I think the problem with that is that even by the fall of Constantinople in the 1450s, most Greeks didn't consider themselves romans, did they?
Make the Roman Empire last to 2014
- Thread starter U.S David
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I think the problem with that is that even by the fall of Constantinople in the 1450s, most Greeks didn't consider themselves romans, did they?
Caesar Biden
Banned
But Eastern Rome *was* the actual Rome, with Ceasers and everything. Would it fit your parameters if they manage to hold Italy with Rome becoming the de jure capital while the de facto capital is Constantinople?
Its not that simple. Ever hear the phrase, "not even wrong," somewhat applies here.
Now, as far as logistics: There's no specific reason why those borders could not be maintained. However, it was an incredible strain on a pre-industrial pre-gunpowder state. And expanding beyond the historical borders would be exponentially more difficult. In fact, logistically speaking, Britain already was at the limits of what could be administered from Rome (or, even more extreme, Constantinople). It takes a surprising amount of time to get to the island from Italy.
Deleted member 67076
Rome undergoes several cycles of contraction and expansion while still keeping its Mediterranean core intact and its army relatively powerful. By modern day 2014, like China on the east, the Roman Empire has managed to retake all its territory in the days of Augustus.
Keeping all those borders non stop is impossible. But, losing and regaining them while Romanizing all invaders like China does in the east would allow for cycles of renewal to retake their former lands.
Im kinda upset you link up the Byzantines with those groups. They weren't a successor state; they were literally the Roman Empire that didn't get taken over. Its like saying if the US were to get invaded and lose everything east of the Rockies it would stop being the US.
They did. Hell, even during the Greek revolution there were still proposals to call themselves the Kingdom of Romania. However, the powers in the West all had a hardon for the Ancient Greeks and promoted a Hellenic identity and nationalism, instead of a Rhoman one.
Caesar Biden
Banned
^ In fact, they considered themselves as Romans for several centuries after this.
Not impossible but highly, highly, highly improbable. At least not without something like a Gotho-Roman Empire.
Huh, interesting. I'll admit, I'm not the best at Late Roman/Byzantine/Greek history.
Deleted member 67076
Or full scale Genocide of the Goths and displacement like many other ethnic groups. But that's hard.
Interestingly, IOTL the Gothic kingdom was on its course to being assimilated.
Huh. That's interesting--what would it have taken to get neo-'Byzantine' Greece created during the revolution? If they somehow end up with Constantinople in the future, effectively recreating the Eastern Roman Empire, and then that kingdom enters into a personal union (and perhaps more) with the Kingdom of Italy, would not that be a restored Roman Empire?
I mean, if China can be considered a continuous entity through the creation and overthrow of the Mongol dynasty, then surely a Rome whose people overthrow a foreign ruler (the Ottoman Empire) and reclaim the capital cities (Constantinople and Rome) would be a continuation of the First Rome?
Deleted member 67076
Don't know for sure, this area of history isn't my specialty. As for taking Constantinople, you're better off with the Orlov Revolt creating an independent Greek kingdom instead of the OTL Greek Revolution.
Nationalism still wasn't a thing in Europe as far as I know, so anyone who backs Greece would be less likely to press an identity based of Pre Roman Greece. (Also the Ottoman Empire was weaker at the time so expansion would be easier).
Who says Rome has to retain all of it's land for 2000 years? Perhaps Rome collaspes, but still retains some land in Italy instead of becoming the Papal States. Then Rome reunites Italy in the 1800's. Then something along the lines of the EU form, and most of Europe unites under one country, with it's leadership in Rome.
Dragos Cel Mare
Banned
Someone please get Basileus Giorgios or Snake Featherston or Elfwine or someone who knows how unworthy to live the Classical Roman Empire was before it became Byzantium, as well as the real merits of the 'barbarian' medieval states.
Deleted member 67076
What is Europe is like China even supposed to mean?
China reinvented itself and experience massive change many many times over the course of its history. Arguably Italian is closer to Latin than Mandarin is to Old Chinese to give an example.- Remove the devolution of the military equipment of the standard Roman legionary during the 3rd century and maintain the segmented armour and gladius etc
- maintaining a decent wage for legionaries-the wage late roman empire was much less than the earlier
- allow far less of the "barbarisation"- ie recruitment of barbarian troops and maintain more standing legions instead of.
- maintain the strict military highrachy and way of life instead of allowing it to soften through the late 2nd and 3rd centuries.
Start by having the western roman empire consolidated into one of a handful of areas possibly Britannia, Hispania, and/or north africa with the Mediterranean islands, or perhaps italy and parts of north africa. From there they are going to take surrounding territory and eventually expand control northern africa as a whole, hispannia, and brittania itself. The main nut to crack will be Gaul, because it seems to be the most wholly settled by barbarians by that point.
What is Europe is like China even supposed to mean?
Well, I wanted to mean that the geopolitical circumstances in Far East Asia usually favoured the continued existence of a unified entity like the Chinese Empire, while in Europe the trend after the Roman fall was just the opposite, favouring infinite divisions and creation of fifes.
China is not Europe, and China today is as different to the Qing Dynasty as modern day Italy is to the Roman Empire.