I have to agree with you here, he has far too high a rank for a foreigner. It would make it look like the US has no decent generals and has to go to Italy to get one. He would have to start off as a full col or a brigadier general at most. More likely a Lt Col. If he does an excellent job he could wind up with Grant's job at the end of the war. It would be a big uphill struggle because 1)He isn't American and 2) Grant is just that good.
Let Us Die To Make Men Free: Garibaldi's America
- Thread starter DirtyCommie
- Start date
I have to agree with you here, he has far too high a rank for a foreigner. It would make it look like the US has no decent generals and has to go to Italy to get one. He would have to start off as a full col or a brigadier general at most. More likely a Lt Col. If he does an excellent job he could wind up with Grant's job at the end of the war. It would be a big uphill struggle because 1)He isn't American and 2) Grant is just that good.
Naaa...the third war of independence and the conquest of Rome will happen as scheduled.
Because I love you, and everyone here, I will enlighten you. Garibaldi was offered a major general's commission IOTL, specifically at the Army of the Potomac (or Northeastern Virginia, whichever you prefer). Seriously, all you need to do is look it up.
^ What he said. As for the Fremont/Nathaniel Lyon thing, you know, I agree. Let's kick out Fremont and have Lyon in charge, yeah?
EDIT: Check the last update for an edit. Also, to those who say that Garibaldi being in command is ASB, well, either take it up with the mods or don't read! This is the story I want to write, and the man I want to write it about, in the situation that I think he could have been in IOTL. Again, if you disagree, then bug a mod or don't read this.
Thank you.
I'll have another update later today, guys!
TFSmith121
Banned
Okay, but from where?
Okay, but from where? There was a significant German-American and (more importantly) German emigre population in the US in 1861, which is why Sigel, Blenker, Osterhaus, et al got the attention they did.
Large scale Italian emigration to the US didn't really start until the 1870s; even in the 1870s census, the numbers were pretty small, especially in comparison to the German, Irish, etc. who did provide more than enough manpower for "ethnic" units in the 1861 and 1862 mobilizations.
Numbwers based on surname or on place of birth are both challenging (Heintzelman was born in Pennsylvania; Kautz was born in Germany, came to the US as an infant, and graduated from West Point; di Cesnola was born in Italy but came to the US in the 1850s, Ferrero in Spain, and Spinola was born in NY), but in (very) round numbers, the estimates I've seen for "ethnic" service in the US forces in the Civil War are 200,000+ German-Americans, 150,000+ Irish-Americans, and less than 10,000 men of identifiably "Italian" ancestry.
Seeing Garibaldi as a brigade/divisional commander with di Cesnola, Spinola, and Ferrero as his subordinate commanders would be, um, interesting...I expect he'd get stuck with D'Utassy and the 39th NY as well, which would probably not be a pleasant experience for all concerned.
I just don't really see Garibaldi as having the pull in the US emigrant community to justify a major general's commission...
Best,
Okay, but from where? There was a significant German-American and (more importantly) German emigre population in the US in 1861, which is why Sigel, Blenker, Osterhaus, et al got the attention they did.
Large scale Italian emigration to the US didn't really start until the 1870s; even in the 1870s census, the numbers were pretty small, especially in comparison to the German, Irish, etc. who did provide more than enough manpower for "ethnic" units in the 1861 and 1862 mobilizations.
Numbwers based on surname or on place of birth are both challenging (Heintzelman was born in Pennsylvania; Kautz was born in Germany, came to the US as an infant, and graduated from West Point; di Cesnola was born in Italy but came to the US in the 1850s, Ferrero in Spain, and Spinola was born in NY), but in (very) round numbers, the estimates I've seen for "ethnic" service in the US forces in the Civil War are 200,000+ German-Americans, 150,000+ Irish-Americans, and less than 10,000 men of identifiably "Italian" ancestry.
Seeing Garibaldi as a brigade/divisional commander with di Cesnola, Spinola, and Ferrero as his subordinate commanders would be, um, interesting...I expect he'd get stuck with D'Utassy and the 39th NY as well, which would probably not be a pleasant experience for all concerned.
I just don't really see Garibaldi as having the pull in the US emigrant community to justify a major general's commission...
Best,
TFSmith121
Banned
If you read Seward's letter (linkled above) you will see he
If you read Seward's letter (linked above) you will see Garibaldi was offered a "major general's commission in the army of the United States" which, given the intricacies of regular, volunteer, state/militia, and brevet commissions, could have meant he could have two stars, but as a brevet, with (perhaps) substantive rank as a brigadier general (USV). Substantive rank could be even lower; there were cases of men with multiple brevets as general officers and substantive ranks as field or even company officers.
Which puts him below everybody in terms of seniority who predates him as a BG (USV).
It is also worth noting (at the link) the offer was over the signature of Seward, who was secretary of state - not secretary of war.
Again, these sort of commissions were offered for real reasons; either political support in the Congress (James Wadsworth, for example) or the ability to rcruit (Sigel, obviously); they were not provided based on military record alone (CF Havelock being an obvious example).
How many men does Garibaldi bring in? There were many examples of men being offered a commission if they could recruit a regiment or a brigade, and if they could not, the offer being retracted...
Again, it is entertaining as hell, but it is not realistic.
And the OP did ask for our thoughts...
Best,
If you read Seward's letter (linked above) you will see Garibaldi was offered a "major general's commission in the army of the United States" which, given the intricacies of regular, volunteer, state/militia, and brevet commissions, could have meant he could have two stars, but as a brevet, with (perhaps) substantive rank as a brigadier general (USV). Substantive rank could be even lower; there were cases of men with multiple brevets as general officers and substantive ranks as field or even company officers.
Which puts him below everybody in terms of seniority who predates him as a BG (USV).
It is also worth noting (at the link) the offer was over the signature of Seward, who was secretary of state - not secretary of war.
Again, these sort of commissions were offered for real reasons; either political support in the Congress (James Wadsworth, for example) or the ability to rcruit (Sigel, obviously); they were not provided based on military record alone (CF Havelock being an obvious example).
How many men does Garibaldi bring in? There were many examples of men being offered a commission if they could recruit a regiment or a brigade, and if they could not, the offer being retracted...
Again, it is entertaining as hell, but it is not realistic.
And the OP did ask for our thoughts...
Best,
TFSmith121
Banned
Understood; my point is that if you actually read the
Understood; my point is that if you actually read the letter (linked above) it is very equivocal and, again, comes from Seward, not anyone in the actual chain of command.
I could see him showing up, being given a substantive colonel's rank in the USV as an ADC to Scott or whoever, and having even a brevet commission as a general officer being contingent on what he can do in terms of recruiting. Basically, he's Louis Blenker with a snazzier uniform...
Best,
Understood; my point is that if you actually read the letter (linked above) it is very equivocal and, again, comes from Seward, not anyone in the actual chain of command.
I could see him showing up, being given a substantive colonel's rank in the USV as an ADC to Scott or whoever, and having even a brevet commission as a general officer being contingent on what he can do in terms of recruiting. Basically, he's Louis Blenker with a snazzier uniform...
Best,
WOW, that is surprising! He must have had an even bigger rep than I thought.
Will Garibaldi bring over a retinue of American freethinkers and grateful freemen volunteers back with him to Europe once he's done emancipating?
Well, Lincoln was desperate.
So, my copy of Donald's "Lincoln" says Consul Canisius in Vienna initiated negotiations on his own - that's all. Seward may have decided, "Okay, I'll offer a general command but not that of a commanding general." But, remember that things can spiral, especially int he days before instant communication.
So, let's work through this.
If Garibaldi thinks he's getting a bigger command, he could have been really insistent for that reason. But, if in TTL he isn't, maybe that's because Seward's TTL letter includes different language. Perhaps there is an interpretation problem. Something causes Garibaldi to come whereas he didn't OTL.
What is it? Perhaps a better understanding of the position he would have. An aide to General Scott works well.
General Scott meets him for the first tiem, and they get along well. Garibaldi has good ideas, so does Scott. Remember at this point Lincoln really wanted someone to do *something*, anything! So, why not appoint Scott as commander "just to get us past this hurdle," and Garibaldi as the real force behind it. Then, Scott gets hurt and Garibaldi is suddenly the hero.
Or, he serves under some other general in this battle and the same battle where Johnston is killed sees a few others maimed. Again Garibaldi comes to save the day, and there is pressure on Lincoln to name him commander of that army.
There are a number of ways to work thisso that Garibaldi is the hero of the first campaign and therefore placed there after the fact. Lincoln, manewhile, chooses to stick with him because he won. And, as Lincoln would say, "What would the people think if I relieved the only general we have had who provides a clean victory for our side?"
You could probably have Garibaldi bring volunteers if you need. Or have Lincoln bring up the name of Baron von Steuben, though he admittedly was before the U.S. had all the West Pointers and such they did by 1861.
It's doable, you just have to work at it.
Edit: I just saw Lyon is spared only 9 days after the POD - given communication in 1861 I really don't like that broad of a butterfly, so admittedly a POD in June with the offer a little different, etc. is easier for me to swallow too in that case. Lyon could more easily make slightly different decisions as he would at least know about it, and thus might only get hurt but not killed. He might be a bit less daring if he knows 10,000 volunteers are coming and he could get some.
So, my copy of Donald's "Lincoln" says Consul Canisius in Vienna initiated negotiations on his own - that's all. Seward may have decided, "Okay, I'll offer a general command but not that of a commanding general." But, remember that things can spiral, especially int he days before instant communication.
So, let's work through this.
If Garibaldi thinks he's getting a bigger command, he could have been really insistent for that reason. But, if in TTL he isn't, maybe that's because Seward's TTL letter includes different language. Perhaps there is an interpretation problem. Something causes Garibaldi to come whereas he didn't OTL.
What is it? Perhaps a better understanding of the position he would have. An aide to General Scott works well.
General Scott meets him for the first tiem, and they get along well. Garibaldi has good ideas, so does Scott. Remember at this point Lincoln really wanted someone to do *something*, anything! So, why not appoint Scott as commander "just to get us past this hurdle," and Garibaldi as the real force behind it. Then, Scott gets hurt and Garibaldi is suddenly the hero.
Or, he serves under some other general in this battle and the same battle where Johnston is killed sees a few others maimed. Again Garibaldi comes to save the day, and there is pressure on Lincoln to name him commander of that army.
There are a number of ways to work thisso that Garibaldi is the hero of the first campaign and therefore placed there after the fact. Lincoln, manewhile, chooses to stick with him because he won. And, as Lincoln would say, "What would the people think if I relieved the only general we have had who provides a clean victory for our side?"
You could probably have Garibaldi bring volunteers if you need. Or have Lincoln bring up the name of Baron von Steuben, though he admittedly was before the U.S. had all the West Pointers and such they did by 1861.
It's doable, you just have to work at it.
Edit: I just saw Lyon is spared only 9 days after the POD - given communication in 1861 I really don't like that broad of a butterfly, so admittedly a POD in June with the offer a little different, etc. is easier for me to swallow too in that case. Lyon could more easily make slightly different decisions as he would at least know about it, and thus might only get hurt but not killed. He might be a bit less daring if he knows 10,000 volunteers are coming and he could get some.
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It is a very long shot, but if Garibaldi gets a major general commission and the command of the army of NV he would certainly be followed by a significant number of volunteers (maybe a few hundreds). Staying with a positive outlook and assuming that the war ends sooner than IOTL (which is not impossible at all) Garibaldi and his volunteers (among which there would certainly be Nino Bixio) would bring back to Italy by early 1864 a hands-on experience in the first modern war. Breaking up the clique of Piedmontese officers who dominate the Italian army (and are the king's cronies) would not be easy but there might be a possibility for the jeune ecole to make a case for a different approach to the war of 1866 and more attentions to the strategic suggestions of von Moltke. It might make up a very different 1866 and Garibaldi himself would be in a position to ask for amuch more significant rolethan just the commander of volunteers.
BTW, one of the reasons for Seward to write his letter to Garibaldi might be the popularity that the general enjoys in England (obviously not among the deep died tories).
BTW, one of the reasons for Seward to write his letter to Garibaldi might be the popularity that the general enjoys in England (obviously not among the deep died tories
).Garibaldi as a Union general, kicking the confederacy right where it hurts and generally being an awesome abolitionist republican revolutionary? Yeah, I think I'm going to enjoy this timeline.
True, but one of Lincoln's strengths was a willingness to promote talent. The war ends with the two major Union commands firmly under the control of General Drinks-A-Bit-Much and General I'm-Prone-To-Nervous-Breakdowns, largely because they could do the job. Plus, I think you can make a case that Seward (intelligent, talented, has a bit of Lincoln's ear, etc.) could do an end run around Simon Cameroon (incompetent, massively corrupt, none to bright, etc.) if need be. Especially for a war-hardened general who's commanded before, so it's not completely outside the realm of possibility, I think.
All in all, this has just enough of the tinge of possibility, and excellent research, that I'm sub-freaking-scribed. If only for the possibility, unheard of and delightfully subversive when one considers the tastes of these boards, that for once the good guys will have the snappier uniforms.
And, y'know, for the rest of the Civil War story.
TFSmith121
Banned
Promoting talent is one thing; turning over
Promoting talent is one thing; turning over command of the field army operating against the rebel capital and their largest army in the field is another...
I agree, it is a great subject for an AH, but there are just waaay to many people in the way between McDowell and "a potential sucessor" to have the immediate answer be a foreigner with no experience in the US military.
It is about as likely as Jeff Davis giving command of the ANV to Camille Polignac, and for the same reasons.
Best,
Promoting talent is one thing; turning over command of the field army operating against the rebel capital and their largest army in the field is another...
I agree, it is a great subject for an AH, but there are just waaay to many people in the way between McDowell and "a potential sucessor" to have the immediate answer be a foreigner with no experience in the US military.
It is about as likely as Jeff Davis giving command of the ANV to Camille Polignac, and for the same reasons.
Best,