Getting desperate for a plausible CSA victory scenario

That is a tough one unless you can find a good POD early enough to change the situation. The CSA didn't really have much of a chance at all. They were outgunned, outnumbered, had little industry, bad executive leadership, and mixed performance in their generals.

I would say you needed a POD that would give you not only a different executive leadership, but an either weaker or more divided North; weaker federal government, stronger Copperhead or other form of dissident movement, less competent president, more infighting between key departments, etc....

I don't think that British intervention is likely. Slavery is too much of an issue to gloss over, they would likely require some sort of manumission, which is something the planter class wouldn't back down on. Even with a worse Trent affair they wouldn't go to war. Lincoln would have to really push it to get Britain to get into a war that cost them much more than it would gain.

Possibly with a more powerful Napoleon III. He was interested, but then would a more powerful Napoleon have enough to gain from the project. Especially since some rebels were considering an invasion of Mexico.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
You don't need a more powerful Napoleon III, he was seriously considering it in OTL. He just didn't get the nod from the Brits - that's a relatively easy change as they go.
 
I think any plausible timeline that allows the CSA to survive the Civil War is also one that sees the CSA losing a substantial amount of territory. The CSA can probably control the states on the east coast, but they are going to lose a lot - perhaps most of the Western theater and control of the Mississippi River and New Orleans.

It is impossible over a long war for one side to always every single military break. So that isn't a solution.

Foreign intervention would help the CSA, but it would also inflame popular support for the Union. It's much harder to be a Copperhead if France is invading your country, and the economy is going to mobilized much more. There are still things the Union can do to compensate.
 
My timeline proposal, Mk2 with robcraufurd improvements

December 1861
Two Guinness World Records factoids: Ulysses S. Grant gains the dubious distinction of becoming the first general to die in the war when he his crushed by his horse at Belmont battle and William Tecumseh Sherman becomes the only high raking officer of the war to commit suicide.

Comment: IOTL Sherman suffered in that period of melancholia, todays known as depression. ITTL his depression is worse and one gloomy December morning he kisses his gun.

October 1861 - March 1862
The workers building the CSS Mississippi and CSS Louisiana are excused from military drills and the two units are fully operational by the end of March 1862.

April 1862
Farragut assaults New Orleans. While he is busy reducing St. Philip and Jackson, his wooden ships fleet is attack by the CSS Mississippi and CSS Louisiana. Union cannons do almost nothing to the Confederate ships while the Confederate point-blank fire mauls the Unions ships. The Unions fleet is de facto bottled by the river banks and escape is impossible. The battle ends in one of the worst naval defeats of history.

Comment: New Orleans remains under confederate control. A large port and the second most important industrial hub of the South significantly improves Confederacy commercial situation, blockade runners activity and industrial production w.r.t. OTL. Farragut ends up POW or killed.

February - July 1862
McClernand, being a much less inspired leader than what he thinks, does repeatedly makes a mess in the west.

June - July 1862
The Peninsular Campaign ends with Union retreat.

August 1862
After many very public disagreements with Lincoln, McClernand and McClellan are almost simultaneously relieved from command, leaving Union public opinion disconcerted.

McClellan beings a press campaign to warn the Union public opinion about the dangerously naive meddlings of the "Illinois amateur" in the conduction of the war. McClernand, fearing that his political career might be stunted by his uninspiring war performance, joins McClellan in the denigration campaign against Lincoln and his administration.

Comment: from now on, the "Two Macs" (as they are known ITTL), become the darlings of Copperhead newspapers and public opinion. Since they have been high ranking Union officers, Seward cannot just lock them up as confederate collaborationists.

August 1862
Second Bull Runs ends in a bloody stalemate. Union situation is not significantly better than ITTL but Lee has to put on hold his invasion plans while he rebuilds the NVA.

Comment: Pope remains for a while in command. The time shift in command changes will have a severe impact 11 month in the future at Gettysburg. B.t.w. this POD is an example that sometimes the way to wank Confederates is to make them lose :D.

November 1862
Mid term Union elections. The northern public opinion is especially affected by a map drawn by McClellan and published on Copperhead papers, map that shows that a year and a half of war have almost left the front lines unchanged. People begin overtly questioning the wisdom to continue "Mr. Lincoln's war".

The republican/federalist electoral cartel barely manages to remain in control of the House. The Union gives, home and abroad, the impression of mismanagement and division.

Without any clear victory, the Declaration of Emancipation is still sitting inside Lincoln's desk. Abolitionists are getting more and more disillusioned with the war.

February - April 1863
Great Britain, France and Russia offer to broker a peace between the Union and the Confederacy. Southerners immediately accept, northerners are divided between "Peace Now" Copperheads and "War until Victory" hardliners. Lincoln tries to put a square peg in a round hole but has to throw the towel and the war partisans win.

Some of the decidedly un-diplomatic comments of Seward have been "leaked" to the Union press and end on Palmerston desk leaving him and the rest of the british government decidedly unimpressed.

Britain ad France recognize the Confederacy. The Confederacy gets greater access to supplies, while Union buys are restricted. Britain and France governments looks elsewhere while british and french held shipyards around the world build commerce raiders for the Confederacy.

June 1863
Seward presses for the Union to declare war on Britain and France and invade Canada. Lincoln pithly comments "We are not managing to subdue the rebels and you propose to add two empires the list of our enemies?". Even Seward has to admit that the plan is not smart.

July 1863
Hooker almost manages to lose the battle Gettysburg. Only AoP numerical superiority carries the day. Lincoln declares anyway Gettysburg a victory and announces the Declaration of Emancipation. It is easy for the Two Macs to spin the Declaration into nothing but a cynic attempt to raise servile insurrection within the South.

The Draft Riots rock the North, from New York to Chicago. The situation is so critical that even Lincoln seriously considers Seward proposal to enact Martial Law in the whole Union territory. Lincoln administration popular approval reaches an all time low. Copperhead newspapers openly discuss the need for some kind of "action".

July 1863 - March 1864
Confederate raiders wipe out Union commercial fleet, inflicting a de-facto counter-blockade. The immigration in the North collapses, which, together with men dying/wounded/recruited creates a job market crisis which causes wages to raise. Market disturbances morph into the first signs of a severe inflation.

February 1863 - April 1864
Generals Thomas and Sheridan manage to hammer their way along the Mississippi.

The advance is not without side-effects since the confederates, highly outnumbered, switch to hit-and-run attacks, guerilla raids and piracy on the river. The Union has to employ a staggering amount of troops to physically control every mile of the river and of its banks. The resources required are so large that the Tennessee front has to be put on hold.

October 1863 - May 1864
Meade (nominated after Gettysburg) attacks several times Lee but he never bests him enough to begin a serious drive towards Richmond. The losses incurred by the AotP (e.g. in the First and Second Battle of Wilderness) are so high that newspapers start to call Meade "George the Butcher". Lincoln, feeling that now the Union appears to have found generals capable of fighting, publicly confirms his support for Meade. Administration public support, which had slightly improved after western victories, sinks again.

January 1864
The Two Macs and Pendleton begin their bid for the presidency. The democratic platform is that the war is totally mismanaged, the economy is falling to pieces and that Lincoln is risking every day the overt military intervention of Britain and France.

June - July 1864
New Orleans falls to the Union. The Father of the Waters runs again unvexed to the sea. The amount of troops required to keep the river under control precludes further operations on the west; Lincoln has no alternative but to bet the result of November elections on the Virginia front.

Comment: counter intuitively, the fall of New Orleans does not help Lincoln re-election bid: now that the Middle West is no more land locked, war support there wanes.

June - October 1864
Meade makes a supreme effort against Lee. A series of never before so bloody battles brings AotP near Richmond (a cavalry raid by General Killpatrick manages to reach Richmond outskirts before being turned back by General Forrest cavalry counter attack). The confederate switch to extensive field fortifications and to a completely defensive posture stops the Union tide at the 11th hour.

November 1864
The democrats win the elections. McClellan is President, Pendleton Vice President, McClernand Secretary of State.

Lincoln orders the cease fire along all fronts, Davis follows within days.

January 1865
Peace talks begin in Havana with under the aegis of Britain, France and Russia.

April 1865
The treaty of Havana is signed. The Confederacy accepts the situation on the ground (i.e. Texas being split away) and renounces to any further claim on CONUS territories; in exchange the Union accepts the Confederacy existence and agrees for toll-free transfers overland thru the Mississippi corridor.

Many people, north and south of the border, make no mystery that this is not a peace but just an armistice to prepare for Round 2.


As you can see, no AK-47s are involved, just the death of two very crucial persons, the timely completion of two ships and the confederates doing, by sheer luck, a bit less mistakes. I don't see this sequence of events terribly unlikely.
 
The most plausible CSA Victory scenario is not to fight at all.

Don't attack Fort Sumter.

Drag the negotiations out, and keep dragging them out.

Take the case to the Supreme Court. Most of the Judges are in the South's pocket. This is the Dred Scott court after all.

Without a cause, Lincoln can't move. The whole thing gets nattered to death. South walks away.

The minute a shot is fired, it's game over for the South.
 

jahenders

Banned
Even if everything else you postulate did occur, I don't see why Lincoln would choose to issue a cease fire. He might choose to fight up until McClellan's inauguration.

Even then, McClellan might have (at one point) run on a peace platform, but that doesn't mean he's necessarily going to immediately start negotiations if it looks like we can soon win instead. He might even start negotiations, but continue fighting while they drag on. You don't necessarily need a truce to start negotiating -- keeping the shells flying can incentivize diplomats.

November 1864
The democrats win the elections. McClellan is President, Pendleton Vice President, McClernand Secretary of State.

Lincoln orders the cease fire along all fronts, Davis follows within days.

January 1865
Peace talks begin in Havana with under the aegis of Britain, France and Russia.
 
I don't see why Lincoln would choose to issue a cease fire. He might choose to fight up until McClellan's inauguration.
It probably depends on your view of Lincoln, but I can see him accepting the verdict of the electorate in a wistful, melancholic way and choosing not to throw any more lives away in the pursuit of a goal that he knows cannot be accomplished. This would be reinforced if the climax of the campaign was for the Confederates to win a significant victory like Seven Pines- something just sufficient to persuade Meade that he needs to withdraw, even a little way, to recuperate.
 
Off the top of my head: re-jigger Gettysburg such that it's a draw/tactical Union victory, and Lee manages to march on Baltimore. In the panic of the approaching army, a French cargo ship/ships are burned by rioters, leading to the French to recognize the Confederacy and offer mediation, while the British sit on their hands and wait. McClellan gets elected on a peace platform, let's the "wayward sisters go", CSA survives.

It's not pretty, but it's about as plausible as what CalBear used to get the Reich to survive the Eastern Front (no invasion of Africa, extra troops are used in Barbarossa, Stalin has a fit and executes his Generals).
 

Saphroneth

Banned
Very true - you just need something that gets the CSA independent, it doesn't need to be the most plausible route.
It's explicitly letting the CSA break away and then turning consequences back to full ;)
 
I think the easiest way would be for McClellan to become president of the Union.
If he proves to be a president as good as he was a general, then the CSA only have to sit back and allow the Little Mac to imagine a two million strong Confederate army and he will beg Richmond for peace terms.
 
I disagree with everyone saying you need to change up foreign affairs or just let the CSA go. If that was the case the CSA wouldn't have a national identity much like the USA barely had one before the civil war. People are formed by these kinds of events and the CSA would have killed slavery slowly through peaceful trade and good relations with the USA if they were just let go.

As for militarily victories, the CSA was backwards but many backwards countries have won against not-backwards countries.

How? Better leadership and thinking.

CSA could mobilize more people because slaves can work fields, as long as they repress them enough. Say Davis devolved power to governors, giving them what they wanted, but introduced a "militaries slave coed' giving pay and the chance for slaves to buy freedom for overtime work, appeasing them and increasing food production. Meanwhile, the Trent affair goes worse so the CSA is more able to negotiate food imports from Britain.

The bolded is very near ASB if not actual ASB. The war started the war over slavery and the CSA won't do anything to try and appease slaves short of Grant knocking on the door of Richmond. In OTL a bill was barely passed that allowed the CSA to recruit slaves the day before Grant took Richmond and even then the terms were such both Lee and Davis knew it wouldn't raise any Black Troops.
 
I think the easiest way would be for McClellan to become president of the Union.
If he proves to be a president as good as he was a general, then the CSA only have to sit back and allow the Little Mac to imagine a two million strong Confederate army and he will beg Richmond for peace terms.

Better yet have Mac win and then have his traitor VP candidate take over.
 
Since a lot of these scenarios hinge on a Peace Democrat victory in 1864, I'd like to point out that it would have been a lot easier if Fremont stayed in the race. The "Radical Democracy Party" nominated Fremont because they were upset that Lincoln wasn't going far enough in his anti-slavery positions. However, Fremont dropped out in September because he saw the Democrats' platform and was terrified that splitting the vote would result in McClellan basically surrendering to the Confederacy. Maybe if the Democratic platform is a bit less radical sounding, Fremont would stay in, split the vote and put McClellan in office.
 
No Crimean war.
Better weather in Europe and bumper food harvest leaving Britain and France less dependent on imported wheat from the Union or Union bans wheat exports to Europe until Europe stops buying cotton from CSA.
Union makes trading with CSA a capital crime.
No stock pile of cotton in Europe at start of war.
Union fires shoot in civil war.
Trent affair crew of British ship put on trial.

Possible, but not probable.
 
No Crimean war.
Better weather in Europe and bumper food harvest leaving Britain and France less dependent on imported wheat from the Union or Union bans wheat exports to Europe until Europe stops buying cotton from CSA.
Union makes trading with CSA a capital crime.
No stock pile of cotton in Europe at start of war.
Union fires shoot in civil war.
Trent affair crew of British ship put on trial.

Possible, but not probable.


Even then the UK would probably just blockade the Union and break the blockade of the Confederacy until the Union releases Trent and makes an apology. Saving the South is going to cost a lot of blood and money, and I cant see the UK doing so just out of anger due to a diplomatic slight. FYI "King Cotton" failed because the UK just switched to Egyptian suppliers, so having an excess of food crops wouldn't really make a difference diplomatically.
 
Even then the UK would probably just blockade the Union and break the blockade of the Confederacy until the Union releases Trent and makes an apology. Saving the South is going to cost a lot of blood and money, and I cant see the UK doing so just out of anger due to a diplomatic slight. FYI "King Cotton" failed because the UK just switched to Egyptian suppliers, so having an excess of food crops wouldn't really make a difference diplomatically.

They did not buy Egyptian cotton for long.

During the American Civil War, American cotton exports slumped due to a Union blockade on Southern ports, and also because of a strategic decision by the Confederate government to cut exports, hoping to force Britain to recognize the Confederacy or enter the war. This prompted the main purchasers of cotton, Britain and France, to turn to Egyptian cotton. British and French traders invested heavily in cotton plantations. The Egyptian government of Viceroy Isma'il took out substantial loans from European bankers and stock exchanges. After the American Civil War ended in 1865, British and French traders abandoned Egyptian cotton and returned to cheap American exports,[citation needed] sending Egypt into a deficit spiral that led to the country declaring bankruptcy in 1876, a key factor behind Egypt's occupation by the British Empire in 1882.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotton
 
It probably depends on your view of Lincoln, but I can see him accepting the verdict of the electorate in a wistful, melancholic way and choosing not to throw any more lives away in the pursuit of a goal that he knows cannot be accomplished. This would be reinforced if the climax of the campaign was for the Confederates to win a significant victory like Seven Pines- something just sufficient to persuade Meade that he needs to withdraw, even a little way, to recuperate.

Completely agree.

About Lincoln: he was a very decent man. He did not start the war and he would never had wasted pointlessly the lives of anybody, US or Confederate.

Would the rest of the Republican Party nomenklatura have accepted to go down without a fight? I believe not, but any further discussion would place me squarely under CalBear ban hammer.
 
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