Emberverse: The Golden Princess

I do wish Stirling would leave off the "Montivallans visit foreign land, and continually remark about how everyone is a bunch of hicks, easily outdone by their Montivallan counterparts" stuff.

Yes, it could be accounted for by the Montivallans only being shown roaming around comparatively less advanced areas....but given that even Iowa got a bit of this, despite being the most advanced Power in North America....I'm guessing that it's just Montival Uber Alles. That's a bit too fanfic-y for a writer of Stirling's talents (where the fanfic writer's original character/faction is purpose-built to be just "better" than everyone/everywhere else).
 
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Lateknight

Banned
I do wish Stirling would leave off the "Montivallans visit foreign land, and continually remark about how everyone is a bunch of hicks, easily outdone by their Montivallan counterparts" stuff.

Yes, it could be accounted for by the Montivallans only being shown roaming around comparatively less advanced areas....but given that even Iowa got a bit of this, despite being the most advanced Power in North America....I'm guessing that it's just Montival Uber Alles. Th

It could be they're just a bunch of xenophobic self centered idjits like the most pre industrial societies.
 
It could be they're just a bunch of xenophobic self centered idjits like the most pre industrial societies.

Montival is not a pre-industrial society* (though parts of it are very lightly industrialized).
They have as much machine driven industry as the mid-19th Century US....just without the most energy-intensive processes, and much, much more hydraulically-driven (substituting for steam power) machinery.


It's a serious mistake not to acknowledge that "modern" life was essentially possible without electricity (though less sybaritically comfortable), and the 1890's US/UK had most of the hallmarks of our current civilization (even after you strip out steam power and early electrification). A lot of people seem to think that 1850's London was effectively indistinguishable from 1450's London.


But, yes, Montivallans are rather spoiled. It's that they never, ever get called on it or suffer for it. Much like Juniper's ability to talk anyone into anything (despite the dialogue being Logic 101 fallacies galore), or everyone falling in love with Rudi. Stirling cannot bring himself to spank his own characters.
 
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Lateknight

Banned
Montival is not a pre-industrial society* (though parts of it are very lightly industrialized).
They have as much machine driven industry as the mid-19th Century US....just without the most energy-intensive processes, and much, much more hydraulically-driven (substituting for steam power) machinery.


It's a serious mistake not to acknowledge that "modern" life was essentially possible without electricity (though less sybaritically comfortable), and the 1890's US/UK had most of the hallmarks of our current civilization (even after you strip out steam power and early electrification). A lot of people seem to think that 1850's London was effectively indistinguishable from 1450's London.

It's at the level were people are have increditbly limited life experience compared to modern times. Plus most the population is rural, despite strilings views historically farming societies were not the most tolerant around living in a tightnit groups seems to make people wary of outsiders. Even the upper class in such a society would be limited that in way it's a small group that's been taught for two generations now that they are better then rest of us because of there birth.
 
It's at the level were people are have increditbly limited life experience compared to modern times. Plus most the population is rural, despite strilings views historically farming societies were not the most tolerant around living in a tightnit groups seems to make people wary of outsiders. Even the upper class in such a society would be limited that in way it's a small group that's been taught for two generations now that they are better then rest of us because of there birth.

Yeah, it's noted (as early as the Twins saying so, in TSL) that the well-to-do (Bearkillers, in the case of the Twins) generally consider a trip to Portland or Corvallis to qualify as "cosmopolitan".
Ironically, (outside of war vets or professional travelers/explorers) the PPA Associates are probably the most cosmopolitan group, since the Association mandates a lot of travel and living away from home (Fostering, Squire/Knight Service, staying at Court in Portland, visiting fellow Associates, etc).
In comparison, McKenzies and Bearkillers are going to be hopelessly insular, inside a generation or so.

Dunedain seem to travel a fair bit between staths....but seem to keep to their own enclaves whenever they aren't "at work" (caravan security, patrolling, etc).


Even city dwellers are going to be that way...just with a larger circle of experiences. The "shrinking of the world" was largely a function of cheap inter/transcontinental travel and telecommunications. The closest you'll come to that in the post-Change world is something like Iowa (with a large rail net and multiple large population centers facilitating lots of intra-regional commerce and travel) or the UK and immediately adjacent European coasts, where cheap and easy rail/sea travel networks exist.
 
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It's a pretty well-designed society.

What is it like?

Also, any more info on the evil Korean nation yet?

Stirling has a terrible tendency to leave us with vague impressions of the villains. One thing that always bugged me about the follow up series was that we got a very limited view of what it was like under CUT rule, so it was hard to get a feel for them as characters. To me at least.
 
What is it like?

Basically Exodus-type Hebrews (semi-nomadic, use camels, live by the Halacha, etc) mixed with Zionist Adventurers (everyone is combat-trained, and the various clans/subgroups coordinate defense/security). All founded by a guy (Yaakov) who figured he and his friends should get the hell out of LA before people started blaming the Jews.

I'm not doing it a fair description.
 
I continue to believe that Stirling missed some opportunities when he handwaved away all the military units, especially in places like Washington State.

Ft. Lewis is full of engineers, doctors, and quick-thinking killers (3 Brigades of Infantry, a Ranger Battalion, and 2/3rds of a Special Forces Group). They are literally next door to the Olympic Peninsula (lots of food, resources, and natural geographic barriers).


Fairchild AFB is in prime agricultural country. Provided Spokane can be deflected when it implodes, which shouldn't be too much trouble, since Fairchild is both in the "wrong" direction (literally off into the plains) and not visible from the main road. It's well-watered, has a few small towns around it, and is close to agricultural resources.
There should be a fairly sizeable community out there, at the end of CY 0.


Since Yakima (rather, the 7 towns around Yakima) came through OK, that implicitly includes the troops at Yakima Training Center (which could vary from a few hundred support types, to an Infantry Brigade, depending on the FTX schedule).


Dramatically, they are goldmines. The Change would do enough damage to the organizations (i.e. many gaps in the chain of command, resulting in a "council"/junta of Majors leading I Corps, etc) that you could have all kinds of exotic setups by the end of the year. Military Agrarian Socialism, outright monarchy, Roman-style Republic, Swiss Democracy, pseudo-Teutonic Knights.....all kinds of things.
 
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Basically Exodus-type Hebrews (semi-nomadic, use camels, live by the Halacha, etc) mixed with Zionist Adventurers (everyone is combat-trained, and the various clans/subgroups coordinate defense/security). All founded by a guy (Yaakov) who figured he and his friends should get the hell out of LA before people started blaming the Jews.

I'm not doing it a fair description.

That sounds pretty awesome.
 
One item from the new book:

I may be taking this the wrong way, but it sounds like Sterling is "movie-fying" the Dunedain. They are now using "long-hilted curved swords"....which sounds suspiciously like how you would describe the elven swords from the LOTR films (either the naginata-like "battle swords" from the Last Alliance and Helm's Deep, or the single-hand swords they use elsewhere).

By comparison:

In the original Trilogy, Astrid uses a Bearkiller-type backsword (and Eillir uses a McKenzie gladius/short sword).

In the Quest books, Mary and Ritva use PPA-type (we assume) longswords, like Rudi.


Oh, and they are still wearing "spired" helmets. Whatever those might be...
 
I continue to believe that Stirling missed some opportunities when he handwaved away all the military units, especially in places like Washington State.

Ft. Lewis is full of engineers, doctors, and quick-thinking killers (3 Brigades of Infantry, a Ranger Battalion, and 2/3rds of a Special Forces Group). They are literally next door to the Olympic Peninsula (lots of food, resources, and natural geographic barriers).


Fairchild AFB is in prime agricultural country. Provided Spokane can be deflected when it implodes, which shouldn't be too much trouble, since Fairchild is both in the "wrong" direction (literally off into the plains) and not visible from the main road. It's well-watered, has a few small towns around it, and is close to agricultural resources.
There should be a fairly sizeable community out there, at the end of CY 0.


Since Yakima (rather, the 7 towns around Yakima) came through OK, that implicitly includes the troops at Yakima Training Center (which could vary from a few hundred support types, to an Infantry Brigade, depending on the FTX schedule).


Dramatically, they are goldmines. The Change would do enough damage to the organizations (i.e. many gaps in the chain of command, resulting in a "council"/junta of Majors leading I Corps, etc) that you could have all kinds of exotic setups by the end of the year. Military Agrarian Socialism, outright monarchy, Roman-style Republic, Swiss Democracy, pseudo-Teutonic Knights.....all kinds of things.

There is mention of some kind of Grand Mutiny in Fort Lewis at least, it is only mentioned by Thurston's wife (along with starvation and plague). I think for the most part it seems that most of the military's forces that survived either headed to Boise with Thurston or were incorporated into Yakima.
 
There is mention of some kind of Grand Mutiny in Fort Lewis at least, it is only mentioned by Thurston's wife (along with starvation and plague). I think for the most part it seems that most of the military's forces that survived either headed to Boise with Thurston or were incorporated into Yakima.

That's in company with Stirling's Word of God that most of the troops marched into the cities and died/scattered when things finally collapsed.


In some cases, I buy this. In most others...not. If a large unit (usually the top echelon at whatever base, so I Corps at Lewis) survives the first 24 hours (with half its leadership slots unfilled, due to MIA/KIAs from the Change)....I doubt they will have much problem hanging together. The main leadership challenges would be in that first day, as surviving/in-contact officers assume authority in the empty slots.


Given that the "facts" of the Change (and their long-term implications) would be obvious to a military post within a few hours (SF units and the Ranger Battalion at Lewis have small unit live-fire exercises at all hours, so I Corps would know about both firearms and internal combustion engines no longer working, and they'd know it wasn't EMP)...nobody would send troops into the Seattle-Tacoma metroplex. Leaders wouldn't throw troops into unwinnable situations to make a gesture at saving people who obviously can't be saved. The command would transition straight to "preserve the Unit" mode, and act accordingly.


<Stirling simply says* that "I assume that the military would stay true to their oaths, and so die in the cities".....but then, they have to do that, or Norman's PPA would be significantly less of a threat to the Meeting States. IOW, it's authorial handwaving.>


I'm not at all joking when I say that I Corps (in a much-reduced form) and their dependents would be moving out of Ft. Lewis by the end of the first week. My guess is west, to the Olympic Peninsula (which has the requisite fishing and agriculture to support a population).

Places like, say, Edwards AFB or Ft. Benning.....yeah, they are just in a bad position. Most of the Navy/Marine bases aren't well-situated, either. Most of the military would perish or scatter, that's true enough. There are, however, a handful of major bases where (absent reaaaaaallll bad luck or total incompetence) you could expect large units to survive (even if they had to relocate) the first year.

Ft. Bragg and Ft. Jackson.....maybe. I am, for the Record, less than convinced that North Carolina would be a true Death Zone. There's a lot of towns and small cities that both have access to decent food supplies and are out of the natural path of the Death Plumes from the denser areas.

I'd fully expect the military to come out on top of the survivors in Hawaii. Especially on Oahu (where >90% of the population would die, so you can expect the survivors to be pretty bloody) and the Big Island.


Given the sheer number of odd bastards wielding Commissions, you can also expect the societies developing out of these military-dominated survivor clusters to range from "1950's America, with extra Fascism", to stuff that Norman would approve of, on down to truly weird things. Contrary to what a lot of fanfic writers seem to think.



*-to quote Stirling himself: "Basically, not many of the American military in the Emberverse survive because I assumed that they'd take their duty and their oaths very seriously indeed.

The downside of this is that it means trying to save large numbers of people who simply cannot be saved; they're attempting the impossible. The metropolitan centers are a problem without a solution."
 
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BTW, as of this point, we now have two characters who are specifically shown to have known the Change was coming.

Kalk the Norrheimer.
That Mormon girl from the anthology.
 
Washington

Hopefully this doesn't count as thread necromancy (it's a little less than a month old), but the commentary around the military surviving (and the fact that I've drive I-90 a dozen times or more to visit relatives in the Silver Valley up in Idaho) post-Change I decided to look into Washington State and it seems that Stirling missed the presence of two of the highest wheat producing counties in the United States, Lincoln and Whitman Counties; Lincoln has a population of ~10,000 at change, but has 500,000 acres of wheat planted and can produce close to 25 million bushels a year. And it's ~60 miles from Spokane, which means that those that make it out can be absorbed by the rural populace who will be desperately short of hands to bring in the harvest. Similarly Whitman County produces more wheat, barley, and lentils than any other county in the United States, and is home to Washington State University. With only ~40,000 people, it also seems to be another prime location for post-Change survival.

Yet the books seem to completely miss the fact that most of Eastern Washington is a giant wheat field. Maybe I'm missing some factor, like a heavy dependence on irrigation systems that will shut down post-Change, but still the opportunity was there. Especially if Fairchild AFB rallies and marches south, the primary centers of Lincoln County are two days' march away.

Any thoughts?
 

Lateknight

Banned
Hopefully this doesn't count as thread necromancy (it's a little less than a month old), but the commentary around the military surviving (and the fact that I've drive I-90 a dozen times or more to visit relatives in the Silver Valley up in Idaho) post-Change I decided to look into Washington State and it seems that Stirling missed the presence of two of the highest wheat producing counties in the United States, Lincoln and Whitman Counties; Lincoln has a population of ~10,000 at change, but has 500,000 acres of wheat planted and can produce close to 25 million bushels a year. And it's ~60 miles from Spokane, which means that those that make it out can be absorbed by the rural populace who will be desperately short of hands to bring in the harvest. Similarly Whitman County produces more wheat, barley, and lentils than any other county in the United States, and is home to Washington State University. With only ~40,000 people, it also seems to be another prime location for post-Change survival.

Yet the books seem to completely miss the fact that most of Eastern Washington is a giant wheat field. Maybe I'm missing some factor, like a heavy dependence on irrigation systems that will shut down post-Change, but still the opportunity was there. Especially if Fairchild AFB rallies and marches south, the primary centers of Lincoln County are two days' march away.

Any thoughts?

It's my understanding that Eastern Washington does in fact utilize excessive amounts of irragation to grow their crops. Eastern Washington is with the rain shadow of the cascades.
 
Makes sense then; dryland agriculture could maybe be successful, they managed it pretty successfully in the late 1800s/early 1900s with the Palouse being the second most populous region of Washington behind the Puget Sound area. Would be interesting to look into, thought admittedly it sounds like the PPA has gobbled up most of Eastern Washington, as have the Boisians on the Idaho side of the border.
 
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