Bayonets Won't Cut Coal: The Socialist Republic of Britain

Hmmm

Im curious how you plan to handle Northern Ireland in a socialist Britain?
The Unionists are arch conservatives and well armed. And the Nationalists at this stage wouldnt accept a socialist agenda either. And the relationship with the Free State will be bad enough if Britain goes Red, let alone repressing the North. (Even with the Unionists bizarrely with Dev would sour things).
And its going to taken military force to get NI to follow a truly socialist line.
 
Im curious how you plan to handle Northern Ireland in a socialist Britain?
The Unionists are arch conservatives and well armed. And the Nationalists at this stage wouldnt accept a socialist agenda either. And the relationship with the Free State will be bad enough if Britain goes Red, let alone repressing the North. (Even with the Unionists bizarrely with Dev would sour things).
And its going to taken military force to get NI to follow a truly socialist line.

Yeah, I can imagine it'd be quite a mess. At least the conservative Catholics and Protestants might be able to actually agree with one another for once: they probably would both detest the "Commies" to some degree I'd think.
 
Hmmm

Its not even a matter of detest. Its a matter of capacity. In the UK the NI has the capacity and the will to resist a "Red" government. Religion easily trumps "class" in Ireland. Both North & South.
You can say many things about the Unionists of that time but cowardice was never one of their vices. They make Tory's look like Liberals and socialism would be one think they fear as much or even more than a united Ireland. Resistance to me seems unavoidable in the TL thats shaping up.
 
This is a great TL.:):D I completely agree with other posters opionions on Ireland`s reaction to a Socialist Britian. However the Nationalist might think that England`s difficulty is Ireland`s oportunity and try to take some advantage but they won`t like the socialists.
 
hmmm

Ireland having "opportunity" attacks is close to ASB, de Valera's commitment to a United Ireland is tempered by internal politics, same for Cumman na Gaedhall at the time, no one will risk what they've got to fight Britain who are militarily too strong over a pipedream.
Irelands relationship with the Royals for example is quite odd, the government oscalitaes between affection and detestation. If Britain became a socialist Republic for example Dev would likely welcome them in to piss off a British. ;)
My concern is any military move against the North communities could provoke a response within the Free State. People forget the government sent Fire Brigade units when Belfast was bombed. Dev doesnt like the Unionists but he considers them "his" people by extension.
 
Thanks for reading everyone! I really appreciate your comments, questions and feedback :)

e350tb said:
So, the government is going to deploy a auxiliary unit which includes Black and Tans veterans against strikers?

This will most certainly end well.
Hi e350tb. It will certainly add fuel to the fire - as both the government and the unions are now committed doing whatever it takes to win.

theirishdreamer said:
Black and Tans vs unarmed workers. This wont be pretty.

The biggest problem the British had with the Auxies & the Black & Tans was they just couldnt control them period. The B&T's especially had little discipline when confronted with "treason" and once let loose were near impossible to pull in.
Look at the Cork and the killing of the lord mayor and town burnings.

Your turning those people loose on the British mainland against "Red traitors".
So what town's getting burned down?
That's how many in the government view the strikers - as red traitors and deserving no quarter. As you can imagine things don't end well.

jeff said:
I'm so subscribed.
Thanks for reading jeff :)

Jape said:
Red Clydeside going up in smoke then?
The ramifications of letting loose the Auxies is certainly adding fuel to the fire - of course the likes of Churchill would argue that the fire was lit by the strikers and merely giving them a taste of their own medicine.

GiantMonkeyMan said:
It doesn't take much convincing to realise the TUC is a damp squib.

Excellent timeline! Looking forward to the inevitable revolution.
Thanks GiantMonkeyMan. :) Many within the movement didn't think to highly of the TUC (or at least some of its leadership) and these issues may will emerge after the revolution.

Hrvatskiwi said:
I'm by no means an expert on British politics or anything to do with Britain, but this is SO...FUCKING...COOL. I wait with excitement for the next installment.
Thanks Hrvatskiwi! And the next chapter is just moments from being posted. :)

pipisme said:
Thank you for your answers to my questions.

As regards Liberal reunion after the 1922 general election the chapter headed The Elusive Goal: Attempts at Liberal Reunion in the book The Age of Alignment: Electoral Politics in Britain 1922-1929 by Chris Cook, deals with period from after the election to September 1923. Here is a summary of that chapter. "n both wings of the party, there was a general and genuine desire for reunion". In the winter of 1922/23 and the spring of 1923 there were various unsuccessful initiatives for reunion. "There can be little doubt that - for whatever underlying reasons - Lloyd George wanted reunion (and reunion quickly) whilst Asquith was adopting a largely negative approach." National Liberal reconciliation initiatives throughout the spring and early summer of 1923 were "summarily brought to a halt."

"In July 1923, Lloyd George was once again - having despaired of Liberal reunion - refusing to abandon his contacts with the Conservatives. [...] Lloyd George was still refusing to declare outright against the government or to exclude completely the possibility of a new coalition. [...] With the months of August and September relatively empty of political activity, the position regarding reunion remained unchanged." However there were increasing moves towards reunion at the local level.


In this TL was Neville Chamberlain in Austen Chamberlain's and/or Joynson-Hicks cabinet, and if he was in which position?

Was the Locarno Pact signed in this TL as in OTL?


Hi pipisme. Thanks for that information about the Liberal reunion, much appreciated.

Yes Neville Chamberlain is a member of both the Austen and Jix cabinets, and yes he is the Minister for Health at the present time in the T/L.

As for the Locarno Pact, it will not be signed in this T/L. As coming chapters will demonstrate, things will change dramatically in Britain and Europe in 1925.

Blackadder mk2 said:
I'm guessing that Neville is Health Minister ITTL as he was under Law and Baldwin after refusing the Chancellorship IOTL.
Hi Blackadder mk2. Neville's currently Health Minister, and will come to play an important role in coming events. :)

theirishdreamer said:
Im curious how you plan to handle Northern Ireland in a socialist Britain?
The Unionists are arch conservatives and well armed. And the Nationalists at this stage wouldnt accept a socialist agenda either. And the relationship with the Free State will be bad enough if Britain goes Red, let alone repressing the North. (Even with the Unionists bizarrely with Dev would sour things).
And its going to taken military force to get NI to follow a truly socialist line.

CaliBoy1990 said:
Yeah, I can imagine it'd be quite a mess. At least the conservative Catholics and Protestants might be able to actually agree with one another for once: they probably would both detest the "Commies" to some degree I'd think.

theirishdreamer said:
Its not even a matter of detest. Its a matter of capacity. In the UK the NI has the capacity and the will to resist a "Red" government. Religion easily trumps "class" in Ireland. Both North & South.
You can say many things about the Unionists of that time but cowardice was never one of their vices. They make Tory's look like Liberals and socialism would be one think they fear as much or even more than a united Ireland. Resistance to me seems unavoidable in the TL thats shaping up.

stirlingdraka said:
This is a great TL :) :D. I completely agree with other posters opionions on Ireland`s reaction to a Socialist Britian. However the Nationalist might think that England`s difficulty is Ireland`s oportunity and try to take some advantage but they won`t like the socialists.

theirishdreamer said:
Ireland having "opportunity" attacks is close to ASB, de Valera's commitment to a United Ireland is tempered by internal politics, same for Cumman na Gaedhall at the time, no one will risk what they've got to fight Britain who are militarily too strong over a pipedream.
Irelands relationship with the Royals for example is quite odd, the government oscalitaes between affection and detestation. If Britain became a socialist Republic for example Dev would likely welcome them in to piss off a British.
My concern is any military move against the North communities could provoke a response within the Free State. People forget the government sent Fire Brigade units when Belfast was bombed. Dev doesn't like the Unionists but he considers them "his" people by extension.

Thanks for the comments guys. I've done a lot of thinking about the situation in both the north and the south of Ireland. I haven't focused on it in the T/L so far, but it will be covered in detail in an upcoming chapter (so I don't want to give away too much away at this stage.) What I can say however is that the revolution won't spread to Northern Ireland, but there will still be significant troubles in Ireland.

eliphas8 said:
Oh my god this is awesome.

Thanks very much eliphas8, there's more to come very soon! :)
 
Book I - Fading Glory and Class Wars: The Rise of Socialist Britain

Chapter IV

The Establishment's Last Stand, Part II

The end of the Triple Alliance strike was generally seen by both sides as a temporary lull and a period of consolidation and reorganisation. As the workers returned slowly to work, their leaders continued the clandestine planning. Cook, through the NACLM began preparing for the next General Strike. It was also during this time that his true revolutionary zeal emerged with great gusto, as he established dozens of Local Action Committees (LAC) that answered to the NACLM and oversaw planning and management of strike activity in their respective districts. The responsibilities of these committees ranged from providing tea and sandwiches to strikers, to stockpiling medical supplies and organising ambulances for the injured.

As spring turned to summer, the preparations on both sides reached their apex. It also saw a change in the Labour leadership. J.R. Clynes, who had been parliamentary leader since 1921, faced a radically different situation four years later. Out of touch with the rapid developments and the deteriorating situation, he was faced with multiple angles of criticism which battered him into stepping down. The short, sharp and bitter leadership campaign saw Arthur Henderson edge out Ramsay MacDonald as leader of the parliamentary Labour Party. He faced the daunting task of trying to juggle party discipline, the strikes and growing radicalism within the party.

Morale in the ranks of the army was low, and many ordinary soldiers had sympathy for the strikers, even if they dared not show it. Thanks to informers as well as information gleaned from Auxie raids and vigorous, often violent interrogations of local union officials and LAC members, the Government began to form a clear picture of the next strike action scheduled for July. Churchill, whose concern was growing by the day, mooted recalling army units from overseas garrisons to boost the number of troops available in Britain. This was flatly rejected by the Earl of Cavan, to the point of threatening resignation along with the rest of the Imperial General Staff. With the morale of British based forces being sapped, insubordination rising and widespread grumbling, the army leadership didn’t want to expose more of their forces to this cancer than they needed to. The admirals also reported that morale was low beneath decks in ships stationed in British ports, as seaman took the opportunity to air longstanding gripes about poor pay and conditions. It was decided that all military units within Britain at the time would be ‘quarantined’ from the rest of the Empire.

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Smiling for the news camera, their grins belie the grim task of subduing their fellow countrymen.

With the situation increasingly grim, Churchill, with approval from Jix and the Cabinet, began implementing an emergency plan for the worst case scenario. Officials in the Department of Supply began compiling what quickly became known as the Doomsday Book. This was a highly secret record of the location and status of national treasures, artworks, government records, the gold reserves of the Bank of England and lists of important and essential public people (such as senior civil servants) that would need to be mobilised and evacuated to safe areas in the event of extreme civil disorder . Work also began on the second part of the emergency plan. Nicknamed the Doomsday Plan, it outlined the possible plans to evacuate the contents and people in the Doomsday Book to France and Canada. However it remained purely theoretical and was little more than a napkin exercise given the more immediate and real priorities of the looming General Strike. But Churchill wanted to be ready in case things deteriorated further.

The original plan put forth by Cook was for the General Strike called for it to begin on the 13 July 1925. This was interrupted however when the Auxies raided the headquarters of the Communist Party of Great Britain (CPGB) in London and arrested a number of its key leaders. For Cook this was a setback, but not an insurmountable one. The raids were marked by unrestrained violence. Unlike the police, the Auxies showed little restraint and were more than willing to give out beatings before handing their prisoners over to the police. Many of the Communists arrested were charged in the local police station and then taken to hospital to treat their injuries. Although most of the senior officials escaped these rough-house tactics, it was nevertheless a prelude to what was to come. Cook convened an emergency session of the NACLM, which decided to alter plans and reassign responsibilities, particularly as a number of LACs were severely disrupted and the Daily Worker newspaper forced underground by the arrest of the Communists.

A week later on the morning of Monday 20 July, the largest industrial strike and protests that Britain has ever seen began. Industry, all forms of transport and the docks were the worst affected with many other industries coming out in support thanks to the efforts of Cook and the NACLM. Jix and the Cabinet took this as their moment to break the unions once and for all. Despite some moderates on both sides calling for cooler heads, neither the unions nor the Government were in a mood for compromise at this late stage.

The country came to a total standstill. The first day was a relatively quiet one, as the Government’s comprehensive contingency plans, coordinated by the Department of Supply, stirred into action. A State of Emergency was once again declared if only for legal, rather than practical considerations. Jix saw that Britain was at war and the preceding calm since the April strikes had little more than a temporary break in hostilities much like the Peace of Amiens. All police were summoned to duty and leave was cancelled. The Civil Guard was mobilised to man their local posts. Army units were mobilised to begin convoying in essential supplies and Royal Engineers from the Railway Operating Division (ROD) started manning the rail system.

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Female civilian volunteers helping the Railway Operating Division of the Royal Engineers.

In a sign of things to come, the first raids by the Auxies began in the most strike prone and radical areas of the country. In the Rhondda Valley they began grabbing local unionists from their homes, beating and then arresting them, dumping them at the local police stations. In the early hours of Tuesday 21 July, a group of Auxies raided a pub in Birkenhead after a tip off that three local union officials were planning ‘revolutionary activities’ there. The Auxies grabbed the union men, dragged them into their car, blindfolded them, motored to the sea besides the Wallasey Golf Course in Wirral and then shot them, after a brief ‘trial’. This was not the only incident over the coming days where members of the Auxies dished out summary punishments. Although it’s doubtful these actions were official sanctioned, rumours spread like wildfire amongst the ranks of the strikers. There would likely had been more outrage amongst the wider public had the newspapers and wireless services not been severely disrupted by the strike action.

On Tuesday 21 July, London became the focus of the protests and strikes. Cook travelled to London overnight and the following morning addressed a crowd of 100,000 people at the Empire Stadium in the Wembley Empire Exhibition grounds. The thronging masses were surrounded by the products of the Empire, a fitting motif that Cook utilised to great effect. Cook bellowed that the Palace of Industry would soon be controlled by the workers, whose sweat and labour had built it. That the Palace of Engineering would be used to engineer a new, workers society, and the decadent Palace of the Arts would be torn down and replaced with a Palace for the People. Built up to near ecstasy, the crowed buzzed with excitement and revolutionary fervour. After his speech Cook at the head of the crowd, led the banner waving, cheering masses from Wembley to Hyde Park, snaking its way for six miles, down Harrow Road, past Paddington Station and into Hyde Park, watched with eagle eyes by the police. Meanwhile, James Maxton, the other great figure of the moment, spoke before 40,000 crammed into Trafalgar Square. When he finished, like Moses leading his people to Mount Horeb, he led the crowd, in a carnival like atmosphere down The Mall, past the heavily guarded Buckingham Palace, along Constitution Hill to Hyde Park where Maxton and Cook greeted each other like old friends on top of an elevated stage. Both men read from their manifesto to the swelling crowds under the mid-afternoon sun. As children played in the glorious sunshine and ran between their parents legs, or sat atop their shoulders, the People’s prophets, Cook and Maxton, called for the crowd to prepare for the rapturous revolution that was surely about to come.

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Cook making an impassioned speech in London.

Although relatively peaceful, that evening word reached Cook in London about the increasingly violent actions by the Auxies across the country. Cook was apoplectic and together with Maxton decided to escalate the violence, seeing no other choice. “They have us against the wall,” he told Maxton, “we have to show them we won’t take this outrageous abuse any longer.” Although limited in the amount of direct contact outside of London, messengers and wherever available telephones were used to contact the LACs within the South East overnight. The following days would see violence and terror unlike anything since the Chartists or even the Jacobites of centuries past. Thanks to informers and Auxie infiltrators within the unions, the Government got wind of some of the messages and began digging in for the coming storm. Initially the Government didn’t move against the strikers themselves. Although it had been forced underground, the Auxies found the printing presses of the Daily Worker and set the building on fire after forcefully dragging the Communists out kicking and screaming. The union movement’s own paper, the Strikers News Sheet was also raided and the presses closed by the police. On Wednesday, London was the scene of severe rioting with buses and trams set alight, throwing stones at police and trying to interrupt supply convoys driven by the army which devolved into melees between the army escorts and the rioters.

Churchill diverted more army, police and Auxies into the capital overnight on special military trains run by the ROD and informed nervous local Civil Guard officers that they would be required for riot control duties in the following days. On Thursday 23 July, as the violence escalated in the capital and the spread to other major cities and the industrial heartlands of Britain, it wasn’t long before the first death was recorded in the streets of London. As mounted police charged strikers to clear the streets, the army stood by, only wanting to get involved as a last resort. Despite the reserve that the army showed, the Auxie units in the city entered the fray with gusto, relishing the opportunity to bash some heads with the butts of their rifles. The strikers fought back just as fiercely with pick handles, shovels or stones picked from the streets. In the swirling melee, hundreds from both sides were badly injured – with a number subsequently dying from their injuries. In a nasty incident on the Victoria Embankment outside Somerset House, wild eyed Auxies fired randomly into the crowd with rifles and revolvers causing many grievous injuries into the scattering crowds. Worse was to come when the Belgravia police station was set alight and the Civil Guard armoury that was inside was partially looted before the structure was engulfed in flames. With the situation deteriorating rapidly and facing an armed enemy, the army sprang into action. It was fortunate that the soldiers were from the Coldstream Guards and despite taking a number of casualties from sporadic rifle and revolver fire, their superior marksmanship and fortitude killed or subdued the strikers for long enough to allow the police to move in an arrest those still alive and recover most of the looted weapons. With fire fighting services depleted by strikes, high absenteeism or unable to move through the crowded streets the police station and armoury burned throughout the night, with rifle ammunition continuing to explode from the heat until the next morning.

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British army soldiers before the firing breaks out at Belgravia police station.

That evening, following advice from Jix and Churchill, the King, his wife and the Prince of Wales were placed on a special military train to Windsor Castle out of fears for their security. The capital was no longer safe. In the following days, other members of the immediate family, including the Princess Royal, her husband and young sons, Prince Albert and his wife Elizabeth, Prince Henry and Prince George joined the King at Windsor. Churchill also activated the Doomsday Plan, and under the cover of darkness that night, specially selected army units under the supervision of the Department of Supply began moving valuable artworks from Royal residences and museums, along with a sizeable portion of the Bank of England’s gold and cash reserves. These valuables were moved to Dover, where they were stored in large, heavily guarded warehouses for safekeeping. If need be, these valuables could be quickly ferried across to France.

Jix also ordered the mobilisation of the Royal Tank Regiment in its London depots and soon the clatter of metal tracks was heard on the streets of London as tanks were moved into key positions. Churchill also reacted hastily by giving official instructions for the Auxies to take whatever means necessary to get the situation under control. The more unscrupulous members took this as a sign that they could be judge, jury and executioner. On Friday 24 July, London awoke the smell of acrid smoke and rifle fire as units of Auxies and striking workers exchanged fire and brawled, with strikers seizing more weapons from withdrawing Civil Guards or beaten Auxies.

Army units, unaware of Churchill’s orders, which had not come through their own chain of command, tried to reign in the members of the rampaging Auxie who had opened fire on the strikers. This distraction did give time for the strikers to regroup and stretcher their injured to waiting union ambulances. Up north in Liverpool, further disorder broke out when local units of Civil Guards fired warning shots above striker’s heads, successfully dispersing them. The Civil Guard then began looting nearby businesses and getting drunk on looted beer. The army did eventually restore order, and that night the Liverpool Civil Guards were stripped of their firearms and sent home. Disturbingly for Churchill and the Government were the reports of insubordination and communication breakdowns in the Auxies and that Civil Guard members were fraternising with the strikers and even joining them on the picket lines in the less volatile parts of the country.

By nightfall, the situation had calmed down and both sides paused to regroup. The following day, London remained quiet as both sides wearily watched each other, the only exception being a large march from Trades Union Congress on Russell Street to Trafalgar Square and then down to the front of the now empty, though still heavily guarded Buckingham Palace. Despite being relatively peaceful, large crowds were shepherded by a heavy police and the regular army presence. Many figures made impassioned speeches before the crowd including Maxton, Cook, J.H Thomas, Herbert Smith and Manny Shinwall. Yet in other parts of the country, the police and the army continued to break the strikes and protect scab workers who defied the unions. The army, police, Auxies and Civil Guard continued to bring in essential supplies and operate key infrastructure along with thousands of middle class volunteers.

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James Maxton rallying supporters in London.

The initial mayhem has passed but the country remained totally paralysed for another week despite the efforts of volunteers and the authorities to keep key infrastructure operating. Sporadic fighting continued around the country, although nothing on the scale seen on London. Strikers clashes with police and the army. The army drove bread trucks into the city and town centres distributing food from a ring of bayonets. People scavenged for coal on the slag heaps in South Wales. Militants derailed a military train outside York. Ambushes and counter ambushes were mounted between roving bands of strikers and mobile patrols of Auxies across the north of the country. The police didn’t bother reading the Riot Act before they charged and the Civil Guard’s fired into crowds rather than into the air. Britain was on the brink and under siege from within, but it was neither Jix nor Cook that blinked, but the moderates within the Conservative Party.

On what was the fourteenth day of the bloody general strike, the Conservative Party could take no more. Through a series of secret communiques, moderate Tories met with moderate Labour and Liberal members to seek a resolution to the General Strike and form a coalition government of national unity. Despite the outward aims of the strike being about wages and conditions, Cook and Maxton as its leading figures had been increasingly calling for wholesale changes to the British state. The moderate Conservatives hoped to work with the Labour Party to seek compromise with the more moderate union leaders and weaken their resolve to fight alongside the radicals. The moderate Conservatives included Edward F.L. Wood, Victor Cavendish the 9th Duke of Devonshire and many young backbenchers like Anthony Eden. The Conservative Party was on the verge of splitting as Jix seemed unable to find a resolution to the crisis and was becoming increasingly political isolated. The Labour leader, Arthur Henderson, demanded that any coalition be headed by the Labour Party which was now the single largest party in Parliament. The Liberals were inclined to agree with this, despite Tory ranglings to have one their own remain as Prime Minister and the ever scheming Lloyd George. With little choice, the moderate Conservatives began ratting their own Prime Minister out, demanding that he either resign or face a vote of no confidence as soon as an emergency session of parliament could be organised.

Jix was shattered by the betrayal by his party of him and the country. In later years, he would say that had they held their nerve, then perhaps the revolution could have been avoided. Jix formally handed his resignation to the King on Saturday 1 August 1925 bringing an end to his turbulent premiership. Despite retaining the support of most of his cabinet and the small hard line elements of his back bench, the Conservative Party was totally split. The rebels Tories called themselves the National Unity Conservative Party (NUCP) and were loosely led by Neville Chamberlain, Sir Austen’s half-brother and spiritual heir of the moderate Tory faction.

On the morning of Monday 3 August (having negotiated a temporary truce one day truce for church services), Labour's Arthur Henderson, NUCP leader Neville Chamberlain and H. H. Asquith, leader of the recently reunited Liberals, motored to Windsor Castle. The King, who despite his displeasure at the course of events, nevertheless asked Henderson to form a government on the condition that the strikes be resolved as quickly as possible and an election called immediately afterwards. Henderson, through negotiations with the Liberals and NUCP, was able to guarantee that he would have a workable parliamentary majority. He then began the arduous task of desperately trying to pull Britain back from the brink.
 
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Hmmm

Its a very good timeline and trend towards a "Red" government is logical and consistent with OTL events and how timing could have effected things. And i look forward to the interactions with Ireland both North & South and with US in upcoming chapters. :D

I was mainly interested because several otherwise good timelines have the weird habit of ignoring Northern Ireland as part of Britain and the effects Ireland/England/Scotland play off each other in the 20th century. From a point of view the difference between parties such as the Tory's and the Irish parties is merely mirror images, the difference lies not in idealolgy but in relation of Ireland itself. Replacing Churchill with de Valera or vica versa for example you'd have likely gotten the same actions politically on either side for their affliated grouping.

The socialists though are a very different grouping than any of the Irish political landscape (though Irish body politic will know a great deal about events through Irish Labour) Irish Labour though would be significantly to the right of its mainland cousins, though oddly in 20's and 30's the political links would still be there to moderates on the UK leftist movement.

In the event of a civil war within Britain which side a Free State government would (covertly) support is quite clear, the level depending on the timeline itself and whos in government with the Free State. Oddly the proto-Fine Gael government would be likely to give less support than proto-Fianna Fail ones though there more British leaning in temperment than FF (Sinn Fein till late 20s). This would be more to the nature of the leaderships of the parties rather than party motivations. Dev was for idealogy but was all for calculated risks and bending definitons to achive his goals, while the FG leadership were more conservative in government and leadership styles, which is largely why FF over took them politically at the time.

Irelands actions from the late 20's on were active attempts to change the linkage between the nations rather than completely sever it as a minority would want, and OTL took till the 40's to occur. My personal view, or concern maybe, would be the Free State government would militarily back a rump Northern Ireland if it came to it, too much pressure if Unionists started looking for support from the south. The 20's and early 30's are before a United Ireland got schelved (still a talking point though) entirely for internal party politics, and youve mentioned NI wouldnt turn Red which leads to interesting reasons why it doesnt turn. :cool:
 
"and the decadent Palace of the Arts would be torn down and replaced with a Palace for the People"

Uh oh.

When they start using the term "decadent art" it's rarely an indicator of anything good about the person.

Bruce
 
Bump because its filling the same niche for me as Reds does and it needs to be more talked about.

Also whats going on in the rest of the world right now ITTL? I'm sure the UK going into an absolute crisis would have some effect on the rest of the worlds politics?

By the way, whats going on in the rest of the empire? Is there any chance of an Indian uprising in the face of British weakness? Any idea what happens to Orwell ITTL?
 
Good update. How far are you planning on taking this?

I have a hunch that the Dominions are going to be divided over the developments in Britain, and, that if World War II comes in this TL, Canada and Australia will be on opposite sides.
 
theirishdreamer said:
Its a very good timeline and trend towards a "Red" government is logical and consistent with OTL events and how timing could have effected things. And i look forward to the interactions with Ireland both North & South and with US in upcoming chapters.

I was mainly interested because several otherwise good timelines have the weird habit of ignoring Northern Ireland as part of Britain and the effects Ireland/England/Scotland play off each other in the 20th century. From a point of view the difference between parties such as the Tory's and the Irish parties is merely mirror images, the difference lies not in idealolgy but in relation of Ireland itself. Replacing Churchill with de Valera or vica versa for example you'd have likely gotten the same actions politically on either side for their affliated grouping.

The socialists though are a very different grouping than any of the Irish political landscape (though Irish body politic will know a great deal about events through Irish Labour) Irish Labour though would be significantly to the right of its mainland cousins, though oddly in 20's and 30's the political links would still be there to moderates on the UK leftist movement.

In the event of a civil war within Britain which side a Free State government would (covertly) support is quite clear, the level depending on the timeline itself and whos in government with the Free State. Oddly the proto-Fine Gael government would be likely to give less support than proto-Fianna Fail ones though there more British leaning in temperment than FF (Sinn Fein till late 20s). This would be more to the nature of the leaderships of the parties rather than party motivations. Dev was for idealogy but was all for calculated risks and bending definitons to achive his goals, while the FG leadership were more conservative in government and leadership styles, which is largely why FF over took them politically at the time.

Irelands actions from the late 20's on were active attempts to change the linkage between the nations rather than completely sever it as a minority would want, and OTL took till the 40's to occur. My personal view, or concern maybe, would be the Free State government would militarily back a rump Northern Ireland if it came to it, too much pressure if Unionists started looking for support from the south. The 20's and early 30's are before a United Ireland got schelved (still a talking point though) entirely for internal party politics, and youve mentioned NI wouldnt turn Red which leads to interesting reasons why it doesnt turn.
Thanks for the comment theirishdreamer. Yes I’ve also noted that many timelines ignore Northern Ireland. I have a big interest in the history of the province particularly at this time. The dynamics of not just the politics but the society of Northern Ireland as a whole are often oversimplified or overlooked. Carson and Craig, such towering figures of the period, will feature prominently in thes timeline. Whilst Craig may have seen Northern Ireland as being in a state of siege OTL since its creation, the collapse of the United Kingdom in this timeline means the very existence of Northern Ireland is under threat.

As for the situation in Southern Ireland, that raises fundamental issues for the Irish state. For instance, to seize the opportunity to declare a republic or even attempt to reunify Ireland. However, without giving too much away events in both the North and South of Ireland will be covered in an upcoming chapter soon.

Ptolemy IV said:
Great update! Things are really getting interesting now
Thanks Ptolemy IV. :) This is only the tip of the iceberg of interesting stuff coming up!

B Munro said:
"and the decadent Palace of the Arts would be torn down and replaced with a Palace for the People"
Uh oh.
When they start using the term "decadent art" it's rarely an indicator of anything good about the person.
Bruce
Thanks for reading Bruce. Perhaps it’s a sign of things to come. ;)

eliphas8 said:
Bump because its filling the same niche for me as Reds does and it needs to be more talked about.
Also whats going on in the rest of the world right now ITTL? I'm sure the UK going into an absolute crisis would have some effect on the rest of the worlds politics?
By the way, whats going on in the rest of the empire? Is there any chance of an Indian uprising in the face of British weakness? Any idea what happens to Orwell ITTL?
Thanks eliphas8! :) As for what’s going on in the rest of the world, up until now things have been pretty much as per OTL. However, following the revolution in Britain things will change dramatically in many parts of the world. This will be covered in detail in the near future. The revolution in Britain will definitely have a significant effect on the Empire. There will certainly be a lot of trouble in India as well. All of this will be covered in an upcoming update dedicated to global events and the fate of the empire following the massive upheavals in Britain.

Sheer Cold said:
This right here is my timeline of 2013 already. Can't wait to see how it all plays out!
Thanks very much Sheer Cold, I’m glad you’re enjoying this timeline. There’s more to come soon. :)

unknown said:
Good update. How far are you planning on taking this?
I have a hunch that the Dominions are going to be divided over the developments in Britain, and, that if World War II comes in this TL, Canada and Australia will be on opposite sides.
Thanks for reading Unknown. I don’t want to give too much away at this early stage, but events in Britain will have a significant impact on the Rest of the World, the Empire and the Dominions. All of this will covered in upcoming updates.
 
As regards Northern Ireland and the Irish Free State, in OTL Article 12 of the Anglo-Irish Treaty signed in December 1921 provided for the establishment of a Boundary Commission to examine and adjust the boundaries between the two parts of Ireland, not only in accordance with the wishes of the inhabitants but also taking into account economic and geographical conditions. Here is the wiki entry for the Irish Boundary Commission: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Boundary_Commission.

I am very interested to see what happens in Northern Ireland in this TL. I had assumed that Carson died sometime in the 1920s, but have learnt that he died in 1935.
 
Haha

Ah the boundry commission. Basically drew a random line in the sand been honest rather than actual work.
For example;

Donegal was majority Unionist and still electing Unionist (or Unionist version) politicians of reasonable numbers till the 90's :D . And was put in the Free State :confused:
Armagh and Fermanagh which were majority Republican and had active unts in both civil war and war of indepence went into the North. :confused:

In regards Carson and Craig. Carson especially is an interesting figure, idealogical and oddly practical at times. At one time a major proponent of Southern unionism then the many who switched to a Northern Ireland stance when the wind was against Ireland staying in.
Id recommend the following; from the politics of the North that if your going the route of united ireland then it would be some sort of Federal structure of two governments in one nation or such, if the UK collpases into socialism the NI has alot to negiotate with vis-a-via the Free State. Industry, a better educated workforce and arms. North and South are bizare mirrors of each others. The South always had numbers, and capacity to raise far more than it could logistically equip - look at WW2 for examople. While the North could easily equip far more than they could actually recruit:D

Either that or an independent NI, it'll be hard without Southern support, economically its not functional without some degree of external support, OTL which Britain provided but here Britain will be hostile somewhat. This is feasible as they've a lot to trade and likely a common enemy.

Im also suspecting there will be a large immigration of conservatives to Ireland both N&S from a socialist Britain. Yes alot will go to Australia and Canada but Ireland is much nearer and only recently independent, even today theres a lot of voting links and associations following over from either side.

I will say one issue in regards Ireland declaring a Republic. If Britain become a socialist Republic then the chances of Ireland declaring Republic will decrease, especially if the Free State and North have to work together. If anything it'll delay the OTL break with Royal family as politically Ireland will want protection from the other Dominions from a socialist Repubic in Britain.
In fairness theres more chance of Ireland welcoming the King as head of state then breaking with the only grouping they can likely ally with. Declaring a Republic could be seen as welcoming in socialism and the Britsh returning after all :mad:

The interaction between the nations will be practical and double dealing at times. The Oath to the King was a very important issue in Ireland at the time, if the King is no longer King of England then theres big, big issues and butterflys on Free State politics.
 
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pipisme said:
As regards Northern Ireland and the Irish Free State, in OTL Article 12 of the Anglo-Irish Treaty signed in December 1921 provided for the establishment of a Boundary Commission to examine and adjust the boundaries between the two parts of Ireland, not only in accordance with the wishes of the inhabitants but also taking into account economic and geographical conditions. Here is the wiki entry for the Irish Boundary Commission: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Boundary_Commission.
I am very interested to see what happens in Northern Ireland in this TL. I had assumed that Carson died sometime in the 1920s, but have learnt that he died in 1935.
Hi pipisme. Although a Boundary Commission is established it doesn’t produce a report before the outbreak of revolution on the mainland. It is also hamstrung by the Northern Irish government’s refusal to appoint a representative to it as per OTL. In OTL, the MacDonald government forced an appointment, which does not occur in this T/L.

Carson would be about 71 at this point in the T/L and in OTL had largely withdrawn from Unionist politics. However with outbreak of revolution and the existential threat to Northern Ireland, he would be brought back into the fold. Even for the symbolism, if nothing else. I’ve visited Stormont and stood beneath Carson’s bronze statue and I have little doubt of the significance that Carson would have had for many in Northern Ireland at the time.

theirishdreamer said:
Ah the boundry commission. Basically drew a random line in the sand been honest rather than actual work.
For example;
Donegal was majority Unionist and still electing Unionist (or Unionist version) politicians of reasonable numbers till the 90's . And was put in the Free State
Armagh and Fermanagh which were majority Republican and had active unts in both civil war and war of indepence went into the North.
In regards Carson and Craig. Carson especially is an interesting figure, idealogical and oddly practical at times. At one time a major proponent of Southern unionism then the many who switched to a Northern Ireland stance when the wind was against Ireland staying in.
Id recommend the following; from the politics of the North that if your going the route of united ireland then it would be some sort of Federal structure of two governments in one nation or such, if the UK collpases into socialism the NI has alot to negiotate with vis-a-via the Free State. Industry, a better educated workforce and arms. North and South are bizare mirrors of each others. The South always had numbers, and capacity to raise far more than it could logistically equip - look at WW2 for examople. While the North could easily equip far more than they could actually recruit
Either that or an independent NI, it'll be hard without Southern support, economically its not functional without some degree of external support, OTL which Britain provided but here Britain will be hostile somewhat. This is feasible as they've a lot to trade and likely a common enemy.
Im also suspecting there will be a large immigration of conservatives to Ireland both N&S from a socialist Britain. Yes alot will go to Australia and Canada but Ireland is much nearer and only recently independent, even today theres a lot of voting links and associations following over from either side.
I will say one issue in regards Ireland declaring a Republic. If Britain become a socialist Republic then the chances of Ireland declaring Republic will decrease, especially if the Free State and North have to work together. If anything it'll delay the OTL break with Royal family as politically Ireland will want protection from the other Dominions from a socialist Repubic in Britain.
In fairness theres more chance of Ireland welcoming the King as head of state then breaking with the only grouping they can likely ally with. Declaring a Republic could be seen as welcoming in socialism and the Britsh returning after all
The interaction between the nations will be practical and double dealing at times. The Oath to the King was a very important issue in Ireland at the time, if the King is no longer King of England then theres big, big issues and butterflys on Free State politics.
Hi theirishdreamer. I’ve addressed the Boundary Commission in my response pipisme above. I think that had there been willingness for greater compromise at the time, it maybe could have avoided some of the later troubles to come – but that PoD is for another day and another T/L. ;)

I think that Carson was certainly the more practical and realistic of the two men in regards to possible cooperation with the Irish Free State, but that might mean little if Craig and the UUP solidly commit to a hard-line approach during the crisis. There will be an upcoming chapter dealing exclusively with the situation in Northern Ireland and the Free State in the immediate aftermath of the revolution. Hopefully that can give your questions better justice than my brief response now. :)

I agree with you that should Northern Ireland remain as the ‘last bastion’ of the United Kingdom and rapprochement is not made with the Free State, then economically things are going to go down hill pretty fast without outside assistance (like the Dominions for example).

Yes, the flow of refugees fleeing the revolution will have a big impact on NI. With a total population of only 1,257,000 in 1925 OTL (thanks to the online records of the Northern Ireland Statistics & Research Agency) refugees from the mainland will have an impact on the social, economic and political dynamics of the province. After all, out of a mainland population of 43,783,000 1925 OTL, there’s going to be plenty who would flee abroad rather than live in post-revolutionary Britain.

In terms of the Irish republic, I haven’t decided what way that will go yet – either immediately or in the longer term. You make some interesting points about the issues and especially the Oath to the King. I have been giving it considerable thought about the exact constitutional impact of the establishment of a Socialist republic in Britain and the King’s legal and actual status within the dominions/empire etc.
 
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Hmmm

Very informative response :)

I will say there would be a great deal of inflow into the Free State, strangely its likely to be a more friendly place to live than the NI with its underlying problems, even for an Englishman the North tends to lag behind from the cultural norms on the mainland while Dublin was the second city of the Empire until recently. Plus remember its very easy for a UK citizen to go then Free State and all the same rights as in the UK including voting. No restrictions especially back the 20's baring the customs checks at the border.

And the Oath's a big big thing. But its really only a disguise in of itself, its the view the Oath puts Dail Eireann as inferior to Westminster through the Royals that really rankles, especially in former anti-Treaty forces. If the King of England is no longer King of England then suddenly its a very different ballgame. ;)

I can't wait to see the next update, when shall it be? :)
 
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