Anglo-Saxon England

[Flocculencio]

The Danish king, allied by marriage to Tostig, Edgar, and the Scottish king could have made common cause

King Svein of Denmark was also Harold's cousin. He might have decided to make common cause with the obviously God-blessed Harold Williamsbane (one of the titles given to him in the epic The March of Harold) in order to crush the Norwegians. Incidentally its interesting just how many people Harold Godwinson was related to. The royal Anglo-Saxon dynasty,the House of Godwinson would be related by marriage to the ruling houses of Norway, Denmark and possibly most surprisingly (to me at least) to the Grand Princes of Kiev through Harold's daughters marriage to Grand Prince Vladimir Monomakh.

Additionally, because much of this civilization depends on seaborn commerce, do we have earlier or later settlement of Vinland?

According to The Vikings in History (F.D. Logan, 1991), 'In about the year 1000 Vikings sighted, landed at, explored and attempted to settle the North American littoral'. According to the same source, Vinland was known at the court of the aforementioned King Svein (incidentally nephew of King Cnut of England). A German geographer, Adam of Bremen recorded this information which implies that it was no secret.

Maybe Anglo-Saxon England might provide the impetus to continue the settlement of Vinland. I'm not trying to argue that any permanent settlements might be set up but possibly, through closer ties with Iceland, English fishing fleets might seasonally sail to the cod banks off Newfoundland, setting up temporary outposts to salt their catch. As news spread of Newfoundland, land hungry Scandinavians might start to set up more permanent settlements as they did in Iceland.

Over time, some of these fishermen would drift further south finding more habitable terrain around OTL Maine and Massachusets. Trading contacts are made with the Skraelings and diseases soon decimate them. Meanwhile in England, a disaffected earl is exiled (just as Harold the Great was exiled to Ireland earlier in his career). This adventurous and hot-blooded young Earl of Stamford gathers those thanes still loyal to him and sets out for Vinland. He establishes the settlement of New Stamford on the site of OTL Boston. As the first noble in Vinland, he operates as an independent petty king in his own right, bringing the disease wracked skraelings under his control. His descendants will, in later years be the rulers of a great anglo-Saxon nation...

 

[Norman]

Mixateland 1200 A.D.

Even while the grand discoveries of the Norse in Europe begin to come to an end, strange tales begin to filter East from The Kingdom of New Stamford. The young king, Alfraed, the third of that name, had outfitted an expedition to travel south along the coast.

They traveled with Brother Njal, a Monk of the Order of Patrick who kept careful notes of all that he saw.

South they traveled along vast and empty shores, somethimes bothered by the local Skraelings, but generally left alone. On several occasions they traded with the local chiefs, and began to hear tales of a vast, powerful and rich empire somewhere in the distant south.

At first, they discounted the tales, but eventually, they made landfall along a warm and tropical coast. There they traded with the natives, generally using simpler trade goods available to them.

One sailor, a Sven Thovaldson, had an extra belt knife, which he used to demonstrate trick knife throwing. One chief took a fancy to the knife and began to offer more and more for it, until at last he brought for a magnificant gold statuette, about the size of Sven's fist. The entire crew gathered around, then asked where it had come from. The chief indicated that a fierce and blood thirsty tribe to the south had brought this to him in exchange for special sea shells.

Naturally facinated by the story, the sailors all listened, particularly as the story grew dark. Tales of sacrafices dark and bloody were told. Brother Njal felt his blood grow chilled even in this tropical land. Tis was truly a land ruled by a dark lord, maybe Satan himself.

The next day the expedition left to go home, arriving early inthe Spring. Alfraed commanded them to tell their tales, which they did to everybody's amazement. But when they reached the part of the tale about the gold and the blood, several listeners scoffed. Then Sven brought out his statutette.

 

[Flocculencio]

Meanwhile in Europe...

The aging High King Alfric of the house of Godwinson was struck down in the winter of 1198 by a fit of apoplexy. Alfric hangs on the verge of death throughout the winter but gains enough lucidity to name his heir in the presence of the High Witan before finally expiring. The news spreads like fire through Scandinavia. Alfric, having no sons has named his daughter, Hylda, High Queen of the North. This event ignites the tensions between England and its vassals of Scotland and Wales. Malcolm, King of Scots and Owyn One-Eye, Prince of Wales are Celtic nobles whose ancestors were given their positions by the victorious House of Godwinson. By May of 1199, Welsh and scottish armies have risen in rebellion against the High Queen. However, what follows is an example of what the family of Godwinson has acomplished in its century on the throne. In scotland, the Highland clans refused to join the rising, despising their lowland cousins and preferring to trust in the Godwinsons. In Wales, many of the border lords also refused to join with Owyn, identifying themselves more with the English. In the North, Hylda herself took symbolic command of her armies.
In the Midlands, Helm Tostigson, Earl of Leicester marched against Wales, gathering the fyrd as he went. The reaction to this in Scandinavia furthermore illustrated the national bonds that the house of Godwinson had forged. There was a Godwinson on each of the thrones of Scandinavia and when emissaries from Malcolm and Owyn appeared, inviting them to stab Hylda in the back, they were without exception ignored. Indeed, Norwegian warriors from the colonies in Ireland crossed the Irish sea to raid the welsh coast thus forcing Owyn One-Eye to split his forces.
In June 1199, Helm Hammerhand joined battle with Oywn near Bristol. Although the Anglo-Saxons did not use heavy armoured cavalry like continental knights did, their heavy infantry was fearsome, backed up by peasant levies and medium cavalry. Owyn's longbowmen managed to hold off the English infantry but proved indecisive- Welsh lords remaining loyal to the High Queen had contributed their own levies of longbowmen to the Fryd. in the end, Owyn was outflanked by the English cavalry and (as legend has it) fell in single combat with Earl Helm. A few days later, the Scots were defeated at the battle of York by english troops, reinforced by Norwegians who had been dispatched by King Harald Godwinson of Norway. Malcolm retreated into Scotland but had his forces ambushed by an army of Highlanders, paid by the English. He was captured and brought back to York to face justice. Lowland Scotland was incorporated as a principality of England while the Highland clans were given self rule as vassals of the High Queen. A Godwinson cousin, Wiglaf Godwinson was appointed Prince of Scotland.

Earl Helm meanwhile marched through Wales, pillaging the lands of disloyal welsh lords as he went. A new Prince of Wales was appointed, a welshman who had remained loyal, Arthur ap Uther. Many of the disloyal welsh lords, notably Prince Gareth ap Owyn, son of Owyn One-eye, had fled with their families and retainers to the coast where they took ship for Vinland. New Stamford was about to see an influx of impoverished but well armed fighting men...

 

[MerryPrankster]

"Helm Hammerhand"

Isn't he a historical character (a past king of Rohan) from "The Lord of the Rings"? Or is that name an old Saxon-ish name (Tolkien was a professor of ancient languages) that existed in real life and Tolkien decided to use it.

Very good timeline so far. I see we've got a good dynastic civil war (sort of) and the seeds of a split in the Anglo-Saxon commonwealth (the defeated rebels taking over Vinland).

 

[Faeelin]

What's going on in France? In the Empire?

 

[Flocculencio]

Helm is a historical Germanic name IIRC. Tolkein nicked it to use as the name of a King of Rohan. I nicked it from Tolkein I've also stolen Arthur son of Uther heheheh...

Very good timeline so far. I see we've got a good dynastic civil war (sort of) and the seeds of a split in the Anglo-Saxon commonwealth (the defeated rebels taking over Vinland).

Thanks for the compliment. I was figuring on establishing a pattern where Vinland became the haven of the "Wretched Refuse" of the Commonweatlh of the North. Basically every time there was a power struggle (be it political, military or religious), the losers would head out for Vinland. Vinland might become, like early British America, a place you go if no one at home wants you practicing your kooky heresy/ dangerous political insubordination. This would give Vinland the population boost it lacked OTL- true, it would just be a trickle of dissidents but a steady trickle nonetheless.

As for the European side of the Commonwealth, the House of Godwinson might be this TLs earlier equivalent of the Hapsburgs- a mighty royal house welding far flung posessions together through dynastic marriage.

I'm very interested to see what Norman has planned for New Stamford with regards to the Maya though.

As for Continental Europe- I'm not sure. I have to do a bit more reading on the situation there around 1066 before I can extrapolate. If anyone has any ideas please feel free to contribute.

 

[Norman]

Ivar MacEvan, sat morosely drinking what passed among these New Stamfordmen as ale. He drank slowly but steadily, after this night there would be little enough to go around during this cold New Stamford winter.

Sounds of swearing and cursing drifted in from the docks as men opened and closed the alehus door. Sailors getting their vessels ready for a stiff blow coming up the coast.

He had been here for a month now, and had come to the conclusion that these New Stamfordmen were little better than their damn Anglish cousins, more interested in trade than a good fight, and it was a good fight Ivar wanted more than just about anything. If he hadn't sworn to the young Gareth ap Owyn, former 'Aetheling' as these Anglsh speakers would say. to stay out of trouble, he would be in a fight.

But he knew that Gareth, as fine a leader as any man could hope for, was between two cold rocks. On one side, he was here on the sufference of 'Cyning' Alfraed, and on the other he had little in the way on gold. He was talking to the merchants right now trying to hire he an his men out for next seasons trading, inland back to the trading towns along the great fresh seas.

A drunken conversation was going on over by the fire, and Ivar drifted over just to hear the sound of different voices.

"Damn Stamfordmen, they all sound like they have a mouth full of rocks."

But soon his ear was able to make the necessary allowances, and he was beginning to understand what was being said. Then his ears caught the one word that he would know in almost all the languages of the Northern Seas, "Gold".

"Aye, Sven here, he's a good trader." The speaker pointed to the man sitting next to him, almost completely drunk, nodding up from his drink with a foolish look.

"Better yet, he's lucky. That old Chief wanted that knife, and would take no for an answer. Kept offering more and more, even offered his daughter, as if we could bring her back. It went on and on, till he got up. We all thought it was the end of the trading when he came back."

"Hey sven, show him what you got for that old knife of yours."

The drunk fumbled at his purse and pulled out a yellow statuette.

Ivar looked closely, shocked, it was gold!

"Oh Aye, that chief told us it came from another tribe that was rich."

Ivar's brain bubbled for a few minutes, then he stood up and stumbled out of the Alehus. This was something Gareth needed to know.

 

[stodge]

Europe and 1066..

The Norman Conquest of England was a major power-political event at the time and a sensational development - the equivalent today of Belgium taking over England I suppose.

The most prosperous state in western Europe was effectively overrun by a relatively small group of knights from a Duchy almost always at war with France and the states around it.

This is why, for all the AH opinions I've heard on this subject, I cannot go with the concept that an Anglo-Saxon England would be somehow isolated from Continental Europe and would develop a history more akin to Scandinavia. Yes, the first period of Anglo-Saxon rule up to 1016 was mainly involved with the Danes and the Vikings but it was some of those Vikings who first established Normandy in 911. Rollo was a more successful version of Guthrum in that whereas the Danelaw was ultimately transitory, Normandy proved more durable.

I simply cannot accept that a victorious Harold would not seek retribution against the Normans. The period from the 1030s to the 1060s saw a struggle between Norman and English influences. Edward the Confessor was more Norman than English, having fled when the Danes conquered England. The Godwins spent much of the 1050s and 1060s resisting the "Normanisation" (for want of a better word) of England.

The invasion by Duke William was ostensibly the military extension of the process of Normanisation and the rapid collapse of Saxon England in the wake of Hastings showed the degree to which the most senior institutions of English life were prepared to accept William as king rather than Edgar or another of the Godwins.

Had Harold prevailed in 1066, the following years would have seen the eradication of Norman influences, first in England, and then by extension in Normandy itself. It's far from inconceivable that Harold and Philip of France could have allied to expunge Normandy.

Further east, English economic interests relied on stablility in Flanders. Now, a widowed matilda was the sister of the Count of Flanders. Could she have sought to turn Flanders against England ? At that point, Harold can use English wealth to seek alliance with the Emperor, Henry. The Emperor, like Harold, is resisting the edicts of the Pope and also wants to bring Flanders back under Imperial control.

Could Harold, Henry and Philip have effectively carved up western Europe between them in the 1070s ?

Final thought, the idea of a Godwin dynasty is of course plausible. It ignores the fact that 11th century states relied strongly on the persona of the monarch. While he's alive, Harold The Great will be unchallenged but his death would, in my view, usher in a major power struggle within the clan between Harold's children by his "royal" wife and his children by Edith, let alone his nephews. There are all the ingredients for fratricidal conflict in the late 1080s and that wasn't unknown in Saxon England.

Final, final thought...the concept of a unified England was fairly new in 1066. If, instead of an England united under an occupier, we get an England divided by civil war, does this mean Wales and Scotland get more territory and a greater say in the development of the British Isles ? What about Ireland - it's likely, in my view, that without a Norman invasion, Anglo-Irish relations will be very different.

Plenty to ponder

 

[Norman]

I don't know if Harold would be that upset with the Normans, he might be satisfied that he won and determine to consolidate his power base in England.

I like the idea of getting some resonance between Harold and Henry. Are the time periods close enough?

 

[Norman]

Let me answer my own question, the time periods are very close. This is an incredible period of History!

We have Hellbrand (Hildebrant) who later becomes Gregory VII, really weilding much of the power behind the papal see, and Matilda, an absolutely amazing woman coming into her own.

In OTL, Gregory VII and Matilda are able to work very closely together to secure the power of the See, but in this ATL, it might work differently, particularly if Henry, who is already chaffing under the power of the Pope determines to have his clergy follow the Celtic Archbishop (of York??).

The Normans in OTL were able to turn Henry back when he established an anti-pope, but in TTL, if Harold is secure, they would not be able to do this. In turn, all of the ruling kings and princes would be able to offset the opposing 'popes'.

Thus, many of the 'reforms' of Gregory don't happen, among which is that Priests are allowed to marry. Also consider that his successor Urban II, faced with a direct competitor won't initiate the First Crusade.

 

[LDoc]

Although this are all small details I do think they could have massive implications for the ATL. First the Anglo-Saxon Fyrd was NOT composed of untrained peasents but instead was composed of semi-proffesional warriors such as the Theyns, Eorls, and sometimes the wealthy peasents the Ceorl. Finaly the fyrd also consisted of the Huscarls which each Eorl had a small contigent of (300 about) and the king ussualy had a contingent of 3,000. Finaly the entire anglo-saxon army is very mobile as every man rides on a horse BUT before battle they would dismount and fight on foot, only fighting from horse to persue a fleeing enemy. Anglo-Saxons had no cavalry that is document and instead their army is based on a semi-proffesional force that is almost without equal in quality compared to those on the continent. As i said this a little detail but i feel that a Anglo-Saxon England would have a radicaly different army compared to their continental neighbours. Such things as the introduction of the welsh bow earlier would be more then plausable as the Anglo-Saxon massed "line" was very vulnerable to bows because of the density of soldiers.

 

[Norman]

Ldoc:

Good research. Can you sketch out how you think a battle would take place?

 

[LDoc]

The Anglo-Saxon 'line' was the primary defensive formation as it allowed for the numbers of of the AngSax to come to effect while limiting the effecitiveness of a cavalry charge, or more likely, a\ infantry charge such as the Vikings were so famouse for. For the attacker i would think that a infantry charge would be a favored tactic or possible just moving the 'line' forward until it hits the other line. The AngSax military formations and tactics are not well known but it was probably heavily influnced from their experince fighting the vikings and most likely was largely defensive. Another important factor to remember is that archers were rare in a AngloSax and Viking army so they had little relevence to how military leaders decided tactics and strategies, which is another reason why the 'line' was probably a favored method. The problem with a AngloSax formation is that should range weapons be used behind a 'line' it would mean a almost garaunted victory as the archers would be properly defended while the opposing line would be near defenseless as the 'line' was so compact that a arrow had to hit somthing. That is why i would guess that the welsh bow would appear on the english scene much earlier. Mayber Harold enters wales but is but is ambushed by welsh bowmen and after his conquest of wales demands that every fyrd member in wales be trained in the welsh bow instead of other weapons?

 

[Flocculencio]

"The Godwins spent much of the 1050s and 1060s resisting the "Normanisation" (for want of a better word) of England."

I understand what you're saying here stodge but what I am trying to suggest is that given the double POD of a church seperate from that of the Continent and a ruler intent of eradicating all traces of "Normanisation" England might well have adopted a relatively isolationistic policy toward the Continent.

Harold (and his father Godwin before him) were both men of strong character. Godwin, for example, rose from obscure beginnings to become a power behind the throne of England. Admittedly he overreached his grasp and was exiled. However, now in Harold, we have a Godwinson who has gained the ultimate prize, the throne. Harold, however, has seen what happens to those who overreach- might he not then wish to consolidate his power by "Godwinising" England and securing his borders by conquering Wales, effectively subjugating Scotland and tying his Scandinavian cousins ever closer to him before engaging in adventures on the Continent?

LDoc: Thanks for the information!

 

[Flocculencio]

The war against the Welsh in a bit more detail

Maybe this should more properly be in the writers forum but I thought I'd post it here seeing as it has to do with the substance of the thread. If this is inappropriate I'd be happy to delete it.

The Epic of Helm

Hwǽt! Dark was the night, dire the tidings
When Helm rode forth, to face his foemen
Away into darkness to face fear and danger
Rode he forth, Helm the Hammerhand
Foes he had slain, seventy all told
Many were Welsh, wolves of the border
Bandits and robbers, raping and stealing
Helm rode on gathering the fyrd
First his huscarls, his loyal retainers
Unferth was their head, hale and hardy
Helm rode on gathering the fyrd
His thanes came to him, and his ceorls
A mighty force, fearing no evil
The fyrd rode on with Helm at their head.
On through that day Helm rode West
West to Wales, to the wolves of the mountains
Night came slowly, the fyrd rested,
Resting for battle, for war and for glory
Leofric guested the nobles of the fyrd
Toasting the son of Tostig in his great hall
Leofric, Warwick’s earl, brave, though untried,
Young in years and young in courage
The fire of his fathers blazed within him
Loyal unto death, Aelfric’s son Leofric
Called forth his wife, the swan-like Mayda
Bade her serve Helm that greatest of heroes
Called forth his Bard, Wade the Poet
(Who first sang this work as all remember)
And bade him sing an epic, to hearten the heroes
Wade took his lyre, “Lords and warriors,
Now here gathered, all sons of glory
High-born, the Welsh-bane, sing I shall for you
The greatest of legends, I give you Beowulf”
As he sang this, mightiest of legends
The heros hearkened, hearts set aflame,
To smite the Welsh, as Beowulf smote Grendel
As the Lord smote the Midianites in the days of old
And after he sang this, vows were taken, rings were given
By Helm and the nobles, into the night.

As dawn broke, watchmen cried warning,
A host was approaching, with trappings of war
Helm sent forth riders, scouting the foemen
Gathered the fyrd into the shield-wall.
Albert rode forth, on his swift steed
Carrying with him the symbols of parley
“Who are you now, that seek to pass?
I see by your faces that you are Welshmen
Wolves of the Border! Turn back or fight!”
One stepped forward, kingly was his bearing
Raising his hand in token of parley
“I am named Arthur, son of great Uther,
Earl of Caer Dyff, loyal to my Queen.
Save your insults for those who deserve them
Take me to Helm, I have counsel for him.”

To be continued?...

 

[Grey Wolf]

Where's Edgar (?) Aetheling, do you not think he might have a shot for his historical throne when a bit older ? Backed by Scotland it seems quite likely to me as in that all the nations around England have never shown that they are just going to sit there and wait for the English to act first, there is always a cut and thrust about it. If Harold goes after the Welsh I would think it a very good time for Edgar (if thats his name) and the Scots to come down from the North. The Welsh are not going to be easy, and with a two-front war Harold is going to have to make a choice as to which ones to make peace with and where to turn his attention. The aetheling is a direct threat to his line so I could see even a successful Welsh enterprise being abandoned, maybe with some fluffy bits of tribute and a few borderland keeps thrown in, and then full attention paid to the graver threat from up North.

I also wonder what about the Scandinavian nations and even Normandy ? Might not Robert want revenge for the death of his father rather than the other way round (Harold wanting to push it). Given that medieval England always sees rebellious nobles being exiled and making common cause with outside regimes it seems quite possible to me that some would try again to get Normandy to invade a decade or so later.

Grey Wolf

 

[Anthony Appleyard]

England would not still be speaking Anglo-Saxon now. Most of the Norman period simplification of English grammar was a semi-pidginization caused by having to absorb a lot of Old Norse speakers.

 

[robertp6165]

England would not still be speaking Anglo-Saxon now. Most of the Norman period simplification of English grammar was a semi-pidginization caused by having to absorb a lot of Old Norse speakers.

That's not actually true. The Old Norse and Old English (Anglo-Saxon) languages were virtually identical and, indeed, mutually intelligible. It should be remembered that the Anglo Saxons, for the most part, came from Denmark (Jutland and Angeln). There were a few word swaps (Old Norse "systyr" which replaced "schwester" and became "sister" in Modern English, for example). But Old Norse had very few effects on the Old English language as a whole. The infusion of French and Latin words which followed in the wake of the Norman conquest was the major factor which caused our language to evolve into the form it holds today.

 

[Norman]

Loss of inflections in Anglo Saxon

Just a thought on this subject.

I have heard that many of the inflections of the anglo-saxon language were being lost by 1066, and that the Normans merely speeded up and added a lot of french words.

However, with a Celtic or Northern Church and Harold's, (as in the POD), we could actually have a situation in which the literate actively preserve the inflective endings. (One reasons literate groups did not in OTL was that French was being spoken, so there was no 'center' to the language.) If we have a literate court, we have a cultural center, and the changes in our language are minimized as priests and nobles are taught the 'correct' way to speak Anglo-Saxon.

 

[Norman]

Gareth Ap Owyn

On the strength of the southern tales, Gareth Ap Owyn began to gather men about him. Surprisingly, many of the men he gathered to himself were Anglisc and Norse, rather than the Welshmen he had hoped for, but he was known as brave fighter, and generous to his men, and this was enough for these northerners.

He gathered a small fleet and traveled to the far south. He found what proved to be a very large island with a good harbors, and set up a fortified camp. Alternately trading and raiding along the islands coast, he began to amass a small fortune which he planned to use to equip a force to return to Wales with.

But the knowledge of his successes soon was being spread far and wide along the cold northern shores of Europe. Ships began to arrive, many carrying the families and friends of his swoen men to the warm island, and soon the small encampment had grown to over a thousand families.

Trade with the island's natives soon suffered, as many of the Skraelings began to contract the diseases that had wiped out so many of their nothern kinsmen. As his trade diminished, his men began to grow restive, and soon some were leaving on their own ventures.

Aldhelm Berthunsson, an Anglisc captain, landed his ship on a not too distant shore, and there he met with a group of people who called themselves the Ucuatn. After learning the language, Aldhelm hired himself and his men out to assist a local ruler throw off the control of a nearby city, and brought back more loot than ever seen before.

(**In way of explanation, nobody really seems to know if the Mayans actually had a name for themselves, the name Mayan was adopted from the name of a city-state or tribal group that conquered and ruled others during a period known as the Post classical Mayan period. Since this was the group in power when the Spanish arrived, this is thename we use. Because of this I use a mangled name, Ucuatn, based on the sounds in "Yucatan". )

Word of this further success brought even more captains to the island, and soon Gareth, now called the Lucky, had more men under his command than he would have on the far cold island of his ancestors. It was true, you can't go home again, but sometimes you don't need to.