Gone

[othyrsyde]

Oh wow I posted right before the update

No biggie, lol.

I know you've read all of this already and given me your thoughts at Bacchanalia, but if you want to add more here it's all good. But I am curious what others think, even if they haven't read the old version of the TL. I did drop a shit-ton of material so I'll wait until next weekend to update again, and just add in the maps of Maya-Guatemala and Iximche.

And don't be shy if anyone has questions.

 

[othyrsyde]

Well just wanted to pop in and say I haven't gotten the map done yet. It's hand drawn, and I fucked up on the coloring. But as they say, you at first don't succeed try try again, right? Still, it's not a very complex looking map, so I should have done later on today. It's going to be it's own post too so I can explain a few more basics about how the Maya kingdoms defined themselves and all that.

I'm a little torn though, since the next update is ready. But since it has to do with happenings back in Central Mexico, posting a map on Guatemala might be better accompanying the following update, since we're back in the midst of Maya shenanigans.

So I leave it up to you. Let me know if you want the map first or the update?

 

[St. Just]

I vote update first!

 

[othyrsyde]

Removed because there might be a published version

 

[othyrsyde]

That ends all the rewrites. Hope everyone likes the new format. Also I upped the size of the text written in Garamond font. It's less distinguishable from the parts written in Book Antiqua, but it seems like it would be easier to read. Like it hate it? Let me know.

I'll post the Guatemala map in a few days, right before the next update goes up. Otherwise, have a good weekend.

 

[Jonathan Edelstein]

Onward to uncharted waters - and hopefully with more language and cultural notes, which are just as good as the story.

 

[St. Just]

Very nice, very nice. Who is the Spaniards in the flashback/POV sections? Rooting for Olid and the Tlaxcalteca.

 

[othyrsyde]

Onward to uncharted waters - and hopefully with more language and cultural notes, which are just as good as the story.

Yep, and I can't wait. Don't worry about the later either

The next update should be up sometime this week. Finished the rough draft tonight, so I just need to go over it. Plus the artwork, which includes a pretty detailed map.

Very nice, very nice. Who is the Spaniards in the flashback/POV sections? Rooting for Olid and the Tlaxcalteca.

Thank you too. The Spaniard telling it from 1st person POV is Salazar. He'll continue to narrate parts for the stuff going on in Central Mexico. Xochitl will be the 1st person POV for the parts in Guatemala.

 

[Jord839]

I apologize for the delay in replying. I had forgotten how long it takes for me to memorize the native terms and reread the updates to fully understand it all. Hopefully that'll get easier and I'll learn some of them.

Onto actual commentary.

I'm seeing a few things that stand out in the rewrite compared to the older version, common events are a bit clearer to follow it seems to me but at the same time the addition of the scenes with the Tlaxcalteca(I'll discuss them more later) show something I did not recall from the original version regarding the chaotic and divisive nature the Guerra del Indies taking on. The Spaniards are not particularly liked by just about anyone, but grudges and memories are long and the different nations aren't completely willing to forget them just yet, so there's intra-Indian and intra-European fighting going on that muddles up the whole thing quite a bit. The plus side of that, of course, is that the instability makes Spain desperate for whatever accommodations it can get from its "loyal allies" and/or "honorable soon-to-be-former enemies" to hold onto what they've gotten.

Which brings me to the Tlaxcalans. They're shaping up to have a very interesting future in this new version of Mexico, taking reigns of power and influence in Mexico for themselves through their past loyalty and continued (albeit opportunistic) alliance to the Spaniards. They realize that, aside from the Spaniards, the next spot on the Mexica shitlist is them and are acting to nip a threat in the bud while addressing the issues that have "poisoned" their "strong alliance" with the Spaniards. I have to admire Lorenzo's shrewd ambitions here, though I have the feeling he's not going to get things exactly as he wants as time goes on. In particular, the followers/sympathizers/beneficiaries of the Aztec/Maya alliance and Emaranado are likely to be even more resentful of the Tlaxcalans and their new(or regained, I suppose) status as major power-brokers of New Spain.

Of course, I could be completely wrong in my reading, and if so please feel free to correct me.

 

[othyrsyde]

I apologize for the delay in replying. I had forgotten how long it takes for me to memorize the native terms and reread the updates to fully understand it all. Hopefully that'll get easier and I'll learn some of them.

Onto actual commentary.

I'm seeing a few things that stand out in the rewrite compared to the older version, common events are a bit clearer to follow it seems to me but at the same time the addition of the scenes with the Tlaxcalteca(I'll discuss them more later) show something I did not recall from the original version regarding the chaotic and divisive nature the Guerra del Indies taking on. The Spaniards are not particularly liked by just about anyone, but grudges and memories are long and the different nations aren't completely willing to forget them just yet, so there's intra-Indian and intra-European fighting going on that muddles up the whole thing quite a bit. The plus side of that, of course, is that the instability makes Spain desperate for whatever accommodations it can get from its "loyal allies" and/or "honorable soon-to-be-former enemies" to hold onto what they've gotten.

Which brings me to the Tlaxcalans. They're shaping up to have a very interesting future in this new version of Mexico, taking reigns of power and influence in Mexico for themselves through their past loyalty and continued (albeit opportunistic) alliance to the Spaniards. They realize that, aside from the Spaniards, the next spot on the Mexica shitlist is them and are acting to nip a threat in the bud while addressing the issues that have "poisoned" their "strong alliance" with the Spaniards. I have to admire Lorenzo's shrewd ambitions here, though I have the feeling he's not going to get things exactly as he wants as time goes on. In particular, the followers/sympathizers/beneficiaries of the Aztec/Maya alliance and Emaranado are likely to be even more resentful of the Tlaxcalans and their new(or regained, I suppose) status as major power-brokers of New Spain.

Of course, I could be completely wrong in my reading, and if so please feel free to correct me.

It's no problem, I write pretty meaty updates. Well I might not have emphasized it as much in the original, but the conflict was suppose to be pretty divisive along both indigenous and Spanish lines (especially since before it was written in a more simplistic and elite propaganda-approved style). The fractures that existed in OTL completely gave in this one, and I wanted to show this. One to demonstrate the differences in views and ambitions each of the Mesoamerican cultures had, and also demonstrate the often simplistic "Aztec and Maya" view of the region - which all goes into humanizing them, both the bad and the good. It also goes into the irony of how much the Spaniards relied on Natives to build their empire over them, and how they'll need cooperation even more to come out of this, as you pointed out.

As for the Tlaxcalans, yes, they again get leaned on by the conquistadors, but unlike last time they have more of an idea of the people they're dealing with, and have an opportunity to exploit it even more to their benefit. As for how it all turns out for them, we will see as we reach the conclusion of this war.

 

[othyrsyde]

Maya of Cuauhtemallan

​

These are the Maya polities/language groups of the highlands and the southeastern Yucatan that stood during the Conquista, complete with general geographical features and some key settlements. I didn't define borders because the map is already quite cluttered, they were also rather fluid things, and because not all of them are actual states. For the later point some are just language groups. For instance the Tz'ujutil are actually at least two different amaq, while the Pokomam were three; and neither formed a winaq (only the K'iche, Kaqchikels, and Chojoma were at the winaq stage).

I've also included the indigenous names for the rivers and bodies of water that could so far be found in the course of my research.

Lake Choi = Lake Atitlan
Lake Mungia = Lake Isabal
Silbapec River = Motogua
Icbolay River = Usumancita
Cancuen River = Pasion
Ulia River = Ulua
Balaliama River = Chamelecon
Olopa River = Lempia (it's still called the Olopa in Guatemala though)

 

[9 Fanged Hummingbird]

You were able to find native names for all those bodies of water!? Nice map, by the way, though it seems like Kowoj is absent from it.

 

[Damascius]

I like this a lot!

 

[othyrsyde]

You were able to find native names for all those bodies of water!? Nice map, by the way, though it seems like Kowoj is absent from it.

Yep, I dug through a lot of books, particularly one where it explored a priests missionary efforts in the Peten region. It matched up some of the names he listed for bodies of water and such to their modern names. Others were found on archaeological and geographic papers, and even the odd tourism site (especially in Guatemala where they list 'local names' the Maya insist on calling them.

And thanks for the compliment, I'm still wondering if it should be colored or not (similar to the one done on the Anahuac Valley in the last update). As for the Kowoj, they looked to live north of Lake Itza, which is beyond the map (and my stupid scanner keeps cutting off the "Lake" part Lake Itza too ).

I like this a lot!

Thank you too, glad you like it.

 

[Pururauka]

So... "why you no update?"

 

[othyrsyde]

So... "why you no update?"

Sorry Last week I worked ALOT of overtime (like 36 hours in 3 days). Plus I've been studying for my journeyman's test. So I won't have time to finish it until this weekend.

 

[Pururauka]

Sorry Last week I worked ALOT of overtime (like 36 hours in 3 days). Plus I've been studying for my journeyman's test. So I won't have time to finish it until this weekend.

Ah, you mean life got in the way? We musn't let such trivial things hinder the inexorable march of alt-history!

 

[othyrsyde]

Sorry the update isn't up yet. There's a lot of confusion over the genealogy of the K'iche rulers, like who's the son of who. Sources are pointing all over the place. Even the Popol Vuh is confusing the hell out of me. So until I figure this out, since it's central to the next update, there's going to be a longer delay. Sorry again. We can thank the morons that burned the records of the most literate indigenous society in the Americas for this.

 

[Deleted member 67076]

Welp, its been far too long since I've commented. Don't worry about the when you update, after all quality trumps quantity.

 

[othyrsyde]

Ok, my earlier quandary is probably figured out as well as it's ever going to be. So a big THANKS! to 9 Fang who swept in to save the Maya day yet again.

So I'm back to finishing up this next update, so keep on the look out!

Welp, its been far too long since I've commented. Don't worry about the when you update, after all quality trumps quantity.

Thanks. I try to be as thorough as possible on these. Thankfully I'm reaching the point where enough research is done that I can just make more educated guesses rather than wading through book after book and article after article.