British Argentina

Joseph Solis in Australia

I am presumed also that if British colonize Argentina, the name of Buenos Aires would be renamed as Bel Air to create a British flavor.

The name of Argentine provinces if British colonize Argentina.

in OTL in ATL

Buenos Aires City = Bel Air City

Buenos Aires Province = Bel Air Province

Catamarca Province = Waterloo Province

Chaco Province = still Chaco Province

Chubut Province = Rawson Province

Cordoba Province = Kerry Province

Corrientes Province = North Mesopotamia Province

Entre Rios Province = South Mesopotamia Province

Formosa Province = Pilcomayo Province

Jujuy Province = still Jujuy Province

La Pampa Province = Mason Province

La Rioja Province = Lyons Province

Mendoza Province = O'Higgins Province

Missiones Province = Peron Province

Neuquen Province = Neuken Province

Rio Negro Province = Black River Province

Salta Province = still Salta Province

San Juan Province = Saint John Province

San Luis Province = Reynolds Province

Santa Cruz Province = Plymouth Province

Santa Fe Province = Lynch Province

Santiago del Estero Province = Griffith Province

Tierra del Fuego Province = New Shetland Province

Tucuman Province = Alberdi Province

Islas Malvinas (UK colony, claimed by Argentina) = Falkland Province
 
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Joseph Solis in Australia

This would be the Provinces of Argentina if British had colonized:

British_Argentina_provinces_blank.png
 
juanml82

juanml82

The POD is in 1806 or 1807, while the Independence War begun in 1810 and the Argentinean borders weren't roughly defined until the late 1820s. So, if one of those British invasions to the River Plate are sucessful, there wouldn't be an Argentina or Uruguay. The British would probably hold a strip of land going from Uruguay, Entre Rios, the north half or current days province of Buenos Aires, the southern portions of Santa Fe, Cordoba, San Luis, all of Mendoza and Chile, later expanding south into the Mapuche's lands. In the meantime the Spanish are amassing their forces in the north - probably around Cordoba city or Tucuman (witch was the purpose of Viceroy Sobremonte escape to Cordoba in 1806) while a second force attacks from Paraguay. For the purpose of this thread, that counterattack has to fail. Whether if at least it manages to break the British offensive across the Andes would be an open question.
What remains of the Viceroyalty would probably be reoganized. I guess it would end up being ruled from Paraguay.
The major butterflies begin with the French invasion of Spain and, therefore, the Independence War.
The OTL Argentinean economy before WWII was pretty much British dominated so I don't see it taking a much different path in this ATL. Major differences are the fact that this would be a different country expanding through different lands (basically, the richiest lands only) and, since there isn't a 40 years long civil war, earlier inmigration - probably Irish. But I think the idea that, if the British were in charge this country would have been better is a moot point: The British were pretty much in charge in OTL
 

maverick

Banned
I don't know what's worse...the thread itself, that map, or the Province of Peron with a pod that's 90 years before the birth of that man...no, wait, I know...it's the Bel Air thing...:rolleyes: there are honestly not enough facepalms in this site...

In any case, if the British invade Buenos Aires, those provinces and that layout would certainly not exist...

The rest of the Viceroyalty simply goes back to the Viceroyalty of Peru, a situation the British would accept, not having the resources not the interest to keep going further to the west...
 

Tyr

maverick said:
I don't know what's worse...the thread itself, that map, or the Province of Peron with a pod that's 90 years before the birth of that man...no, wait, I know...it's the Bel Air thing...:rolleyes: there are honestly not enough facepalms in this site...

In any case, if the British invade Buenos Aires, those provinces and that layout would certainly not exist...

The rest of the Viceroyalty simply goes back to the Viceroyalty of Peru, a situation the British would accept, not having the resources not the interest to keep going further to the west...
Click to expand...
Not so much that, its jsut they like having strong, friendly neighbours (mostly for trade)
 
Dan1988

Dan1988

This comes up once in a while, TBH. Fortunately, it doesn't come up as often as certain other topics. :rolleyes:

We can rule out, for starters, a POD in the 1770s and earlier. That would highly border on ASB, unless you change events in Europe to the point where it wouldn't be as recognizable from OTL and make it easier for Britain to gain access to the area. Otherwise, forget about it.

Here's my contribution. In that one, I thought that an 1806 invasion of Buenos Aires (as opposed to the 1807 invasion everyone's assuming) would work in this case, since in this case it was HIGHLY unexpected. However, the trick with this one is to keep everyone happy. This means allowing the porteños to govern by not abolishing the cabildos (the city council) and maybe even (more or less) retaining the Viceroyalty (but to an extent that Argentines can govern it, which would be the total opposite of British colonial policy). It might also mean an earlier need for reinforcements. Westminster might also need to recognize an independent "Argentina" (note the quotation marks). The base part here is this: don't turn Argentina into yet another British colony, because the porteños won't stand for it.
 

Admiral Brown

Joseph Solis in Australia said:
I am presumed also that if British colonize Argentina, the name of Buenos Aires would be renamed as Bel Air to create a British flavor.

The name of Argentine provinces if British colonize Argentina.

in OTL in ATL

Buenos Aires City = Bel Air City

Buenos Aires Province = Bel Air Province

Catamarca Province = Waterloo Province

Chaco Province = still Chaco Province

Chubut Province = Rawson Province

Cordoba Province = Kerry Province

Corrientes Province = North Mesopotamia Province

Entre Rios Province = South Mesopotamia Province

Formosa Province = Pilcomayo Province

Jujuy Province = still Jujuy Province

La Pampa Province = Mason Province

La Rioja Province = Lyons Province

Mendoza Province = O'Higgins Province

Missiones Province = Peron Province

Neuquen Province = Neuken Province

Rio Negro Province = Black River Province

Salta Province = still Salta Province

San Juan Province = Saint John Province

San Luis Province = Reynolds Province

Santa Cruz Province = Plymouth Province

Santa Fe Province = Lynch Province

Santiago del Estero Province = Griffith Province

Tierra del Fuego Province = New Shetland Province

Tucuman Province = Alberdi Province

Islas Malvinas (UK colony, claimed by Argentina) = Falkland Province
Click to expand...


Argentina had only 14 provinces in 1853, when the Constitution was signed (actually, Buenos Aires didn't sign it then, but in 1860). All, Patagonia, the Chaco region, and most of the Pampean region were Indian lands, nominally claimed by Argentina. These territories were only defintively incorporated into Argentina much later (let's say, around 1880). Some of these lands were asigned to existing states (Buenos aires, Mendoza, Cordoba, Santa Fe, Salta, Santiago del Estero.) Others were divided in national territories, whose governors were chosen by the national government. Eventually, around 1950, all this national territories were made provinces. The last one was Tierra del Fuego, which was made a province in 1991.

Misiones was incorporated after the Triple alliance war (1865-1870), made a national territory and provincialized in 1953. I'd rather don't name it Peron (1895-1974), unless you want maverick to be angry;):p

So, seriously, the possibility of the country having this internal divission which a Pod in 1806/1807 is ASB.

Even the 14 "original" provinces didn't exist as such in 1806/7. They were formed after the may revolution of 1810, during the decades of 1810 and 1820, as the division of larger entities. In 1806/1807, most of what's now "Argentina" was divided in three intendencias: Intendencia de Buenos Aires, Intendencia de Cordoba del Tucumán and Intendencia de Salta del Tucumán. These thre intendencias, along with the Gobernación de Montevideo (OTL Uruguay + southern Brazil), the Gobernación de las Misiones (OTL Misiones + parts of Paraguay + parts of Brazil), the Gobernación de Chiquitos (OTL Formosa, western Paraguay and Eastern Bolivia), the Intendencia de Potosí (OTL northern Chile and Southern Bolivia), the Intendencia de Charcas (part of Bolivia), the Intendencia de La Paz (part of Bolivia) and the Intendencia de Cochabamba (part of Bolivia) they formed the Vicerroyalty of Rio de la Plata. Patagonia belonged to the Intendencia de Buenos Aires (or to the Capitanía General de Chile, according to Chilenean historians); but, as I said ababed, it was almost entirely a land free of European settlers.
 

Admiral Brown

Concerning the population in 1806/07 (and thus, the possibility of predicting what might have happened in this respect had the British occupied Buenos Aires and/or "Argentina" in 1806), this is what I've found. I hope it's usefull:


The figures are for 1819. They should have been lower in 1806/7 (unless the deaths caused by the independence wars had compensated the population growth, which I found unlikely)

- the province of Buenos Aires had 125000 inhabitants
- the province of Cordoba had 75.000
- the province of Santiago del Estero had 60.000
- the North West (provinces of Salta (+Jujuy), Tucumán, Catamarca and La Rioja) had 220.000
- Santa Fe+ Entre Ríos+Corrientes+Misiones had 85000
- Cuyo (Mendoza+San Juan+San Luis) had 88000 inhabitants

Total: 653.000 (in 1819). These included (in 1806/7): Spanish, people of Spanish descent, "Christianized" Indians, Blacks, mestizos, mulatos and foreigners (Italian, Portuguese, French, English, etc.). The proportion of each group varied from region to region. Probably there were more foreigners in the city of Buenos Aires than in La Rioja, and more mestizos in Santiago del Estero than in Bueno Aires.

This is an estimate of course, taken from Floria y Garcia Belsunce, Historia de los Argentinos. It doesn't count the independent Amerindian population living in the pampas, patagonia and the Chaco region. However, since these groups were nomad hunters, their population was very low. I don't have any figure but I'd say that 40.000 for both Patagonia & the pampas and Chaco is NOT a conservative estimate for 1819 (I may be wrong, of course).

Buenos Aires was the biggest city. Cordoba had rivaled Buenos Aires until around 1750, but had been surpassed by it. It encomparsed most of the population of the province. Except in the North west, most of the population tended to concentrate in cities. the countryside was left to the gauchos or (in the Pampas, Patagonia and Chaco) to the Indians.

The conclusions are up to you. Just remember that population density varied a lot. Compared to Europe, it wasn't densly poplulated anywhere, but it was probably more densly populated in what's now Tucuman than in what's now the province of La Pampa. Remember also that Britain doesn't need to capture all of what's now Argentina. As Juanml82 has said, it' much logical for her to obtain Uruguay and live the North-west away. This would change the population base the colony has at the start.

EDIT: I think I read somewhere that the city of Buenos Aires had 40000 people in 1806, but I don't know where.
 
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Joseph Solis in Australia

This is my revised British Argentina map with provinces:

# in OTL in ATL

1. Buenos Aires City = Bel Air City

2. Buenos Aires Province = Bel Air Province

3. Catamarca Province = Waterloo Province

4. Chaco Province = still Chaco Province

5. Chubut Province = Rawson Province

6. Cordoba Province = Kerry Province

7. Corrientes Province = North Mesopotamia Province

8. Entre Rios Province = South Mesopotamia Province

9. Formosa Province = Pilcomayo Province

10. Jujuy Province = still Jujuy Province

11. La Pampa Province = Mason Province

12. La Rioja Province = Lyons Province

13. Mendoza Province = O'Higgins Province

14. Missiones Province = Iguazu Province

15. Neuquen Province = Neuken Province

16. Rio Negro Province = Black River Province

17. Salta Province = still Salta Province

18. San Juan Province = Saint John Province

19. San Luis Province = Reynolds Province

20. Santa Cruz Province = Plymouth Province

21. Santa Fe Province = Lynch Province

22. Santiago del Estero Province = Griffith Province

23. Tierra del Fuego Province = New Shetland Province

24. Tucuman Province = Alberdi Province

25. Islas Malvinas (UK colony, claimed by Argentina) = Falkland Province

Note: This ATL map is similar to britishargentina.com version

Argentine map.png
 

Dathi THorfinnsson

I really doubt that such wholesale renaming would happen. Some, yes. But, for instance, Montreal is still montreal and not Mount Royal. The areas that became majority Anglo, yes they'd be renamed, but Buenos Aires would surely keep its name.

Compare California, how many San-X names survive? Sure, you get Oakland, Redwood City and Berkeley, but you have also have San Francisco, Alameda, San Mateo, San Jose, Marin County, etc., etc.
 

maverick

Banned
Why are we even in this thread? he's not paying attention anymore...damn newbs with the attention spans of fruit flies...

Anyhow, this is how the place looked like around 1807...

Of course, if we have to explain what the Butterfly effect, or what realism constitutes in a AH scenario to this kid, I don't know why I even bother...

Virreinato.png
 
perfectgeneral

perfectgeneral

Donor
Monthly Donor
I think Britain wouldn't want more than Tierra del Fuego and Buenos Aires Province. One for the passage to the Pacific and the other as a major trade port.
 

Superftagn

Wouldn't this give Britain control of the primary source of grain in all of Latin America?

Controlling that grain could be wielded to influence policy in independent Latin American countries, or simply let those countries rot by diverting the flow mostly to the empire/commonwealth, buying it at prices they themselves set.

And isn't there oil down in that part of the world?
 
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