Communist Confederacy Flag V1 - Suggestions and Input

[thekingsguard]

Aww, but I would've been a CCSA supporter (first time I can say that I'd be on the Commies' side since the Eastern Front)

That reminds me, what will become of the "conquered South"? Will they just learn to love being part of the USA again, or will there be some revanchism a-go-go?

They're still better than the slavers for what its worth.

As for the reclaimed South, depends on what bits you're talking about.

Kentucky pretty much gets let back in with little fuss, as the state had tired to leave the CSA a few times, and aside from the so-called Pig War (OTL Hatfields and McCoys fued), is all too happy to rejoin the USA. Aside from having a growing port on the Mississpi, it is very similar to OTL.

South Florida is mostly a military district/territory, though some resorts have started popping up - one thing of note is that the Seminoles in the central part of the state play the CCSA/CSSA and USA against each other, with the end game being getting a favorable settlement when Florida becomes whole again.

Indian Territory gets let in as the State of Sequoyah (OTL Oklahoma minus the panhandle).

Texas gets carved up into three states, carving two off of the more Unionist parts of the state. One made up of the Pan Handle centered on Amraillio gets let in as Comanchara, and is a state of Rangers and Oilmen for the most part. Much of the South Western part of the State, centered on El Paso, gets let in as Rio Bravo, and is very Tex-Mex in charachter. The Texan remnant, the eastern portion of the state, remains as a probational territory, though it has begun seeking statehood by the 1940s.

Louisiana is a territory, but for a different reason - much of the state is under the control of the Confederacy, or the Free City of New Orleans, a Danzig-esque city state that runs the area about 100 miles or so around New Orleans, and thrives as a trade center, port, intrigue, and den of sin - think 1950s Havana meets 1930s Chicago meets Las Vegas meets 1960s Berlin, with a dash of Wild West anarachy tossed in.

Arkansas is let back in as a state during the mid 1920s. It's slightly more built up on the Mississpi River, both for trade and military bases/fortifications.

Virginia is the most complex - after the Civil War, Virginia was divied up as part of the peace treaty - OTL West Virginia, along with Northern Virginia above the Rapohannock, including Fredericksberg, is given to the USA, while the rest goes to the CSA. For the fourty year split, both sides claimed to be the true government of Virginia, and following the war, the approch taken is to gradually bring the two halves back together. The way this is done is county-by-county reconstruction and readmission, and once they are deemed loyal enough, are added back onto Union Virginia. Much of the state is reuinited by the 1940s, though there is something of a divide between the more developed and industrialized loyalist North and the former-Confederate South which is still playing catch-up, and the divide has produced some interesting results - one such being that the Capital, rather than being in Richmond or Charleston, is moved to Charlottesville as a compromise.

 

[Superman]

They're still better than the slavers for what its worth.

As for the reclaimed South, depends on what bits you're talking about.

Kentucky pretty much gets let back in with little fuss, as the state had tired to leave the CSA a few times, and aside from the so-called Pig War (OTL Hatfields and McCoys fued), is all too happy to rejoin the USA. Aside from having a growing port on the Mississpi, it is very similar to OTL.

South Florida is mostly a military district/territory, though some resorts have started popping up - one thing of note is that the Seminoles in the central part of the state play the CCSA/CSSA and USA against each other, with the end game being getting a favorable settlement when Florida becomes whole again.

Indian Territory gets let in as the State of Sequoyah (OTL Oklahoma minus the panhandle).

Texas gets carved up into three states, carving two off of the more Unionist parts of the state. One made up of the Pan Handle centered on Amraillio gets let in as Comanchara, and is a state of Rangers and Oilmen for the most part. Much of the South Western part of the State, centered on El Paso, gets let in as Rio Bravo, and is very Tex-Mex in charachter. The Texan remnant, the eastern portion of the state, remains as a probational territory, though it has begun seeking statehood by the 1940s.

Louisiana is a territory, but for a different reason - much of the state is under the control of the Confederacy, or the Free City of New Orleans, a Danzig-esque city state that runs the area about 100 miles or so around New Orleans, and thrives as a trade center, port, intrigue, and den of sin - think 1950s Havana meets 1930s Chicago meets Las Vegas meets 1960s Berlin, with a dash of Wild West anarachy tossed in.

Arkansas is let back in as a state during the mid 1920s. It's slightly more built up on the Mississpi River, both for trade and military bases/fortifications.

Virginia is the most complex - after the Civil War, Virginia was divied up as part of the peace treaty - OTL West Virginia, along with Northern Virginia above the Rapohannock, including Fredericksberg, is given to the USA, while the rest goes to the CSA. For the fourty year split, both sides claimed to be the true government of Virginia, and following the war, the approch taken is to gradually bring the two halves back together. The way this is done is county-by-county reconstruction and readmission, and once they are deemed loyal enough, are added back onto Union Virginia. Much of the state is reuinited by the 1940s, though there is something of a divide between the more developed and industrialized loyalist North and the former-Confederate South which is still playing catch-up, and the divide has produced some interesting results - one such being that the Capital, rather than being in Richmond or Charleston, is moved to Charlottesville as a compromise.

If Virginia was divided, which side controls DC?

 

[FleetMac]

They're still better than the slavers for what its worth.

As for the reclaimed South, depends on what bits you're talking about.

Kentucky pretty much gets let back in with little fuss, as the state had tired to leave the CSA a few times, and aside from the so-called Pig War (OTL Hatfields and McCoys fued), is all too happy to rejoin the USA. Aside from having a growing port on the Mississpi, it is very similar to OTL.

South Florida is mostly a military district/territory, though some resorts have started popping up - one thing of note is that the Seminoles in the central part of the state play the CCSA/CSSA and USA against each other, with the end game being getting a favorable settlement when Florida becomes whole again.

Indian Territory gets let in as the State of Sequoyah (OTL Oklahoma minus the panhandle).

Texas gets carved up into three states, carving two off of the more Unionist parts of the state. One made up of the Pan Handle centered on Amraillio gets let in as Comanchara, and is a state of Rangers and Oilmen for the most part. Much of the South Western part of the State, centered on El Paso, gets let in as Rio Bravo, and is very Tex-Mex in charachter. The Texan remnant, the eastern portion of the state, remains as a probational territory, though it has begun seeking statehood by the 1940s.

Louisiana is a territory, but for a different reason - much of the state is under the control of the Confederacy, or the Free City of New Orleans, a Danzig-esque city state that runs the area about 100 miles or so around New Orleans, and thrives as a trade center, port, intrigue, and den of sin - think 1950s Havana meets 1930s Chicago meets Las Vegas meets 1960s Berlin, with a dash of Wild West anarachy tossed in.

Arkansas is let back in as a state during the mid 1920s. It's slightly more built up on the Mississpi River, both for trade and military bases/fortifications.

Virginia is the most complex - after the Civil War, Virginia was divied up as part of the peace treaty - OTL West Virginia, along with Northern Virginia above the Rapohannock, including Fredericksberg, is given to the USA, while the rest goes to the CSA. For the fourty year split, both sides claimed to be the true government of Virginia, and following the war, the approch taken is to gradually bring the two halves back together. The way this is done is county-by-county reconstruction and readmission, and once they are deemed loyal enough, are added back onto Union Virginia. Much of the state is reuinited by the 1940s, though there is something of a divide between the more developed and industrialized loyalist North and the former-Confederate South which is still playing catch-up, and the divide has produced some interesting results - one such being that the Capital, rather than being in Richmond or Charleston, is moved to Charlottesville as a compromise.

Sure, "Reclaimed" . Although given the states in question, at least the divide isn't strictly North vs. South as in OTL, what with VA, AR and TX being integrated apace. And a Free City of New Orleans is just delicious, I couldn't imagine it staying USA or CSA in an environment where they're not at least amicable (too important a trade nexus for both).

And yes, I was alluding that it would be better for the South to go Communist than a semi-Banana Republic; I might be biased about that though.

 

[thekingsguard]

If Virginia was divided, which side controls DC?

Obviously the USA The counties of Northern Virginia above Fredericksberg, including the city of Fredericksberg are given to the USA along with OTL Virginia.

Sure, "Reclaimed" . Although given the states in question, at least the divide isn't strictly North vs. South as in OTL, what with VA, AR and TX being integrated apace. And a Free City of New Orleans is just delicious, I couldn't imagine it staying USA or CSA in an environment where they're not at least amicable (too important a trade nexus for both).

And yes, I was alluding that it would be better for the South to go Communist than a semi-Banana Republic; I might be biased about that though.

That's one incentive behind the USA's reconstruction efforts - divide and play the peices against each other as you hew them back into the national fabric. By the time they get a star bac on the flag, They may not see themsleves as distinctly 'Southern' - and with a USA with a standing army and compulsatory service, they have no shortage of occupation troops.

Fear no bias - one of my initial and continuing motivations for the creation of this world and these stories is to utterly brutalize Confederate nostalgia, especially the idea the CSA would have been stable, long-lasting or a place worth living in.

 

[Superman]

I'm also wondering about if the US and its allies beat the Confederacy during this WWI analogue, how come it hasn't re-annexed it by now? Germany tried re-annexing Poland in WWII and would have if it won. But this sounds like a cool timeline. You should write it. I would read about it.

 

[FleetMac]

That's one incentive behind the USA's reconstruction efforts - divide and play the peices against each other as you hew them back into the national fabric. By the time they get a star bac on the flag, They may not see themsleves as distinctly 'Southern' - and with a USA with a standing army and compulsatory service, they have no shortage of occupation troops.

Not a bad strategy; a bit derivative, but they seem to be going about it in a smart and patient way which IMO is far more realistic and crafty than TL-191's clumsy Eastern Front shoe-horning.

Fear no bias - one of my initial and continuing motivations for the creation of this world and these stories is to utterly brutalize Confederate nostalgia, especially the idea the CSA would have been stable, long-lasting or a place worth living in.

Well, I meant biased only in that I have Appalachian roots and that I'd probably support the Reds in overthrowing the Planter class were I living in this TL, that's all. I actually adore the South wholeheartedly and without shame (I've lived in it most of my life, after all), but I also know it ain't perfect. And while the notion of an independent South in AH is a favorite of mine, I have ZERO love or loyalty to the Confederacy as we know it; it was too divisive, and founded on too rickety a foundation (economically, politically and morally especially).

I think I'd like this TL not to see the South get screwed at all, but rather because of the irony of a Communist state rising there (something that I can see happening due to the class/race inequality the CSA would've espoused). Plus, it includes a concept I've always wanted to see, a race-barrier breaking alliance between Afro-Southerners and the "rednecks" in bringing the planter and slaver-class down.

Erm, sorry, I didn't mean to go off on a tangent, just know I look forward to reading the timeline

 

[EnglishCanuck]

Awesome scenario Korsgaard!

I like how you've plotted this out! Unique, realistic, and utterly unexpected from the usual Southern Fiction that goes out! I'm sincerely looking forward to what you end up doing in this universe!

Love the flag btw

 

[thekingsguard]

I'm also wondering about if the US and its allies beat the Confederacy during this WWI analogue, how come it hasn't re-annexed it by now? Germany tried re-annexing Poland in WWII and would have if it won. But this sounds like a cool timeline. You should write it. I would read about it.

The US is part of an alliance with Germany, Russia and Italy (and Japan joins toward wars end, as well as a few smaller nations I'm still working out) known as the Revanchist Powers, often called the Four Eagles Alliance for short, given the four nations use of the Eagle as a national symbol. The Great War analogue (known ITTL as the Reckoning War) is fought against Great Britian, France (ruled by Napoleon IV), Autria-Hungary, the Ottoman Empire, the Confederate States of America, and Mexico (led by Emperor Maximillion).

As you might guess, the USA is from the start fighting a three-front war, on top of being obliged to help thier allies. So while they curbstomp the Mexicans and Confederates within the first year or so of the war, they take minor territory exchanges so they can focus elsewhere - and in the CSSA's case, they think the nation will collapse soon enough, letting them pick of the peices at their leisure - by the mid-1910s, it's clear that isn't going to happen.

Not a bad strategy; a bit derivative, but they seem to be going about it in a smart and patient way which IMO is far more realistic and crafty than TL-191's clumsy Eastern Front shoe-horning.

Well, I meant biased only in that I have Appalachian roots and that I'd probably support the Reds in overthrowing the Planter class were I living in this TL, that's all. I actually adore the South wholeheartedly and without shame (I've lived in it most of my life, after all), but I also know it ain't perfect. And while the notion of an independent South in AH is a favorite of mine, I have ZERO love or loyalty to the Confederacy as we know it; it was too divisive, and founded on too rickety a foundation (economically, politically and morally especially).

I think I'd like this TL not to see the South get screwed at all, but rather because of the irony of a Communist state rising there (something that I can see happening due to the class/race inequality the CSA would've espoused). Plus, it includes a concept I've always wanted to see, a race-barrier breaking alliance between Afro-Southerners and the "rednecks" in bringing the planter and slaver-class down.

Erm, sorry, I didn't mean to go off on a tangent, just know I look forward to reading the timeline

Yeah, that's part of the reason I'm doing it - TL-191 was too derivitive at times. I'm going for a more realistic approach, one that admitedly, a bit of a Confedi-screw. Because that should be a thing

Don't get me wrong, I'm a proud Virginian myself, I have nothing against southerners, the region and the people have much t be proud of. The Confederacy is not one of them though, and I have a bit of a dream that if this takes off, I'll have done my part is ripping the vineer off of Confederate Nostalgia.

While I can't promise everything about the CSSA will be perfect, as it is a communist one-party state after all, it won't be flat out dystopian - think OTL Cuba with an infusion of the new South. In some ways, it will be better - one thing the CSSA does is force industrialization of the Deep South decades ahead of schedule. Plus, like you, the idea of a Communist, increasingly mixed-race industrial south puts a big old grin on my face

Awesome scenario Korsgaard!

I like how you've plotted this out! Unique, realistic, and utterly unexpected from the usual Southern Fiction that goes out! I'm sincerely looking forward to what you end up doing in this universe!

Love the flag btw

Thrilled you think so! I'm humbled by yourt praise my friend!

That inversion is big motivation of me writing it - my goal is that any Confederate Nostalgist will read the books, put them down, and then go out and burn a Confederate flag. If I manage to demonize the CSA half as much as the Lost Causers glorified it, job well done.

Thank Cuāuhtemōc for the art! I wanted it plausible ITTL, yet still recognizably Confederate and Communsit for anyone who glances at it in OTL - I have him some ideas, and boom! He made this marvelous banner!

 

[FleetMac]

Yeah, that's part of the reason I'm doing it - TL-191 was too derivitive at times. I'm going for a more realistic approach, one that admittedly, a bit of a Confedi-screw. Because that should be a thing

Don't get me wrong, I'm a proud Virginian myself, I have nothing against southerners, the region and the people have much t be proud of. The Confederacy is not one of them though, and I have a bit of a dream that if this takes off, I'll have done my part is ripping the vineer off of Confederate Nostalgia.

While I can't promise everything about the CSSA will be perfect, as it is a communist one-party state after all, it won't be flat out dystopian - think OTL Cuba with an infusion of the new South. In some ways, it will be better - one thing the CSSA does is force industrialization of the Deep South decades ahead of schedule. Plus, like you, the idea of a Communist, increasingly mixed-race industrial south puts a big old grin on my face

-Hey, as long as it's not meant to be a Southron-in-general screw, I'm in (and yes, I do believe there's a difference between the Confederacy and the South, especially nowadays). And TL-191 had a good concept, but Turtledove's love of convergence and just laziness just made me utterly unable to enjoy it outside the broad setting.

-Really, which part of VA? I grew up less than 15 minutes away from Stratford Hall, aka Robert E. Lee's estate...needless to say, he was something of a local hero even more than elsewhere. The problem with Confederate Nostalgia is people forget that it was the cause of the bloodiest war in American history, featured a morally disgusting institution as part of its bedrock, and contributed to the cultural backslide in a region otherwise noted for its own style, character and cultural distinctiveness (leading to things like the KKK, for example). I've never lost sight of that, which is part of the reason why I keep my ear to the ground for most Southron-independence TLs, in hopes that it will be something other than the CSA.

-I understand that the CSSA will be a flawed and unpalatable place (Communism is still Communism, after all), so it's a matter of taking in the good with the bad as I see it. And honestly I think Cuba's a good model for a Red South, in terms of economy (although those minerals in the Appalachians will help industry out something fierce) and foreign policy ("total-defense" concept, perhaps seeking a foreign backer to ease the pressure from the North). And the alliance thing is just too cool, since blacks and hillbillies had much in common from a practical standpoint (to wit, being oppressed by the Tuckahoes) and much to gain thru cooperation. One thing I do have to ask though, is how will a Communist government reconcile itself with the anti-establishment, self-reliant, populist culture that the region is known for?

 

[SpanishSpy]

How would Native Americans in the CSSA be treated? Would there be any representation for them on the flag?

 

[Klisz]

snip

That was some really great criticism. We need this sort of crit more often.

 

[thekingsguard]

That was some really great criticism. We need this sort of crit more often.

Agreed - that was a great post, wonder what he'd think of the rest posted ehre?

How would Native Americans in the CSSA be treated? Would there be any representation for them on the flag?

Given how the one part of the CSA that had a good number of Native Americans, Indian territory, is ceded to the USA in the peace treaty, I imagine thier influence and representation would be very little.

That said, Indian territory gains statehood in the USA as Seqoyah (OTL Oklahoma, minus the panhandle) and I'm trying to work in a way for the Lakota and Cheyenne to get a better fate than OTL - my current idea is that Lew Wallace and George Custer swap stations in the frontier, with Lew Wallace making a settlement with the tribes in the Dakotas/Montana, while Custer makes war on the Apache.

Thta said, the fate of the Seminole may be interesting to you. Flordia is divided between the CSSA and USA in the peace treaty that ends the Great War analogue, the CSSA getting the North, the USA gets the south. The center however, is somewhat under debate, and rather than come to blows over swampland, the two have allowed the area some autonomy under the only residents of the region: The Seminole.

The Seminole then begin to play both sides against each other, smuggling goods into the CSSA, intel to the USA, and people to both sides, in hopes that when the inevitable war comes, they can get the best possible settlement from the winner.

-Hey, as long as it's not meant to be a Southron-in-general screw, I'm in (and yes, I do believe there's a difference between the Confederacy and the South, especially nowadays). And TL-191 had a good concept, but Turtledove's love of convergence and just laziness just made me utterly unable to enjoy it outside the broad setting.

Not at all - I am still trying to figure out just how Southern culture and Northern culture would change from the divide and later Communism. I've got a few morsels plotted out - Jack Daniels whiskey hasn't been brewed since before the Communsits took over, making bottles both rare and valuable. The Communists have started to grow opium as a control drug, and have utilized a still-drug infused Coca Cola as a drink ration - as for soda in the North, Moxie is the go to cola of choice. Margaret Mitchell, who wrote Gone with the Wind in OTL, is a Communist propagandist, married to a high-ranking black Communist, and wrote a few noted volumes of Communist literature. The Wizard of Oz movie stars Shirley Temple. I'm open to any and all suggestions.

I have a huge ammount of respect for Turtledove and TL-191, but I do feel it is too deriviative. Something I hope to avoid somewhat, albiet using a great many OTL figures, by going an entirely different direction for the shapes and fates of nations.

Really, which part of VA? I grew up less than 15 minutes away from Stratford Hall, aka Robert E. Lee's estate...needless to say, he was something of a local hero even more than elsewhere. The problem with Confederate Nostalgia is people forget that it was the cause of the bloodiest war in American history, featured a morally disgusting institution as part of its bedrock, and contributed to the cultural backslide in a region otherwise noted for its own style, character and cultural distinctiveness (leading to things like the KKK, for example). I've never lost sight of that, which is part of the reason why I keep my ear to the ground for most Southron-independence TLs, in hopes that it will be something other than the CSA.

I'm from the Richmond area - born and raised in Glen Allen, and went to High School out in Hanover, the latter of which ingrained utter disdain for Confederate culture in me, based on the nature of the people who revered the CSA, based on little but ignorance and familial ties. It also helps that, from my own family background, they all immigrated later or fought for the Union.

One irony you may appriciate is Robert E. Lee's fate in this TL - given his land, estate and slaves would be on the Union end of the new border, he would be left with no land, no home and no slaves, making him unable to vote or participate in the Confederate government. I plan on having him die peniless, homeless and tossed aside by the very government whose independance he won - the first in a long line of people used and abused by the planters. What do you think?

I understand that the CSSA will be a flawed and unpalatable place (Communism is still Communism, after all), so it's a matter of taking in the good with the bad as I see it. And honestly I think Cuba's a good model for a Red South, in terms of economy (although those minerals in the Appalachians will help industry out something fierce) and foreign policy ("total-defense" concept, perhaps seeking a foreign backer to ease the pressure from the North). And the alliance thing is just too cool, since blacks and hillbillies had much in common from a practical standpoint (to wit, being oppressed by the Tuckahoes) and much to gain thru cooperation. One thing I do have to ask though, is how will a Communist government reconcile itself with the anti-establishment, self-reliant, populist culture that the region is known for?

I though the Cuba model was agood one too, though the added prestige of being both the first Communist nation and being something of the junior partner with later Communist nations will have an effect on the nation.

As for how the Communist government reconciles itself with the culture of the region, I imagine the backlash against the loose nature of the CSA will spark something of a move toward statism. Beyond that... we have a few members who have made plausible Communist USAs... maybe some of them can help form the nature and organization of a Communist CSA?

 

[FleetMac]

Not at all - I am still trying to figure out just how Southern culture and Northern culture would change from the divide and later Communism. I've got a few morsels plotted out - Jack Daniels whiskey hasn't been brewed since before the Communsits took over, making bottles both rare and valuable. The Communists have started to grow opium as a control drug, and have utilized a still-drug infused Coca Cola as a drink ration - as for soda in the North, Moxie is the go to cola of choice. Margaret Mitchell, who wrote Gone with the Wind in OTL, is a Communist propagandist, married to a high-ranking black Communist, and wrote a few noted volumes of Communist literature. The Wizard of Oz movie stars Shirley Temple. I'm open to any and all suggestions.

I have a huge ammount of respect for Turtledove and TL-191, but I do feel it is too deriviative. Something I hope to avoid somewhat, albiet using a great many OTL figures, by going an entirely different direction for the shapes and fates of nations.

That's a shame about JD (my fave liquor), although logical given the butterflies of the POD. And if Coke uses opium as part of its ingredient (diabolical idea, btw), where would the CSSA's attitudes lie toward "soft drugs"?

My biggest problem with TL-191 is the post WWI-era; the rise of not-Nazism (I doubt even the CSA would go that route, it just didn't have a strong enough sense of nationalism for it), the Population Reduction program (Southron demographics simply won't allow this to happen compared to the 3rd. Reich, plus the economy across the board would collapse and the CSA would be even more destitute than ever) and Jake Featherston in general.

I'm from the Richmond area - born and raised in Glen Allen, and went to High School out in Hanover, the latter of which ingrained utter disdain for Confederate culture in me, based on the nature of the people who revered the CSA, based on little but ignorance and familial ties. It also helps that, from my own family background, they all immigrated later or fought for the Union.

One irony you may appriciate is Robert E. Lee's fate in this TL - given his land, estate and slaves would be on the Union end of the new border, he would be left with no land, no home and no slaves, making him unable to vote or participate in the Confederate government. I plan on having him die peniless, homeless and tossed aside by the very government whose independance he won - the first in a long line of people used and abused by the planters. What do you think?

I used to hang out and party in Ashland and Mechanicsville, I think I know the area you're talking about a little

While it would be wrenching to see put to paper (despite my loathing of the Planter and Slaver classes, I still hold R.E. Lee in high regard; not that he was perfect, but compared to many of his contemporaries, he was hardly a monster either), I think it'd be a nice cautionary tale regarding the system he fought so hard to preserve. Plus, I think he'd be a good martyr for the CSSA when it does rise up.

I though the Cuba model was agood one too, though the added prestige of being both the first Communist nation and being something of the junior partner with later Communist nations will have an effect on the nation.

As for how the Communist government reconciles itself with the culture of the region, I imagine the backlash against the loose nature of the CSA will spark something of a move toward statism. Beyond that... we have a few members who have made plausible Communist USAs... maybe some of them can help form the nature and organization of a Communist CSA?

I just have a hard time seeing a Communist government being on board with heavily armed rural populations (although apparently the USSR wasn't too harsh about it in the Inter-war Period) and dealing with the heavily Evangelical region that it is (again though, there's an interesting juxtaposition in seeing a Bible-quoting billboard literally less than a mile from an ad for sex toys and porn...)

 

[thekingsguard]

That's a shame about JD (my fave liquor), although logical given the butterflies of the POD. And if Coke uses opium as part of its ingredient (diabolical idea, btw), where would the CSSA's attitudes lie toward "soft drugs"?

My biggest problem with TL-191 is the post WWI-era; the rise of not-Nazism (I doubt even the CSA would go that route, it just didn't have a strong enough sense of nationalism for it), the Population Reduction program (Southron demographics simply won't allow this to happen compared to the 3rd. Reich, plus the economy across the board would collapse and the CSA would be even more destitute than ever) and Jake Featherston in general.

Yeah, same with JD, but I figure it's a little way to make the revolution hit home, and it will make an important cameo every now and then - to say nothing of knock offs.

Diabolical AND OTL As for the CSSA drug attitude, it grows opium poppies on state plantations, both to put coke in the Party-issued Cola, and to sell to the decadent capitalists up north. To an extent, King Cotton got usurped by King Cocaine.

Also, Moonshine serves as a good vodka subtitute.

Yeah, TL-191 went off the rails a little around the Interwar/WWII era, if only because of the lengths they had to go to make the CSA a threat again. I go to great pains to point out what a struggle it was for the CSA to even make it to the turn of the century - much beyond that, let alone after a crushing Union victory. it would be on its last legs, let alone looking for Round 2.

I used to hang out and party in Ashland and Mechanicsville, I think I know the area you're talking about a little

While it would be wrenching to see put to paper (despite my loathing of the Planter and Slaver classes, I still hold R.E. Lee in high regard; not that he was perfect, but compared to many of his contemporaries, he was hardly a monster either), I think it'd be a nice cautionary tale regarding the system he fought so hard to preserve. Plus, I think he'd be a good martyr for the CSSA when it does rise up.

It's a nice area, but the resession has really kicked the crap out of the local economy - Ashland now depends entirely on fast food, mechanics, traffic tickets and the drug trade. It's sad... if you're familiar with the area, you may approaciate that my WWI great battle that turns the tide of the war takes place in Ashland.

I'm the same for Robert E Lee - I don't diefy his tactics, which were faulty more times that many of his fans would admit, but the man was honorable. I hope that his tragic tale of loss under the CSA will both do him honor and serve as a chilling wake up call for any who read it.

You think he may serve as a CSSA icon of sorts though?

I just have a hard time seeing a Communist government being on board with heavily armed rural populations (although apparently the USSR wasn't too harsh about it in the Inter-war Period) and dealing with the heavily Evangelical region that it is (again though, there's an interesting juxtaposition in seeing a Bible-quoting billboard literally less than a mile from an ad for sex toys and porn...)

I imagine the CSSA might be open to weapon ownership by party members for sure, as well as local militias.

As for religion, they work double-time to eradicate that old Southern Gospel - a story I'm working on about the post-Revolution Underground Railroad has the conductor in the story smuggling out a family guilty of being part of an underground Baptist congregation.

 

[FleetMac]

Yeah, same with JD, but I figure it's a little way to make the revolution hit home, and it will make an important cameo every now and then - to say nothing of knock offs.

Diabolical AND OTL As for the CSSA drug attitude, it grows opium poppies on state plantations, both to put coke in the Party-issued Cola, and to sell to the decadent capitalists up north. To an extent, King Cotton got usurped by King Cocaine.

Also, Moonshine serves as a good vodka substitute.

Yeah, TL-191 went off the rails a little around the Interwar/WWII era, if only because of the lengths they had to go to make the CSA a threat again. I go to great pains to point out what a struggle it was for the CSA to even make it to the turn of the century - much beyond that, let alone after a crushing Union victory. it would be on its last legs, let alone looking for Round 2.

-True enough. And King Cocaine sadly doesn't sound much wronger than King Cotton, given the way it was obtained...and Moonshine does serve as a good stand-in (hell, they're both pretty easy to distill, my dad made some side cash doing just that back in the day). Hopefully the similarities to the USSR won't extend to the point of Stalin's reign having an equivalent.

-As I see it, the only way for the CSA to survive the turn of the century would be to modernize/liberalize to the same overall standards as the West...at which point, it would cease to be the CSA in anything but name only. I'll say again, an independent Southern country appeals to me (given the right POD, I even think it's plausible for it to be a prosperous one), but the Confederacy ain't the way to do it. And after having gotten licked like they did in the First Great War (including the loss of NoVA), I can't see the Confederacy in TL-191 sticking around past the '30s TBH.

It's a nice area, but the resession has really kicked the crap out of the local economy - Ashland now depends entirely on fast food, mechanics, traffic tickets and the drug trade. It's sad... if you're familiar with the area, you may approaciate that my WWI great battle that turns the tide of the war takes place in Ashland.

I'm the same for Robert E Lee - I don't deify his tactics, which were faulty more times that many of his fans would admit, but the man was honorable. I hope that his tragic tale of loss under the CSA will both do him honor and serve as a chilling wake up call for any who read it.

You think he may serve as a CSSA icon of sorts though?

-That's a shame . The last time I'd really spent time there was summer 2008, having lived in San Antonio since then and visiting the Middle Peninsula/Northern Neck area, or gawdforsaken-NoVA (my ex-wife's family mostly lives up there, at least they're nice folks) in that time. I hear the city of Richmond isn't doing all that bad, but the area around it apparently hasn't been so lucky. Anyway, so it plays a big part in the reunification of Virginia with the Union?

-I think Lee was better as a "big picture" strategic/operational leader, as opposed to a tactician, that was more Jackson's or Early's thing. As sad as such an ending would be for the man, I think your rendition would do him justice as well based on what I've heard. And I can see the CSSA using him as a rallying cry (glossing over his plantation-owning roots and Slavocrat service, of course) against them "bourgouis damnyankees" AND the same Planter-elite class the revolution would've taken out of rotation. BTW you could probably use something like "Tuckahoe" or "Cracker" to stand in for "kulak" in a Red South (i.e. class traitors).

I imagine the CSSA might be open to weapon ownership by party members for sure, as well as local militias.

As for religion, they work double-time to eradicate that old Southern Gospel - a story I'm working on about the post-Revolution Underground Railroad has the conductor in the story smuggling out a family guilty of being part of an underground Baptist congregation.

-Agreed on the gun thing. And it seems like spanking the Church as an institution would be a losing battle to be fought by the Commies, but I suppose rules are rules. Although, wouldn't the "gospel" style of music be useful as a homey, feel-good source of "patriotic, proletarian camaraderie"? Or would they use something else?

 

[thekingsguard]

-True enough. And King Cocaine sadly doesn't sound much wronger than King Cotton, given the way it was obtained...and Moonshine does serve as a good stand-in (hell, they're both pretty easy to distill, my dad made some side cash doing just that back in the day). Hopefully the similarities to the USSR won't extend to the point of Stalin's reign having an equivalent.

-As I see it, the only way for the CSA to survive the turn of the century would be to modernize/liberalize to the same overall standards as the West...at which point, it would cease to be the CSA in anything but name only. I'll say again, an independent Southern country appeals to me (given the right POD, I even think it's plausible for it to be a prosperous one), but the Confederacy ain't the way to do it. And after having gotten licked like they did in the First Great War (including the loss of NoVA), I can't see the Confederacy in TL-191 sticking around past the '30s TBH.

No, and honestly, I make more parallels with Communist Cuba or Maoist China - I do plan on having a more authoritarian successor to Albert Parsons in the form of Upton Sinclair, but he never reaches Stalin levels. Lots of forced industrialization, crack downs on religion and other 'counterrevolutionary activity', and population rearangements/exchanges, but no genocide or megolomania. Not on a large scale anyhow.

This is part of the reason when the Reckoning War (TTL Great War) take place at the turn of the century, the CSA gets is ass kicked - only reason the Communsit successor state still has a spot on the map is a combination of the Communist government doing a lot of needed reform, the USA not having Causus Belli to invade, and support from international Communist nations, having been the 'first'.

-That's a shame . The last time I'd really spent time there was summer 2008, having lived in San Antonio since then and visiting the Middle Peninsula/Northern Neck area, or gawdforsaken-NoVA (my ex-wife's family mostly lives up there, at least they're nice folks) in that time. I hear the city of Richmond isn't doing all that bad, but the area around it apparently hasn't been so lucky. Anyway, so it plays a big part in the reunification of Virginia with the Union?

-I think Lee was better as a "big picture" strategic/operational leader, as opposed to a tactician, that was more Jackson's or Early's thing. As sad as such an ending would be for the man, I think your rendition would do him justice as well based on what I've heard. And I can see the CSSA using him as a rallying cry (glossing over his plantation-owning roots and Slavocrat service, of course) against them "bourgouis damnyankees" AND the same Planter-elite class the revolution would've taken out of rotation. BTW you could probably use something like "Tuckahoe" or "Cracker" to stand in for "kulak" in a Red South (i.e. class traitors).

Richmond is doing okay, be reccesion standards, and Glen Allen/Henrico is booming - Hanover though it whithering in the vine, and if we get that double dip, I expect it to go belly up real fast. I-95 and Route 1 are the only things keeping Ashland alive at this point.

As for the role Ashland plays in the story, for the WWI analogue, it serves as a Somme/Stalingrad esque battle, the Union having pushed the lines this far South before the trenches started solidifying, and the CSA pushing this as the major defense of Richmond, especially as Ashland serves as a rail line/supply depot for the capital - with Fredericksberg in Union hands post-Civil War, it is the largest major town between the border and Richmond, something I expect would make Ashland more important strategically.

The other reason I picked it is, as a local of sorts, I am familair with local terrain, so I can plot the battlelines better, allowing for more realsim - trust me, the battle will be a doozy once I finish.

I could see Lee getting set up as a Martyr of sorts - I do need to work on slang terms though. One in particular is Redneck, which is a Union term for a Southern Communist, given the red bandanas used to mark party membership. Let no one say I have no sense of historical irony, given that is the origin of the term OTL

-Agreed on the gun thing. And it seems like spanking the Church as an institution would be a losing battle to be fought by the Commies, but I suppose rules are rules. Although, wouldn't the "gospel" style of music be useful as a homey, feel-good source of "patriotic, proletarian camaraderie"? Or would they use something else?

I imagine that 'gospel' style and sense of community would be quickly re-oriented toward the state and Communism - can you imagine a Baptist style revival centered on patriotism, communism and communisnty, complete with a gospel style chorus of 'The International'?

 

[EnglishCanuck]

Thrilled you think so! I'm humbled by yourt praise my friend!

That inversion is big motivation of me writing it - my goal is that any Confederate Nostalgist will read the books, put them down, and then go out and burn a Confederate flag. If I manage to demonize the CSA half as much as the Lost Causers glorified it, job well done.

Thank Cuāuhtemōc for the art! I wanted it plausible ITTL, yet still recognizably Confederate and Communsit for anyone who glances at it in OTL - I have him some ideas, and boom! He made this marvelous banner!

Oh it's fantastic work, and a worthy goal! Some of the Confederate apologists I read make me cringe, hard. The thought of them being so disgusted by their own state (and since many of them are also die-hard anti-communists) fills my heart with glee!

I've often considered doing a 'Confederates "win" the Civil War' scenario myself, but I'm sincerely interested to see where yours ends up going. The different world it will breed sounds fascinating!

On other notes, Lee would make an excellent anti-bourgousie rallying figure. Considering how whitewashed he gets OTL some redwashing (if you will pardon the pun) seems to be in order here. He dies penniless and alone the forgotten hero who heroically fought to free the south from the Northern Capitalists that attempted to grind the free south into the dust while being an unwilling pawn of the planter state which stymied the truly heroic workers who might have built the Confederacy into a great nation equal to the damnyankees.

The drug laden Cola is a very clever idea, makes for a great cash crop and allows for some nefarious drug running groups to expand.

The politics of North America (and depending on how Britain and Mexico fare after the war) will be interesting to say the least. Depending on where you take it Mexico could be a powder keg of political dissident ideas and communist sympathisers kept under the heel of an American propped up government. It'll be interesting to see where you take the continent!

 

[EnglishCanuck]

As a general question though, does the US exchange territory for time or is it the CSA who does that? And do they occupy Canada like in TL-191?

 

[thekingsguard]

Oh it's fantastic work, and a worthy goal! Some of the Confederate apologists I read make me cringe, hard. The thought of them being so disgusted by their own state (and since many of them are also die-hard anti-communists) fills my heart with glee!

I've often considered doing a 'Confederates "win" the Civil War' scenario myself, but I'm sincerely interested to see where yours ends up going. The different world it will breed sounds fascinating!

You and me both! I amdit though - they makea great motivator!

I'm pleased you're looking forward to this - and it seems like the world I'm building grows every day!

On other notes, Lee would make an excellent anti-bourgousie rallying figure. Considering how whitewashed he gets OTL some redwashing (if you will pardon the pun) seems to be in order here. He dies penniless and alone the forgotten hero who heroically fought to free the south from the Northern Capitalists that attempted to grind the free south into the dust while being an unwilling pawn of the planter state which stymied the truly heroic workers who might have built the Confederacy into a great nation equal to the damnyankees.

The drug laden Cola is a very clever idea, makes for a great cash crop and allows for some nefarious drug running groups to expand.

The politics of North America (and depending on how Britain and Mexico fare after the war) will be interesting to say the least. Depending on where you take it Mexico could be a powder keg of political dissident ideas and communist sympathisers kept under the heel of an American propped up government. It'll be interesting to see where you take the continent!

Redbrushing... I like that and you made one powerful argument for People's Hero Robert E. Lee - I dare say you have quite the skill at redbrushing!

And for a time, drug-laden Cola existed in OTL, don't forget that! Party Cola (still looking for a proper name) is useful for population control, and what's left makes a nifty cash crop - plus, the idea of a Southern, mixed-race Communist narco state just makes me grin.

As for Mexico, it gets off fairly light compared to OTL - Maximillian remains on the throne back in the 1860s thanks to open French support, Confederate troops used to support the regime, and a bloodied US unable to stop it. That said, the US, along with an invasion from a stronger (and US-backed) Greater Republic of Central America puts the Mexicans out of the war early, with light terms - cede the Yucatan up to the ithusmus of Tehuapac to the GRCA, cede Baja California and northern Sonora/Chihuahua to the USA, and become a constitutional monarchy. After the war ends, the Mexican people elect thier first Prime Minister - a man who led US-supported Republican elements by the name of Jose Doroteo Arambula. The Haspbergs remain on the throne to this day, making Mexico the last place on Earth where a Haspberg remains in power.

As a general question though, does the US exchange territory for time or is it the CSA who does that?

It's the CSSA who trades land for time, albiet land that the US had for the most part, already taken from the CSA in the Reckoning War - think of the negotiation as an Ameri-centric version of the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk. Aside from that, once the peace treaty is signed for the Civil War, no land exchanges hands until the start of the Great War.

I admit, I am debating having Kentucky re-succeed from the CSA into the USA again, following the disaster of the Spanish-Confederate War. Depends on plausibility. At the very least, I had an idea for a short story centered on Kentucky during the era - The Hatfields and McCoys fued would have the two families on opposite sides of the border. I may try to drum that up into something of a Yellow Journalist sponsored version of the Pig War.

And do they occupy Canada like in TL-191?

Yes, but I'm trying to make integration more peaceful and plausible than OTL. Canada is one of Britians only losses in the peace discussions, and makes up the USA's one major territorial war gain. The Brits and Canada put up a good fight though - part of the reason the USA accepted the CSSA surrender terms was they wanted to redeploy troops for the Canadian front.

As for the division, a map can be found here, but I will break it down again here:

Canada gets split up three ways:

The first are the portions the British are allowed to keep, Newfoundland Island and Vancouver Island. Both become loyal and firm British colonies, and Vancouver Island enjoys something of a booming economy, thanks to both being Britian's sole possession in the eastern Pacific, and brisk trade with the otherwise American Pacific Coast. In the event of a British decolonization like OTL, these would likely remain loyal to the crown - a pair of larger Bermudas, as it were.

Second, you have the Republic of Quebec, which controls all of modern Quebec and Labrador. Unlike TL-191, it is far from an American puppet state, offered in the Peace Treaty as a comprimise between the USA and Britain over the region, and both nations enjoy brisk trade and friendly influence in the Quebeci Republic. The nation also gets a large influx of French immigrants/refugees, following post-war events I am still planning with France, making Quebec the world's chief Francophone nation and culture.

The rest, as you expect are ceded to the USA, and rather than occupied, are integrated into the US proper rather peacefully, with the Canadian nation divided into a number of states and territories. The division into territories and states - of which, I am quite proud of the borders - has resulted in the states of (from West to East) Columbia, Alberta, Assiniboia, Sasatchewan, Manitoba, Superior (made up of Northern Ontario's southern half), Ontario (consists of Southern Ontario), and Acadia (Nova Scotia, PEI and New Brunswick), as well as the terrirories of Athabasca (which is likely next up for Statehood as of 1942, thanks to an oil boom), Hudson (made up of the rest of Northern Ontario and bits of OTL Manitoba), Yukon (which also includes OTL Alaska north of the Yukon River), MacKenzie (NWT) and Keewatin (OTL Nunavit and bits of OTL Manitoba).

For the most part the assimilation has been peaceful - most of the states I listed above actually got statehood before almost all of the reclaimed Southern states. Thier integration is handled much like that of the bits reclaimed from the CSA, if not a little friendlier in places, where efforts are made to both improve infrastructure and ensure the loyalty of the locals. There is a military prescence, but given mandatory military service is a US institution, it's less of an occupation and more of a garrison.

As a Canadian, any thoughts?

 

[EnglishCanuck]

You and me both! I amdit though - they makea great motivator!

I'm pleased you're looking forward to this - and it seems like the world I'm building grows every day!

That's great to hear! Gotta admit it sounds like it will be a wonderful read!

Redbrushing... I like that and you made one powerful argument for People's Hero Robert E. Lee - I dare say you have quite the skill at redbrushing!

And for a time, drug-laden Cola existed in OTL, don't forget that! Party Cola (still looking for a proper name) is useful for population control, and what's left makes a nifty cash crop - plus, the idea of a Southern, mixed-race Communist narco state just makes me grin.

Feel free to use the term and what can I say, it just comes naturally sometimes (that and I find most communist history to be painfully simplistic at times).

A thought on the Cola, if they use councils in everyday life you could just call it Council Cola, and have it seen as the working mans drink.

It's the CSSA who trades land for time, albiet land that the US had for the most part, already taken from the CSA in the Reckoning War - think of the negotiation as an Ameri-centric version of the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk. Aside from that, once the peace treaty is signed for the Civil War, no land exchanges hands until the start of the Great War.

I admit, I am debating having Kentucky re-succeed from the CSA into the USA again, following the disaster of the Spanish-Confederate War. Depends on plausibility. At the very least, I had an idea for a short story centered on Kentucky during the era - The Hatfields and McCoys fued would have the two families on opposite sides of the border. I may try to drum that up into something of a Yellow Journalist sponsored version of the Pig War.

Hmm, both possibilities are good for story purposes. Though it depends on how you want to make the US react (or how you think they'd react).

For instance a while back I did one of those 'Hispano-Confederate War' ideas, never posted it though It was only made possible by a) Mexican and French support b) the Spanish government being in turmoil at the time and c) the US military still being run by fools who aren't fit to lead a parade (think Pope or McClellan, or worse, Rosencrans!).

So having the US being war broke or simply out of shape right after the war isn't such a bad idea really.

-snip- As a Canadian, any thoughts?

That's actually a really good way to handle it. I always thought the 'indefinite occupied' status Turtledove gave them was lazy, and not to mention a drain on US resources (the number of fragile places where guerillas could hit, then go and hide after is just staggering). The small garrisons he seemed to think could handle it were laughable.

The peaceful integration and statehood strategy is clever, not to mention smart. I like it, and how you've got the states and territories lines up makes perfect sense really, especially with Southern Ontario being seperate from the mostly empty northern bit. Keeping the islands British just makes sense, to far out of the way for the Americans to be concerned about, and to easily held by the British.

Quebec's borders are solid, not to mention well placed which is a nice change from the copy-pasted thing Turtledove did. Having her as a defined independent nation is better than a puppet state, the US is to culturally divided to really try and keep her in line at that stage.

A solid way to divide the continent.