Answers for Milinda

Faeelin

Banned
Part 1: Friend of the Dharma

By the time that the Mauryan Empire fell, it had lost control of vast areas of the Indian subcontinent. Areas that had once been core territories, such as Kalinga under the Chetas and the Deccan, had gone their own way under separate monarchies. This culminated, as I said in the last post, with the overthrow of the last of the Mauryan monarchs, Brihadratha, was assassinated by Pushyamitra in 185 BC.

Pushyamitra, a Vedic Brahman, is believed to have instituted a series of persecutions against Buddhists, or so it is believed. But there are some reasons to believe that he was responsible for this.

For one thing, Menander took the Title of the Savior King, printing it in Greek and Kharothsi, the script of northwest India. Archaeological evidence also indicates that many Buddhist stupas in India fell into disarray in this period, which certainly indicates that something happened to cause their destruction [2]. And finally, Buddhist works claim that the Sungas destroyed Buddhist monasteries and temples[3].

All sources agree that the forces of Menander took Pataliputra in the reign of Menander, which means the fall of the city was around 140 BC. The Yuga Purana, one of the most important works for the period, describes how the Greeks took Mathura, subdued the lands between the Ganges and the Jumna [3], and then besieged Pataliputra

Menander was forced to withdraw for two reasons. According to an inscription found in Orissa, Kharavala, a king of Kalinga in the middle of the 2nd century BC drove the Greeks from Pataliputra, and because fighting broke out amongst the Greeks. The reference to fighting amongst the Greeks likely refers to the fact that Menander probably turned about and attacked the dynasty of Eucratides in Bactria, who were critically weak and collapsing before the Saka nomads.

Thus, the Sunga dynasty was saved.

So, how does the ATL differ?

The invasion of India begins in 183 BC, with the armies of Bactria crossing the Indus. Demetrius II, like Menander, succeeds in taking Mathura and defeating Pushyamitra [5], who is killed in a battle along the Jumna. When Demetrius II reaches the walls of Pataliputra, he is in front of a city that’s in chaos as Pushyamitra’s son Agnimitra tries to keep his throne[6].

Unfortunately, he fails, and in 181 BC, the city of Pataliputra falls to Demetrius II, the Savior King.

However, unlike Menander, Demetrius II has no reason to leave Pataliputra. Bactria is under the rule of his younger brother Euthydemus II. Without the fear of barbarians moving through Bactria to attack his rear, Demetrius II feels confident enough to oppose the king of Kalinga, whom he defeats in battle.

By 180 BC, one thing is clear to the people of the Ganges. The Savior King is there to stay. He sets up a system of administration in which he appoints relatives to positions of importance, with the title of strategoi. Beneath them he appoints meridarchs, who rule over smaller provinces.

Demetrius II, it is worth noting, is not above using propaganda to gain the support of the natives, as witnessed by the titles he took OTL and the bilingual coinage of the Bactrians.

But, Demetrius was known by another title, aside from the Savior King. He was also known as the Way of Dharma, a title which is tied in with his conversion to Buddhism.

It was that conversion that was to have profound effects on the history of the world.






[1] Orissa

[2] Although this trend wasn’t unique to the lands ruled by the Sunga.

[3] There’s also an intriguing story that I feel is worth mentioning, although I wouldn’t use it as evidence. According to the legend, a white horse was sent free to roam across the lands of the Sungas before being sacrificed. It was guarded by Pushyamitra’s grandson, Asumitra, and a hundred princes who accompanied him. The only challengers were the Greeks, who tried to capture the horse as it traveled along the banks of the Sindhu. They were driven off, and the horse was sacrificed in an asvameda, a religious ceremony involving the sacrifice of the horse.

I think there’s some significance to the fact that the legend relates to the Greeks attacking the Sungas, who are performing a religious sacrifice that’s important in the Vedic tradition, but I’m not sure what.

[4] Essentially, territory around the city of Dehli.

[5] And this may have happened in OTL, although to a rather aged Pushyamitra. The Yuga Purana states that “Pushyamitra is said to have waged war against the Greek ruler of Sakala (Menander), for the sake of a beautiful damsel, and died fighting.”

[6] Narain is of the opinion that the Greek attack on Pataliputra under Menander was a relatively minor affair, and they were only there as allies of more important Indian kings, he’s pretty much alone in this view. After all, most of the sources focus on the invasion by the Yvanas (Greeks), and make little mention of Indian allies.


Thoughts?
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
I find this very fascinating and wish that there were more for me to contribute. I will tell you that the aśwamedha is a very naughty ceremony.
 
Wow :D Faeelin, this is an great start for this Bactrian Timeline. It has so much potential that I wan't to see it continued. Here is an few questions.

1. Can The Bactians perform Archelogical work on the Ancient Meluhha Civilization(Harrapan)? It would be interesting to see these Greeks and Indians sporting Meluhhan dress and revitilizing the old settlements.

2, Could the Bactrians bring the Chinese Printing Press, Paper Making and Gun Powder to the Mid East and the Medeterranien? An possible Buddist centered Industrial Revolution?
 

Faeelin

Banned
Leo Caesius said:
I find this very fascinating and wish that there were more for me to contribute. I will tell you that the aśwamedha is a very naughty ceremony.

Thanks for the encouragement, everyone, it's always great to hear.

And yes, it's an awful ceremony.

To answer your questions, Historico:

1. It's possible, but unlikely. Thucydides did argue for something about how material culture influences society, but if the Greeks did archaeology, it'd be in Greece.

2. Gun Powder is associated with the Song dynasty, and paper making is just starting around now, coming from an offspring of silk production, IIRC. But we might see a printing press, although not necessarily from Greece.

As for some sort of industrial revolution. There will not be Romans with steam. I feel the printing press will be enough fo a gimme. But... Buddhism will be in the classical world in force, in TTL. The wheel is almost a Buddhist icon.

I'm sure you can figure out what happens next.

One idea that will be central to the timeline is the Indian and Bactrian states acting as a meeting point for Chinese-Classical contact, playing the role as catalysts while unaware of the effects they're having.

Hendryk, would you be interested in helping me with China in this era?
 

Hendryk

Banned
Faeelin said:
Hendryk, would you be interested in helping me with China in this era?
You betcha :)
You have an extremely promising ATL going here, and I'd be glad to help. The idea of Buddhism spreading into the Hellenistic world is one that I have dabbled in on previous occasions, but you seem to have developed the definitive formula, and it would be great to see this reaching its full potential.
 

Faeelin

Banned
Hendryk said:
You betcha :)
You have an extremely promising ATL going here, and I'd be glad to help. The idea of Buddhism spreading into the Hellenistic world is one that I have dabbled in on previous occasions, but you seem to have developed the definitive formula, and it would be great to see this reaching its full potential.

Thanks, although Budhism won't emerge as a major force in the Hellenistic world til late 2nd, early 1st century BC.

Buddhism will arrive in China several centuries earlier than OTL, however, and that's part of the reason I'm seeking your input.

One idea I am toying with is having the Parthians and the various Barbarians move in as in OTL, and having the Mediterranean cut off from the east for a few centuries.

It may or may not happen; but it might lead to some fun times.
 

Faeelin

Banned
Part 2: The Friend of Dharma

King Milinda said: "In the world one can see things produced of karma, things produced from a cause, things produced by nature. Tell me, what in the world is not born of karma, or a cause, or of nature?"

"There are two such things, space and Nirvana."

"Do not, Nagasena, corrupt the Conqueror's words, do not answer the question ignorantly!"

"What did I say, your majesty, that you speak thus to me?"

"What you said about space not being born of karma, or from a cause, or from nature, that was correct. But with many hundreds of arguments has the Lord proclaimed to his disciples the way to the realization of Nirvana—and then you say that Nirvana is not born of a cause!"

"It is true that the Lord has with many hundreds of arguments proclaimed to his disciples the way to the realization of Nirvana; but that does not mean that he has spoken of a cause for the production of Nirvana."

-Questions of King Milinda

Demetrius II, Dimita of Indian chronicles, rules his realm fairly and expands it throughout the 170’s, gaining control of much of northern India. Demetrius II also adopts the apparatus of the Mauryan Empire’s government. He takes the title Chakravartin, meaning Sole Sovereign, and many of the symbols of Indian monarchy, such as the dandadhara[1]. The task of supervising revenue is the work of the Samaharta, or the collector-general of the kingdom. All finances fall under his purview; tolls, fines, taxes on goods such as yarn, oil, and sugar, and even taxes on prostitutes form part of the king’s revenues.

The Mauryan departments: The Treasury, the Mint, the Ministry of Weights and Measures, and so forth are also kept intact, all of them under the direct view of the king.

All accounting remains in the Indian numeral system, of course, since it’s far easier to get the Greeks to adjust to it than it is for every tax collector in the kingdom to adjust to the Greek system. This will have consequences, eventually.

Provincial administration was also maintained, with the positions of strategoi and meridarchs essentially grafted onto the already existing structure. There are even native Indian nobles who maintain their positions in the kingdom of Demetrius, such as the ruler of Maratha [2]

Demetrius’s reign, however, was not merely about conquests. He was not merely a brilliant general and administrator, but also a Buddhist, and his conversion is recorded in the Theravada work “The Questions of King Dimita”.

According to the story, Demetrius enjoyed challenging people to debates, and one day challenged Dharmarakshita, a Buddhist monk who was in fact Greek [3]. The two of them debate, and using the Socratic method, Dharmarakshita explains why Demetrius should follow the Noble Eightfold Path.

At the end of the debate, Demetrius is forced to declare that:

“ Apart from the Elder Sariputra, the supreme general of the Dharma, there is no one in this religion of the Buddha who can deal with questions as well as you do. Forgive my transgressions, Dharmarakshita! May the Venerable Dharmarakshita accept me as a lay-follower, as one who takes his refuge with the Triple Jewel, from to-day onwards, as long as I shall live!"

Demetrius II would die in 165 BC, as a supporter of the Buddhist faith. By the time he died the vast majority of his family could be considered Buddhists, including his family in Bactria.

Demetrius had been, of course, a curious man; he remembered that his family had originally come from Magnesia, in Anatolia, and he had wondered why the teachings of the Buddha should remain only in India. He had therefore urged that monks of the Buddha travel westward, and by 160 BC, Buddhist monks, their yellow robes lighting up the world like lamps in the night, were beginning the long journey to shores of the Inner Sea.

[1] Literally, the scepter, but it’s essentially a symbol that refers to the king’s sovereign power.

[2] A policy followed by King Menander historically.

[3] Dharmarakshita is a person from OTL, actually, and attended the Third Buddhist Council that met under Ashoka. I think the fact that there are Buddhist “Yavanas” in the reign of Ashoka, although in admittedly few numbers, shows that there were enough to make the conversion of Demetrius plausible.
 
Good Job on the Second Installment, King Demitrus had an pretty Interesting Reign it seems. Will you make an map for the major powers of this TL? and Keep it comming.
 

Faeelin

Banned
Historico said:
Good Job on the Second Installment, King Demitrus had an pretty Interesting Reign it seems. Will you make an map for the major powers of this TL? and Keep it comming.

Here you go. Green is Egypt, Yellow is Macedon, Indigo is Bactria, and Blue is the Seleucid Empire. This maps is from about 160 BC, around the tiem of the reduction of Parthia.

hellenistic world.gif
 

Faeelin

Banned
Okay, guys, I have a question.

I inadvertantly caused the Maccabees to lose the revolt.

Without the draining civil war between Demetrius II and Eucratides, the Bactrians will be strong enough to defeat the Parthians, possibly forcing them to become vassals. The Parthians will be overrun by barbarians, but the route to the west will remain open.

However, this means Antiochus IV will be strong enough to defeat the Maccabeans.

What are the effects on the world? Obviously, no Hannukah, for one. We might see an attempt by Antiochus to expel the Jews.

Jewish communities are found in the Western Mediterranean, particularly Transalpine Gaul. But some would also make their way into India....

Any thoughts?
 
I always thought it would have been interesting if the jews had been expelled py the parthians into india. I wonder if they could form some sort of Trade network across india, or better settle in Kashmir, and carve out your own state.
 

Faeelin

Banned
Meanwhile, in the west, the Bactrians under Euthydemus must confront the rising power of Parthia. After the defeat of the Seleucid monarch Antiochus III by the Romans at the battle of Magnesia in 189 BC, the Parthians had taken the opportunity to break away from their vassalage to the Seleucid Empire, and advanced on the Bactrian provinces of Aria and Sogdiana[4], under the Parthian king Phriapatius.

The Roman victory at Magnesia had devastated the Seleucids, under Antiochus III. They had been forced to renounce their hold on Anatolia and its silver mines. But his son Seleucus IV was no fool, and was attempting to restore the Seleucid Empire to a sound footing. Part of this involved a reorientation to the east, and an effort to subdue Parthia once again. Seleucus IV allied with Euthydemus, and the two of them managed to subdue the Parthians, killing Phripatius’s son Mithridates and forcing the Parthians to become vassals of the Seleucids once again, in 170 BC. Bactria’s trade routes to the west remain open, and the Seleucids are invigorated enough to, under Seleucus IV, turn westward.

It is at this point that things begin to effect the Mediterranean region, so I feel it is worth taking a brief digression to examine the events that are occurring in this era.

With the defeat of Antiochus III of the Seleucids, the Achaean League was free to focus on eliminating Sparta, its arch rival. Using as a pretext the Spartan assault on the village of Las in 189 BC, the Achaeans moved in for the kill. The Spartans, wisely, surrenderd to the Romans in an effort to ensure the survival of their city.

The Roman Senate ultimately decided that there should be no change in Spartan circumstances, which effectively meant that the Romans were not getting involved. Philopoemen, the leader of the Achaean League, used this as an opportunity to return the Spartan exiles to their home, tore down the walls of Sparta, and rewrote the constitution. The Roman Senate disapproved of Philopoemen’s actions, but was not moved to intervene.

Philopoemen, howver, was forced to drink hemlock in 183 BC, and the pro-Roman party inevitably gained ground in the Achaean League.

Meanwhile in Egypt, the boy king Ptolemy VI ascended to the crown in 181 BC after his father died in mysterious circumstances, and his wife Cleopatra, daughter of Antiochus III, became regent. But she died in 176, and the boy king was left under the control of petty guardians.

In Macedonia, Perseus slew his younger half brother Demetrius, who had been a hostage in Rome. When their father, Philip died in 179 BC, the way was clear for Perseus to take the throne. However, many in Rome were uneasy with Perseus. He took cancelled debts, amnestied exiles, and refused to see a Roman embassy in 173 BC. The Romans, understandably, were expecting a war [5].

Eumenes II of Pergamon [6], a Roman ally, also said that Perseus was planning ar, and accused him of organizing a rockslide that nearly killed him near Delphi. Eumenes was concerned about Perseus’s attempts to tie himself to the Seleucids by marriage, and thought that such an alliance would threaten his expansion in Anatolia. Egged on by Eumenes, and a faction in Rome which sought new plunder, in the spring of 171 BC, the Senate and People of the Republic of Rome declacred war on Macedon.

After several years of indecisive warfare, the Romans triumphed over the Macedonians in 168 BC, and following their triumph the Romans divided Macedonia into four autonomous republics, and carried off the valuables of the kingdom.

Here is where events begin to diverge substantially.

In the ATL, Seleucus IV does not take the opportunity to go to war with Egypt, still tied up in subduing Parthia. What this means is that when a certain Judas Maccabee begins his rebellion, he will face a stronger, invigorated Seleucid Empire.

Okay, maybe that wasn’t that short.

But before we discuss the events that arise from that, it’s worth commenting on one more aspect of the reign of Demetrius II, King of India. Demetrius had been, of course, a curious man; he remembered that his family had originally come from Magnesia, in Anatolia, and he had wondered why the teachings of the Buddha should remain only in India. He had therefore urged that monks of the Buddha travel westward, and by 160 BC, Buddhist monks, their yellow robes lighting up the world like lamps in the night, were beginning the long journey to shores of the Inner Sea.



[4] Eastern Iran

[5] Although in actuality, Perseus probably was not set on war. But as the Roman casus belli, which included the accusation that Perseus was planning to poison the Roman Senate, attests, the Romans were never a people to need a good excuse.

[6] A state in Anatolia

[7] Who in the ATL was never killed by his ministers after his success against Parthia.
 

Faeelin

Banned
By the 2nd century BC, Judea was in many ways a typical Seleucid province. It had a group of ambitious up and comers who were hellenizing and adapting to the Hellenistic tradition, a group of traditionalists who opposed all Hellenistic influence, and a few Greeks here and there. There were, of course, differences. Only in Judea was the local political representation invested in a High Priest, who assumed the aspect of a petty monarch. The High Priest, in this particular case, worshipped only one god, who was known as Adonai[1].

By the 160’s, contact between the Greeks and Jews had led to many changes in Jewish culture. Attempts were made to derive Greek philosophy from Mosaic Law, and there is a real fear, by men such as Joshua Ben Sira that the Hellenistic ways were dangerous for the People of God. As Joshua Ben Sira put it, in the Hellenistic world “wine gladdens life, and money answers everything.”

Judea had fallen to Antiochus III in the beginning of the 2nd century BC, and in 198 BC Jerusalem itself welcomed its new overlord. Antiochus III was generous to the Temple in Jerusalem, promising it sacrificial animals, oil, wine, wheat, flour, and other goods, the equivalent of twenty thousand silver drachmas annually. Antiochus III also promised the Jews the right to live by their “own ancestral constitution”, the Torah. The foundations had seemingly been laid for a peaceful coexistence between the Seleucids and the Jews.

Sadly, this happy state of affairs was not to last. By the middle of the 2nd century BC, tensions were building up between traditionalists and a group of Hellenizers in Judea. These Jews ate at the table of Greeks, dallied with Greek dancing girls, and dealt with Samaritans. To traditional Jews, this was nothing more than a fundamental departure from all that Judaism represented.

The clash came in 175 BC, when the High Priest Simon II passed away. He was succeeded by his son, Onias III, who was a traditionalist Jew and a member of the pro-Ptolemy party. He was opposed by the Hellenizers, including his brother Jason [2], who petitioned Seleucus IV to remove Onias. Jason offered Antiochus IV an additional 140 talents of tribute per year in return for the office, and it is no wonder that Seleucus IV accepted.

What Jason also obtained from Seleucus, however, was the authority to build a gymnasium. Jason is backed by several powerful families, including the Tobiads, a rich dynasty of Jewish financiers[3]. Seleucus IV accepted, and the rest, as they say, was history.

The gymnasium was built on Temple Hill, and crowds of young men soon began to exercise there. But there is, of course, a problem. As Jews, their circumcision made them, err, rather obvious. Soon many Jews were concealing them by artificial means. Even worse, Jason offered to make a cash offering to Heracles-Melkart in Tyre, to the discuss of even the Hellenizing Jews, who were known as “Antiochenes”.

The changes begin here. Without the war in Egypt that was waged by Antiochus IV, Seleucus IV does not remove Jason. The Seleucids do not sack the Temple, and do not replace Jason with their puppet Menelaus. Judas Maccabeus never has to reconsecrate the temple, and there is never a Heathen altar to replace.

There is, of course, no Hannukah.

[1] Also known as Yahweh.

[2] Known also as Jesus, in the tongue of the Jews.

[3] But Jason did not, as has been argued, transformed Jerusalem into a polis. As Peter points out in Alexander to Actium, “it is difficult to see how… so unprecedented a change could have been imposed, not least since Jerusalem remained under priestly rule”.
 

Hendryk

Banned
Faeelin said:
Buddhism will arrive in China several centuries earlier than OTL, however, and that's part of the reason I'm seeking your input.
We're going to have to discuss this in greater length once your narrative gets to that point. Right now, as a preamble, what I can say is that, in OTL, Buddhism first gained a toehold in China during the 1st century CE, as the Han dynasty was slowly beginning to decline, and spread in a big way between the 3rd and the 8th centuries. This spread was facilitated by the crisis of the Confucian ideology and traditional Taoism, which had become increasingly rigid, formalized systems due to their instrumentalization by the Han power structure; and it also benefited from the lack of a centralized authority during most of that period. Once the political apparatus was firmly centralized once again, at the height of the Tang dynasty in the 8th century, the growth of Buddhism was halted. So if you want to seriously alter the history of the spread of Buddhism in China, my suggestion is to start early, before the Han dynasty is firmly in control and things are still in a state of flux. I don't think a new religion would have a real chance during the reign of the First Emperor (221-203 BC), except as an underground movement, considering the proto-totalitarian policies of thought control he implemented.
Then there is the question of Chinese alterations of Buddhist dogma, but whatever the TL, those are unlikely to become an issue for the first couple of centuries. I'll develop the topic when the need arises.
 
Faeelin said:
[1] Also known as Yahweh.

Adoni...I never heard that one before.

Faeelin said:
[2] Known also as Jesus, in the tongue of the Jews.

Jesus(Which is greek) I belive in the Yehud provience was Yeshua, not Jason.

Faeelin said:
[3] But Jason did not, as has been argued, transformed Jerusalem into a polis. As Peter points out in Alexander to Actium, “it is difficult to see how… so unprecedented a change could have been imposed, not least since Jerusalem remained under priestly rule”.

So does the Yehud provience become, and Greek City State...I really would like to see you delve into the possibility.
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
DominusNovus said:
Isn't Jesus Latin?
It's the Latin form of IECOYC, the Greek form of Yeshu'a. The Greeks had no way of writing the sh sound (as in shoot) and the ' sound as in, well, the sound you make when you retch; and, of course, Y comes out as I (or J in Latin) and U comes out as OU in Greek (and U in Latin). Plus the Greeks tack that -s on the end of every name. So IECOYC / IESUS is just the Greek pronunciation of the name Yeshu'a; it's as accurate as they could do, given that Aramaic and Greek are quite different in their phonologies.
 
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