RousseauX
Donor
Well, there are some good mineral sources there like gold.
Yeah, good luck with extracting any of this with pre-19th century technology
Well, there are some good mineral sources there like gold.
Works in the American West in the 19th century because the Indians were not an actual great military threat.Siberia has gold, you know that? One discovery can lead to a gold rush. And plus, if Mongolia is barren how are the Mongols able to find good horse pasture? The region can be like American cowboys raising cattle- there just needs to be settlers.
Yeah, good luck with extracting any of this with pre-19th century technology
If Manchuria is good then would China go there? And then to Siberia?
Does anyone know some good maps for a bigger China?
If you go on Chinese wikipedia for the Tang dynasty, Yuan dynasty, Han dynasty etc. (just go to the English wikipedia entry and then change the language in the sidebar for 中文), some of the maps there show a pretty... expansive realm for these dynasties.
It's kind of ridiculous. A map for the Qing Dynasty shows the Empire in control of Afghanistan and parts of Persia.
If you go on Chinese wikipedia for the Tang dynasty, Yuan dynasty, Han dynasty etc. (just go to the English wikipedia entry and then change the language in the sidebar for 中文), some of the maps there show a pretty... expansive realm for these dynasties.
It's kind of ridiculous. A map for the Qing Dynasty shows the Empire in control of Afghanistan and parts of Persia.
Not only would it have been virtually impossible for the Chinese to completely adopt the nomadic way of life for various reasons, attempting to widely utilize gunpowder would also not have made a significant difference in the long run, as the Jurchens, Mongols, and Manchus all adopted them IOTL when confronting China militarily after either learning techniques from the Chinese, or capturing them directly in battle.
If you can make the Ming use gunpowder, and have the Mongolian tribes actually be integrated into Ming governance, I'd argue that Ming expansion will be towards the Tarim Basin like their Han/Tang predecessors. Siberia is just so much empty land from the Ming point of view, and expansion in Southeast Asia is too much pain for too little reward.
On the other hand, the Russians were able to adopt to fight nomads. I'm not sure why it would be impossible for a Chiense dynasty, although I agree it would be tougher for the Ming. And gunpowder isn't something you can just pick up; even if nomads adopt it and use it(as they did in OTL) they will be less effective with it (as they were OTL).
Those maps are the ones that are used in China, and as usual there are those who are unwilling to admit the reality and say that those maps are exaggerated.
. . .
Tang's total area at its peak is not that much smaller compared to the Qing's era.
On the other hand, the Russians were able to adopt to fight nomads. I'm not sure why it would be impossible for a Chinese dynasty, although I agree it would be tougher for the Ming. And gunpowder isn't something you can just pick up; even if nomads adopt it and use it(as they did in OTL) they will be less effective with it (as they were OTL).
The Ming did use gunpowder. The problem was that carrying cannons into Mongolia is not a panacea that makes your armies invincible, and in fact they can slow down your advance and bog down supply lines.
Exactly, after all the Chinese was the one who invented it in the first place.
Yuan ChongHuan from the Ming dynasty kicked Nurhaci and Hong Taiji's asses hard.
-Wikipedia quotes-
Does anyone know any alternate history maps of a bigger China? I am still waiting for those.
Also, would China be able to conquer Tibet since the region isn't so populated?
I'm sure some people will disagree, but if by 'conquer Tibet' you mean like a systematic reduction of every single Tibetan fortress, then the cost/logistics involved would be too much to bother with. Much better to just send an expeditionary force to Lhasa for the Lamas to 'acknowledge' Chinese sovereignty and have that be the end of it.
Regarding to Manchuria, I checked at 1500 AD map, and there were barely any major nomadic tribes existing there, so China could probably slip in and take those. I also found in that map so small, Southeast Asian countries bordering China that the country can take.
The map is here: http://www.worldhistorymaps.info/images/East-Hem_1500ad.jpg
But what if the Ming Dynasty decided to use gunpowder more? And what if the Ming Dynasty had an expansionist policy? Also, what if the Ming forced the Mongol tribes to rely on them through trade? Something the Romans did.
Regarding to Manchuria, I checked at 1500 AD map, and there were barely any major nomadic tribes existing there, so China could probably slip in and take those. I also found in that map so small, Southeast Asian countries bordering China that the country can take.
The map is here: http://www.worldhistorymaps.info/images/East-Hem_1500ad.jpg
Yes, but regarding the English Wikipedia, the Qing directly ruled most of the area depicted for over two centuries, while the Tang only managed to hold most of Central Asia (~50 years) and Manchuria (~30 years) for several decades, including the fact that its control over the Eastern Göktürks often included granting local rulers various degrees of autonomy. The Tang was also severely weakened by several major rebellions, while the Göktürks and Tibetans took advantage of the chaos to invade China Proper. Even in the Chinese Wikipedia, the first map outlines Tibet and most of Manchuria (although Liaodong might not have remained under direct control for long), indicating that they continued to remain as tributaries, while significant areas of Central Asia are shaded in a lighter orange, and former Goguryeo possessions (which were larger than depicted) are striped, indicating that they did not remain under direct control for long. In addition, dates are provided for each frontier region, suggesting that rule over them was generally tenuous.
As a result, while the Tang's greatest extent might have approached that of the Qing, the two dynasties represent very different scenarios.
I think we're in agreement here, then. I didn't say that it would have been impossible for China to temporarily occupy nomadic possessions after consolidating their technological advantages, but attempting to invest expenditures into a significant amount of gunpowder weapons would have eventually drained the treasury in the short term. In addition, attempting to take most of Central Asia and/or Manchuria would have eventually led to significant logistical issues over the long run, as neither area (apart from Liaodong) would have been particularly conducive to widespread settlement at the time, while nomads operating from remote regions would have also continued to strain Chinese resources.
While Russia did manage to rapidly expand to the Pacific Ocean within 50 years or so, the Siberian tribes were also relatively isolated, leaving them with little battle experience. It was also not until the late 19th-early 20th century that Russian control over what became the current -stans was firmly consolidated. In other words, China would have faced similar issues if it had attempted to expand further north under a native dynasty, which would have become worse once natural disasters begin to take their toll on the populace.
Yes, but historically, internal division within the Chinese court was often severe, and nomads often used the temporary indecision to regain the offensive. During the Song's war against the Jin, Yue Fei was also arrested (and possibly executed) for similar reasons, suggesting that Yuan Chonghuan's sudden demise was not necessarily an isolated scenario.
While Chinese infighting was not necessarily inevitable in similar scenarios, they would have continued to be major factors, given that the nomads often took advantage of internal Chinese weaknesses to assert their influence, and the collective problems would have been exacerbated as logistical issues gradually became more severe over time.