winner from Dan Fouts with 42 seconds left.
Dean
OK. I get the point. But let's take this butterfly one step further...
The 49ers continue to be hindered without Dean's presence on defense throughout the decade, particularly 1984 (when, in OTL, they went 15-1 on their way to their second Super Bowl victory of the decade). We'll have them go 12-4 instead while displaying some vulnerabilities on pass defense as a result of Dean missing at DE. This does not come to hurt SF until the first round of the NFC playoffs (against the NY Giants) when the 49ers are unable to overcome Joe Montana's three interceptions. Giants quarterback Phil Simms, without Dean breathing down his neck, leads two fourth quarter drives on the way to a 24-21 victory.
In the NFC Championship again the Bears, however, the Giants are stymied by the "46" defense. We'll have Chicago take it 16-3, which sets up a Super Bowl showdown with Dan Marinos' Miami Dolphins.
The Bears-Dolphins Super Bowl pretty much plays out the same manner as the regular season contest between the two a year later: The Bears are just a step slow in getting to Marino, who has a huge day in throwing for over 300 yards and 3 TD's in a 35-21 victory.
Joe Montana, on the other hand, ends up placed in the same category as Fran Tarkenton and Jim Kelly: very good quarterbacks on very good teams that could not quite manage to win the big one.
OK. I get the point. But let's take this butterfly one step further...
The 49ers continue to be hindered without Dean's presence on defense throughout the decade, particularly 1984 (when, in OTL, they went 15-1 on their way to their second Super Bowl victory of the decade). We'll have them go 12-4 instead while displaying some vulnerabilities on pass defense as a result of Dean missing at DE. This does not come to hurt SF until the first round of the NFC playoffs (against the NY Giants) when the 49ers are unable to overcome Joe Montana's three interceptions. Giants quarterback Phil Simms, without Dean breathing down his neck, leads two fourth quarter drives on the way to a 24-21 victory.
In the NFC Championship again the Bears, however, the Giants are stymied by the "46" defense. We'll have Chicago take it 16-3, which sets up a Super Bowl showdown with Dan Marinos' Miami Dolphins.
The Bears-Dolphins Super Bowl pretty much plays out the same manner as the regular season contest between the two a year later: The Bears are just a step slow in getting to Marino, who has a huge day in throwing for over 300 yards and 3 TD's in a 35-21 victory.
Joe Montana, on the other hand, ends up placed in the same category as Fran Tarkenton and Jim Kelly: very good quarterbacks on very good teams that could not quite manage to win the big one.
1984
That is good, but here is a thought about 1984: The Broncos got upset by the Steelers in the AFC Playoffs because Elway hurt his groin and because of some questionable play calls by Dan Reeves. If they win that game, I think that they would have beaten Miami in the AFC Championship. They matched up better with the Dolphins then the Steelers did. Then, Chicago beats Denver in SB XIX(They already beat them 27-0 that year and matched up well with them).
Here are some other "what ifs"
1. What if Joe Paterno would have taken the Steeler HC job in 1969? He was their first choice, not Noll.
2. What if John Kasay doesn't put the kickoff out of bounds with less than a minute remaining in the fourth quarter of SB 37 against New England with the game tied, putting the Pats at the 40?
3. What if Mike Renfro's TD would have stood up at the end of the third quarter of the 79 AFC Championship game against the Steelers, and it would have been 17-17 going into the fourth quarter?
That is good, but here is a thought about 1984: The Broncos got upset by the Steelers in the AFC Playoffs because Elway hurt his groin and because of some questionable play calls by Dan Reeves. If they win that game, I think that they would have beaten Miami in the AFC Championship. They matched up better with the Dolphins then the Steelers did. Then, Chicago beats Denver in SB XIX(They already beat them 27-0 that year and matched up well with them).
Here are some other "what ifs"
1. What if Joe Paterno would have taken the Steeler HC job in 1969? He was their first choice, not Noll.
2. What if John Kasay doesn't put the kickoff out of bounds with less than a minute remaining in the fourth quarter of SB 37 against New England with the game tied, putting the Pats at the 40?
3. What if Mike Renfro's TD would have stood up at the end of the third quarter of the 79 AFC Championship game against the Steelers, and it would have been 17-17 going into the fourth quarter?
pacific_knight
Banned
No
Fred Dean wasn't a big part of the 49er success in '84. He sat out most of the season in a contract dispute and only tallied three sacks.
The 49ers were way better than Miami that year. It wasn't even close, in truth. Even w/o Dean they win that game and the preceeding playoffs without too much trouble.
Fred Dean wasn't a big part of the 49er success in '84. He sat out most of the season in a contract dispute and only tallied three sacks.
The 49ers were way better than Miami that year. It wasn't even close, in truth. Even w/o Dean they win that game and the preceeding playoffs without too much trouble.
What if in the 98 NFC Wild Card Game Green Bay pulls out the victory when Jerry Rice's fumble is recovered by LeRoy Butler.
Green Bay goes on to Beat Atlanta the following week, then to their Rivals the Vikings in the NFC Championship game.
this has some interesting changes, First Green Bay has a chance to go to their 3rd SB in a row. Second, Hearst doesn't break his leg and Young doesn't get hurt, Both are able to play/better the following year and SF has a better record. Third if GB goes to the SB Reggie White retires after the game and stays retired.
quite a few others but i'm tried and can't think right now
Green Bay goes on to Beat Atlanta the following week, then to their Rivals the Vikings in the NFC Championship game.
this has some interesting changes, First Green Bay has a chance to go to their 3rd SB in a row. Second, Hearst doesn't break his leg and Young doesn't get hurt, Both are able to play/better the following year and SF has a better record. Third if GB goes to the SB Reggie White retires after the game and stays retired.
quite a few others but i'm tried and can't think right now
79 AFC Championship Game
Let's say that the NFL instituted instant replay at the start of the 1979 season. Mike Renfo's juggling catch is initially ruled incomplete. So Oilers coach "Bum" Phillips, wisely, tosses the red flag onto the field.
After an unexpected lengthy period of time, the referee trots onto the field and announced "After reviewing the play, the receiver maintained possession while keeping both toes down. Touchdown."
Three Rivers stadium erupts in a cascade of boos. Chuck Noll throws up his hands in disgust. Jack Lambert goes nuts on the sidelines. Terry Bradshaw shrugs his shoulders and says "Aw-shucks".
But will the reversal of the call ultimately alter the outcome of the game? I am convinced the game would have ended in a score of 27-17 as opposed to 27-13. Yeah, it might have fired up the Oilers a bit but it would have fired up the Steelers even more, particularly on defense. And when anaylizing the Oilers performance on defense that day, they did not prove themselves capable of stopping the Steelers offense, which, IMHO, ultimately determined the outcome of the game.
Let's say that the NFL instituted instant replay at the start of the 1979 season. Mike Renfo's juggling catch is initially ruled incomplete. So Oilers coach "Bum" Phillips, wisely, tosses the red flag onto the field.
After an unexpected lengthy period of time, the referee trots onto the field and announced "After reviewing the play, the receiver maintained possession while keeping both toes down. Touchdown."
Three Rivers stadium erupts in a cascade of boos. Chuck Noll throws up his hands in disgust. Jack Lambert goes nuts on the sidelines. Terry Bradshaw shrugs his shoulders and says "Aw-shucks".
But will the reversal of the call ultimately alter the outcome of the game? I am convinced the game would have ended in a score of 27-17 as opposed to 27-13. Yeah, it might have fired up the Oilers a bit but it would have fired up the Steelers even more, particularly on defense. And when anaylizing the Oilers performance on defense that day, they did not prove themselves capable of stopping the Steelers offense, which, IMHO, ultimately determined the outcome of the game.
Modell
That would have been good. The league should have made Modell, who was a lousy businessman, sell the Browns to someone who would keep them in Cleveland. That move was an outrage. However, I think that they would have gotten a team eventually.
Here is another Baltimore NFL WI: What if Carroll Rosenbloom would have been allowed to move the Colts to Tampa in 1972?
He tried to because he was having stadium issues, but Pete Rozelle wouldn't let him, and Irsay ended up getting the Colts in a franchise swap.
That would have been good. The league should have made Modell, who was a lousy businessman, sell the Browns to someone who would keep them in Cleveland. That move was an outrage. However, I think that they would have gotten a team eventually.
Here is another Baltimore NFL WI: What if Carroll Rosenbloom would have been allowed to move the Colts to Tampa in 1972?
He tried to because he was having stadium issues, but Pete Rozelle wouldn't let him, and Irsay ended up getting the Colts in a franchise swap.
79 AFC Championship
I don't know about that. The Oilers weren't playing that bad in this game. The Steelers only were up 17-10 because Mike Renfro fumbled the ball at the end of the first half when they were driving, and the Steelers went down and scored a TD.
Also, I am not sure that Renfro was bobbling the ball. I have this game on DVD, and I thought that it should have been a TD. If it would have been tied going into the fourth quarter, Houston would have had a great shot to win. You may have seen it go into OT.
I don't know about that. The Oilers weren't playing that bad in this game. The Steelers only were up 17-10 because Mike Renfro fumbled the ball at the end of the first half when they were driving, and the Steelers went down and scored a TD.
Also, I am not sure that Renfro was bobbling the ball. I have this game on DVD, and I thought that it should have been a TD. If it would have been tied going into the fourth quarter, Houston would have had a great shot to win. You may have seen it go into OT.
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What if Ernie Davis didn't die? Jim Brown and Ernie Davis in the same backfield. I shudder to think what would happen.