In this country , it is good to kill an admiral from time to time

No but China hate the foreigners, it isn't because they are talking with the Entente that China trust the Entente. It just is common sense to reduce the numbers on enemy you need to fight. Do not forget that before the implosion of the realm, China consider itself the greatest empire of all time and that all kingdoms across the world were their tributaries.
True, but at the same time you could say that OTL Communist China thinks similarly yet they don't openly pick a fight with those who haven't wronged them.

Asides from maybe Bengal, none of the major powers outside of the UPNG have really angered China enough.
 
True, but at the same time you could say that OTL Communist China thinks similarly yet they don't openly pick a fight with those who haven't wronged them.

Asides from maybe Bengal, none of the major powers outside of the UPNG have really angered China enough.
Because many of thoses who wronged them in the past are nuclear armed powers or protected by said nuclear powers. While they are belligerent they are not suicidal.
In this case China has the industry and the economy and demography to compete with a good chunk of the world. There is no concept of M.A.D keeping everyone in check.
 
Because many of thoses who wronged them in the past are nuclear armed powers or protected by said nuclear powers. While they are belligerent they are not suicidal.
In this case China has the industry and the economy and demography to compete with a good chunk of the world. There is no concept of M.A.D keeping everyone in check.
True, but would China ITTL gain from pissing off major powers?

If it were to fight Bengal over, say, Tibet, they'd gain nothing.

The Entente's only real crime against China was giving Wu China weapons in the Great War.
 
California and UPNG: We know this was a calculated risk, but boy are we bad at math!
This joke was quite funny a few days ago, but now...well it far less funny.
For the record, it's not that the UNPG and its allies sucked at math, but the Chinese used converted merchant hulls as small carriers built in civilian shipyards which shouldn't be selling to the military.

I would like to know what China exactly promise the Entente because 12 carriers (with adequate escorts I suppose) have the potential to even alarm them. So while the English are "playing" against Russia. France have all the latitude to "think" about the future. Is a potential hostile fleet that powerful a good news or a bad one? I think some people in Paris and Pondicherry but also in Japan are really NOT happy right about now (of course, there is a lot of people not happy right now but France is supposed to be #1 and Japan is a close neighbor)
It has potential to alarm them once they're revealed, but as you will rapidly see, building warships in civilian shipyards implies some drawbacks.
Some of them may be familiar to those who are aware of the Imperial Japanese Navy in OTL.

I mean, Japan aside, no major Entente members are really close enough to threaten and/or be threatened by China's fleet. Not even France's colonies.
Pretty much.
And one mustn't forget that the carriers by themselves can't win a war. What matters are the aircrafts on those carriers (for the anti-fleet missions) and even if you manage to gain dominance in Japanese waters...well, there's still the minor detail of invading Japan. And TTL Japanese Army is not the fanatical and genocidal attack force which thinks a perverted form of bushido is the way forwards. It has evolved into a professional and dangerous force 'thanks' to the Great War.

12 carriers is an impressive fleet, but, for now at least and as I undertand it, it's an impressive fleet when it operates close to chinese coasts. Otherwise it soon becomes a very oil-lacking fleet. Unless I'm mistaken, China lacks the Entente (French) world-spanning web of naval bases. Even if the Chinese were to swallow Vietnam, the Philipines, Brunei and all of the APP islands scattered in the Pacific (which is quite a monstruously big if), the western coast of French North America would still be an incomfortably long way from their bases (and an even less comfortably short way from French supplies) and French India would still be protected by the Malay barrier. Such a situation may be concerning (after all, some French Pacific islands would be in the reach of the Chinese, and French Antipodea could turn a frontline zone at any time), but not alarming: the major industrial centers would still be safe and able to drown the Chinese under new weapons.

On a completely different point, I notice that California has basically, just as many OTL and TTL countries, prepared for the previous war. In such a situation, the wake-up is indeed usually brutal.
Indeed. The Chinese fleet is very much a reaction to the blockade of the UPNG and the 'never again' humiliation they couldn't sink their enemies and take what they were promised.
TTL China (much like OTL at that point) is very dependent on oil which it doesn't produce domestically, and does not have any foreign naval base.
Furthermore, they don't really have a naval tradition (unless you count some Admiral of the 'Treasure Fleets' centuries ago).
In some way, this had advantages: they don't have to fight against the conservatism most navies struggle with.
On the other hand...they can make other mistakes.


Also, will China actually invade Vietnam?

And if they fought Bengal for some reason, is there any chance France DOESN'T join?
The most important question is if the UPNG and the others will demand Vietnam declare war against China.
California has just been attacked.
By the rules of the mutual defence treaty binding them, an attack upon the Pacific Powers is an attack against all of them.

The thing is, why would China even want to fight France?

France didn't promise 2 juicy islands (one of which is completely Chinese in terms of population) and then keep them for themselves while millions of Chinese died.

France didn't try and stop Chuan China from ending the horrific Wu regime with sanctions.

France didn't try making an alliance meant only to counter China.
Exactly.
Mind you, I'm not going to say France and China are deeply in love, because it's not the case, but the Entente is not the subject of Chinese wrath.

And honestly, the Chinese Empress and her government are wise enough to know that when you declare war against a multinational alliance like they did, you wait for them to be defeated before even thinking about another war.
The majority of the Pacific Powers' Fleet is not at Taiwan, and the war is in its first day.
It's far too early to even say they have the advantage...
 
This joke was quite funny a few days ago, but now...well it far less funny.
OK true but in my defense I couldn't have possibly known what would happen to make this joke less funny (since we both know what it was).
For the record, it's not that the UNPG and its allies sucked at math, but the Chinese used converted merchant hulls as small carriers built in civilian shipyards which shouldn't be selling to the military.
True, but the UPNG and Californian intelligences royally screwed up with that. If England, who doesn't even hate China, is better at getting accurate naval information via espionage on China than China's actual enemies, then there's a problem.
It has potential to alarm them once they're revealed, but as you will rapidly see, building warships in civilian shipyards implies some drawbacks.
Some of them may be familiar to those who are aware of the Imperial Japanese Navy in OTL.
I mean, China doesn't really want anything from Japan territory wise, same with Bengal, so unless either of them get into a dispute with China I doubt those carriers will be used against them.
Pretty much.
And one mustn't forget that the carriers by themselves can't win a war. What matters are the aircrafts on those carriers (for the anti-fleet missions) and even if you manage to gain dominance in Japanese waters...well, there's still the minor detail of invading Japan. And TTL Japanese Army is not the fanatical and genocidal attack force which thinks a perverted form of bushido is the way forwards. It has evolved into a professional and dangerous force 'thanks' to the Great War.
And even in OTL, the US didn't want to invade Japan due to the hundreds of thousands of soldiers who would die.

Not to mention all those mountains. HOI4 has taught me that invading mountain lands suck.
The most important question is if the UPNG and the others will demand Vietnam declare war against China.
California has just been attacked.
By the rules of the mutual defence treaty binding them, an attack upon the Pacific Powers is an attack against all of them.
No way is Vietnam going to just go along and declare war on China. Even if they had perfect stability (which they are FAR from having), they have less than 1/10th of China's population and no doubt a fraction of its GDP per capita. Their military equipment is no doubt also far worse, never mind their worse military leadership.

They will no doubt try to weasel out of this agreement at all costs and I don't blame them.
Exactly.
Mind you, I'm not going to say France and China are deeply in love, because it's not the case, but the Entente is not the subject of Chinese wrath.

And honestly, the Chinese Empress and her government are wise enough to know that when you declare war against a multinational alliance like they did, you wait for them to be defeated before even thinking about another war.
The majority of the Pacific Powers' Fleet is not at Taiwan, and the war is in its first day.
It's far too early to even say they have the advantage...
As much as it pains me to admit, I doubt they'll successfully kick California from Taiwan due to all those built-in defenses and entrenched soldiers making any naval invasion next to impossible even with their massive amount of air support.
 
Harbours in flames (Taiwan, April 1 1923)


The Californian sailors were caught utterly by surprise by the attack of the Chinese torpedo-bombers. It shouldn’t have been so; many war games had suggested that as long as an aircraft could carry and launch one of the torpedoes lesser cruisers and small ships used to attack in squadrons, they represented a clear danger to any battle-fleet.

But no one had ever trained for this situation. From the Rear-Admirals commanding the two flotillas to the ordinary sailors, everyone had thought that if the Chinese fleet came, they would have a couple of hours of advance warning, and the threat would come from the Battleships waiting at Guangzhou, Shanghai, or wherever the warships were built those days.

They were wrong.

Keelung was the first to be targeted, though it was only by ten minutes. Forty Xia torpedo-bombers fell upon the Californian warships, while the twenty Tang bombers released their lethal cargo upon the imposing defences of the harbour, which were in their great majority unable to retaliate. At the same time, ten Sui strike fighters found and decimated the aviation of the Californian Air Force, which had not managed to put a single aircraft in the sky before the assault was confirmed in the most terrible manner possible.

The Cruiser Lion de Oro was struck by five torpedoes, and it was five too much. The ship rapidly sunk, and with it went down dozens of officers and hundreds more Californian sailors. Three other Light Cruisers and one Submarine were also targeted, with all but one Light Cruiser soon burning or suffering massive damage.

When the Chinese aerial assault wave ended, they left behind them a spectacle of utter devastation, to which a Destroyer’s destruction provided a bloody finale: the captain of the ship had decided to leave the harbour as fast as possible, recognising it as a truly inhospitable location, only to be ambushed by a Chinese Submarine mere minutes after sailing away.

The Chinese pilots had lost three of their own. The number of dead for the Californians, be they sailors or civilians, was certainly above one thousand, and climbing up hellishly fast.

But if Keelung was a Chinese triumph, things didn’t go as spectacularly well at Kaohsiung.

The General in charge there had a far more respectful view of the Chinese threat, and had maintained a rotation of air patrols which began at dawn. Ironically, the cost in terms of fuels and spare parts had not made him popular at all in the couple of months this doctrine was employed, and if the Chinese hadn’t attacked, it was likely the man would have been sent to a far less prestigious command for ignoring the wishes of his mercantile ‘masters’.

There were not enough P-02 strike fighters to do stop their Sui counterparts, never mind the Xia torpedo bombers or the bigger Tang aircraft. But they were able to give time to the rest of their fellow pilots on the ground. Time the men of the Californian Air Force didn’t waste.

By the time the first wave of Chinese aircraft left Kaohsiung, twelve aircraft in total had been lost, and four more would fall before they could return to their carriers. The losses of the Californian pilots were twice that in men, and many more strike fighters and bombers were burned hulks, but the aviation fields were intact, and most of the harbour defences were still more or less functioning. The flotilla of the Californian Navy, on the other hand, had received too many torpedoes to not be considered crippled. The sailors of the Isabella were desperately trying to keep it afloat, and six other ships were sunk or so damaged they would need an intact shipyard to be repaired.

But Air General Mayo had accomplished the most important thing he had to: Kaohsiung was still a functional harbour-fortress, and the Chinese Air Force didn’t return that day.

Unfortunately, the same couldn’t be said about Keelung.

The Chinese Admirals knew that they had won a great victory there, and didn’t hesitate in launching the second wave so they could transform it into a one-sided massacre.

The very numerous fires weren’t extinguished when the Sui strike fighters led the hundreds of Chinese planes back to the harbour of Taiwan, and their reappearance provoked a monumental panic on the battlefield.

Suddenly, a lot of sailors, remembering how lucky they had been to survive the first wave, fled as fast as their current location allowed.

Some brave sailors resisted, manning the last turrets which hadn’t been pulverised by the aerial bombardment, loading the guns of the ships not sunk, and the last planes which had avoided destruction soared to deny air supremacy to their foe.

The latter took less than twenty minutes to be swept from the sky. For the rest, it was like the end of times was coming, as the Chinese pilots tried to methodically ruin anything that could be a threat for the amphibious invasion coming behind them.

Indeed, knowing how difficult an assault coming across the Straits was, and how dangerous the mined and trapped beaches could be, the Chinese High Command had decided it would be far simpler to take the harbour of Keelung for their own use.

And on the first bloody day of the Second Great War in Asia, this phase of the operation went perfectly according to the plan, with only sixteen aircraft of all types destroyed or too damaged to fly again.

But as the transports approached Keelung, the failure at Kaohsiung meant there were many more fighters and bombers of the Californian Air Force left to defend the island.

The Californian Navy had perished and inflicted no damage whatsoever, but the Army and the Air Force were still potent forces.

And they were going to have the occasion to prove it within twenty-four hours...
 
It's better to have a healthy respect for your enemy than contempt, less chance to have a bad case of wake-up call.
So the Pacific is burning on the impulse of China, Russia have now the choice between attacking China with the Alliance or concentrating on its other enemies. Either way, France can for the moment stay outside the conflict and play the Vampire Strategy aka be the Big Bank with killer interests that play both sides and pray the conflict last as much as necessary to ruin both sides.
 
As much as I'm rooting for China, gotta respect that Californian general at Kaohsiung for choosing preparation and wariness over arrogance and being a cheapskate

So the Pacific is burning on the impulse of China, Russia have now the choice between attacking China with the Alliance or concentrating on its other enemies.
But what would Russia even gain from attacking China?

China's economy and military are both easily larger and more developed than Russia's.
 
But what would Russia even gain from attacking China?

China's economy and military are both easily larger and more developed than Russia's.
Attacking China when they are already fighting a coalition is the best moment to reduce the threat than China is becoming to Russia. By the way, why do you think China have a better economy and military than Russia? Aren't you just supposing that? Keep in mind too that China have been ravaged by a very long civil war, it is never a good thing for your economy nor your military.
 
Attacking China when they are already fighting a coalition is the best moment to reduce the threat than China is becoming to Russia. By the way, why do you think China have a better economy and military than Russia? Aren't you just supposing that? Keep in mind too that China have been ravaged by a very long civil war, it is never a good thing for your economy nor your military.
But Russia's eastern forces are weak (so it'd take a lot of time to move enough soldiers to even have a chance of succeeding), they'd be much further away from their economic/industrial centers than China, they risk losing Manchuria if they lose (at the very least), and other countries could use this as an opportunity to attack them.

And Russia has to spend a lot of money on occupying puppets, and it seems from what Antony has written that China is clearly more developed overall than Russia. They could also blockade Russia's east with their superior navy.

And Russia has no love for the UPNG and California.
 
Wrong logic here.
First, Western China have no infrastructure and 80% of the people live close the coast (aka Eastern China) with the majority of the armed forces there too obviously.
Second, the MASSIVE civil war make it that a lot of money was need to rebuild a very vast and destroyed country (a lot more than what Russia spent in Europe and for less return) on top of building a massive fleet. I have serious doubt on their treasury right now and how long they can last in this war. (I reread the chapter on China and Russia, I don't share your impressions, we don't even know what is the quality of the fleets and armies of China)
Third, Russia have made sure to connect his Empire by railroads and they aren't new to the zone, they know it very well, they fought there in the past. They probably prepare since before the naval conference for just this situation.
Fourth, China is already engage in a war with a coalition, they can't concentrate on just Russia or the APP will make them pay.
Five, Russia doesn't care about the APP but they are a good tool of diversion and allies of circumstances, the old "enemy of my enemy..."
Six, the enemy of Russia aren't in a hurry, in fact, they will probably let Russia go a few rounds against the Chinese (studying the tactics and techs) prepare themselves as much as they can and only then attack a Russia fully concentrate on China. By the way, except Hungary-Austria, all other European enemies of Russia have been weaken considerably during the last Great War. Hell, do they even trust each other enough to put a common front against Russia?
Seven, Russia believe in itself.

So yeah, if they lose they could lose some lands... only if China is able to beat everybody... they might also win and weaken China one way or another and right now is the best opportunity to try, before France and China continue building their friendship to the point of becoming allies.
 
Wrong logic here.
First, Western China have no infrastructure and 80% of the people live close the coast (aka Eastern China) with the majority of the armed forces there too obviously.
And since Western and Northern China have next to no infrastructure, an invading Russian army will have terrible logistics
Second, the MASSIVE civil war make it that a lot of money was need to rebuild a very vast and destroyed country (a lot more than what Russia spent in Europe and for less return) on top of building a massive fleet. I have serious doubt on their treasury right now and how long they can last in this war. (I reread the chapter on China and Russia, I don't share your impressions, we don't even know what is the quality of the fleets and armies of China)
But while the North is in economic (and literal) ruins, the South has been developing for over a century, and they did get the licenses to build Western equipment during the Great War.

And China isn't hated/feared by its trade partners nearly as much as Russia is, and it isn't spending money on things like occupying puppets or intervening in places like Serbia and Brazil.
Third, Russia have made sure to connect his Empire by railroads and they aren't new to the zone, they know it very well, they fought there in the past. They probably prepare since before the naval conference for just this situation.
I still doubt their Eastern infrastructure is good enough to properly maintain an army of MILLIONS of soldiers plus equipment and vehicles
Fourth, China is already engage in a war with a coalition, they can't concentrate on just Russia or the APP will make them pay.
But they don't need their navy (well not most of it) for Russia just like how they don't need millions of soldiers to fight in Taiwan.
Five, Russia doesn't care about the APP but they are a good tool of diversion and allies of circumstances, the old "enemy of my enemy..."
Still not worth millions of deaths to help them, even if indirectly.
Six, the enemy of Russia aren't in a hurry, in fact, they will probably let Russia go a few rounds against the Chinese (studying the tactics and techs) prepare themselves as much as they can and only then attack a Russia fully concentrate on China. By the way, except Hungary-Austria, all other European enemies of Russia have been weaken considerably during the last Great War. Hell, do they even trust each other enough to put a common front against Russia?
True
Seven, Russia believe in itself.

So yeah, if they lose they could lose some lands... only if China is able to beat everybody... they might also win and weaken China one way or another and right now is the best opportunity to try, before France and China continue building their friendship to the point of becoming allies.
Still a low to medium reward with a very, very, VERY high risk
 
You know, I've been wondering, in this story so far, has there been any one individual who stood out as particularly evil in the story (basically what TV Tropes would call a Complete Monster)?

I mean, there's that Ottoman Sultan during the Damocles War who slaughtered thousands of both civilians and foreign diplomats, but he doesn't seem heinous enough given how bloody this timeline's conflicts have been.

There could also be Theodore Roosevelt and his atrocities in Madagascar, but he's still alive so he can't be considered yet.
 
You know, I've been wondering, in this story so far, has there been any one individual who stood out as particularly evil in the story (basically what TV Tropes would call a Complete Monster)?

I mean, there's that Ottoman Sultan during the Damocles War who slaughtered thousands of both civilians and foreign diplomats, but he doesn't seem heinous enough given how bloody this timeline's conflicts have been.

There could also be Theodore Roosevelt and his atrocities in Madagascar, but he's still alive so he can't be considered yet.

I think that Roosevelt being worst (evil) leade ITTL. South Africa is basically more realistic Draka.
 
Lords of the Skies (Battle for Taiwan April 1923)


For all its underestimation of the Chinese armed forces, the Californian High Command had never doubted for a single second that their enemy seriously intended to conquer Taiwan. Many carriers had been built and hidden from view in civilian shipyards, but there was no possibility of disguising the hundreds of large amphibious crafts.

The quantities of fuel, the movement of hundreds of thousands of regulars, the stockpiles of food and medicine, and of course simple things like uniforms and boots were to be transported to the pre-invasion barracks.

The Californian Generals had known an amphibious invasion was coming. This was why all beaches which could be used for a major or a minor landing were heavily fortified.

But no one had really thought the Chinese could launch a successful attack on Day 1 and contest the aerial supremacy of the Californian Air Forces over Taiwan. Nor it had been truly thought likely the amphibious onslaught would choose to land at Keelung. The batteries protecting the harbour were simply too strong, the killing ground far too efficient against any enemy which came from the sea.

Now all the pre-war assumptions were proven wrong. As Air General Mayo informed his superior, Marshal Valdes, the Californian planes were going to do their best on April 2 and all the days after that, but they were going to be massively outnumbered in the sky.

Some Chinese aircraft were unavoidably going to get through.

To his credit, Valdes didn’t hesitate and moved immediately his closest division of twenty-five thousand men to defend Keelung, but time was not on his side.

As dawn came, the favourable weather conditions allowed the Chinese Navy to launch a new overwhelming aerial attack upon Taiwan.

The Californian defence was this time not taken by surprise. Desperation being the mother of innovation, the headquarters of the defenders had finally decided to listen to one of their own engineers which had been a student of honour in the halls of Paris’ most prestigious Academy of Science and Technology. His neo-radar creations were incredibly crude, but the Californians had some alert warning given to them.

As the potential harbour attack against Kaohsiung had been cancelled, the Californian Air Force was able to concentrate its Libertad strike fighters on the northern front.

But the same applied for the Chinese fighters.

On the early morning of April 2 1923, over one hundred Estrella strike fighters fought the next best thing as two hundred Chinese Sui pilots.

It was a massacre. In mere minutes, the men of the Alliance of Pacific Powers discovered the Sui was surpassing their machines in a dogfight. As it was not enough, the average Chinese pilot had trained sometimes two or three times more than his enemy of the day did.

Over half of the Californian Air Force went down during that day, but by opposing a fierce resistance, they gave the diversion their bombers’ comrades needed to rush towards the Chinese fleet.

Naturally, the Chinese Admirals had not left their precious capital warships undefended, but since they did not have the ‘neo-radar’ the Californians had just activated, their reaction time was much diminished.

And while many bombers were shot down and the flak guns saturated the skies with lethal ammunition, some Californian pilots managed to manoeuvre into attack position.

The carrier Sima Yi, built in a civilian shipyard and essentially a cargo which had been transformed hastily into a warship, received three torpedoes and five bombs. As two planes were refuelling on the deck, and most of the basic safety measures had been cast aside following the triumph of the day before, the result was beyond horrific.

The Sima Yi exploded. There was no time for the sailors of Empress Ren to stop the catastrophe. The unfortunate carrier blew up with the strength of a volcano, and such was the shockwave that it took with it one of its escort destroyers with it in death.

The Californian bomber crews would of course go overboard with their victory claims and affirm they had destroyed three carriers, one battleship, four cruisers, and a dozen destroyers. In reality, the Chinese had lost one carrier, one destroyer, and three other ships were damaged, but easily repairable.

Some of the Californian High Command officers were eager to believe the version of their own pilots, but Air General Mayo, by now elevated to command anything able to fly on Taiwan, was far more pessimistic. As he justly remarked, even if those claims were true, they had destroyed less than a tenth of the enormous armada sailing towards them, and for this they had paid an atrocious price.

Less than forty percent of what the Californian Air Force had in March remained to contest the skies to the Chinese veteran aces.

The Californian Navy in the vicinity of Taiwan had effectively perished without sinking a single ship of the Celestial Empire. The waters of the straits were the lair of countless enemy submarines, making by its very existence a reinforcement effort perilous.

And of course, behind this fleet was sure to come the real threat: the thousands of amphibious crafts and requisitioned cargos the reunified Empire of China had prepared for this ‘historic’ moment.

April 2 had been bad. April 3 promised to be worse.

And while the shock of the aerial and naval losses hadn’t the time to dissipate, the Californian officers’ training reasserted itself.

The mutual defence articles of the Alliance of Pacific Powers had been activated an ocean away.

And one by one, the declarations of war sounded like a thousand cannons.

The United Provinces of New Granada, for all the scandals and the pro-peace promises it has embraced, was the first to declare war to the Chinese Empire.
 
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