An Age of Miracles: The Revival of Rhomanion

[Mathalamus]

One possible issue to resolve the 'need to remove bad emperor without coup/civil war' could be the concept of retirement. In my original draft Andreas Niketas lived into his 90s, but in his mid 70s retired. He retained all the ceremonial trappings of being an Emperor but his heir had all the power. If something like that became a tradition, perhaps bad emperors could be retired on grounds of incompetence rather than the original factor of age. The concept of co-emperorship is perfect for this. Obviously one issue with this is that it requires a heir to fill the slot of the retiree.

Well, if an heir does not exist, the Senate (or the people itself) can elect a leader from a different family.

for example, the last Angelos Emperor is forced to retire due to extreme disgusting incompetence, and the People elect the Komnenos Emperor back into power.

you will, of course, allow females to become leaders on occasion? i would love to have a Roman equivalent of Elizabeth II. but more powerful. and long reigning.

 

[ed_montague]

Well, if an heir does not exist, the Senate (or the people itself) can elect a leader from a different family.

for example, the last Angelos Emperor is forced to retire due to extreme disgusting incompetence, and the People elect the Komnenos Emperor back into power.

you will, of course, allow females to become leaders on occasion? i would love to have a Roman equivalent of Elizabeth II. but more powerful. and long reigning.

There was Anna and Maria of Barcelona, the former of whom wasn't half bad but the latter of whom sparked off the War of the Five Emperors. No doubt the acceptance of future female rulers is going to remain low for a good while yet...

 

[Elfwine]

Well, if an heir does not exist, the Senate (or the people itself) can elect a leader from a different family.

for example, the last Angelos Emperor is forced to retire due to extreme disgusting incompetence, and the People elect the Komnenos Emperor back into power.

Alexius son of Manuel son of Andronicus, I presume. Born 1182 . . . so what year do we pick him?

you will, of course, allow females to become leaders on occasion? i would love to have a Roman equivalent of Elizabeth II. but more powerful. and long reigning.

Her Majesty has been on the throne for sixty years and is still going.

Ed: And before timeline start: Irene, Zoe, Theodora (and Justinian's wife Theodora seems to have acted more like a co-ruler than decoration).

 

[Arrix85]

A thought about Sardinia: could it please remain Aragonese? It seems to me than in every ATL Sardinia becomes italian as a afterthought. I was thinking about Milanese expansion after Tuscany (without touching Rhomania's vassals) and a conquest of Sardinia by Milan (which is the italian state ITTL) doesn't make much sense.

Also, a special mention to Andreas Drakos, who didn't "strategically redeployed"

 

[Alexandria Eschate]

Free speech is more difficult, since no monarch is going to tolerate lese-majesty. Now something like a free speech edict that says you can say whatever you want, so long as you don't 1) advocate treason 2) insult the Emperor as a person (meaning you can say, Act 42 is stupid, but not the Emperor who wrote it is stupid) and 3) threaten the life of the Imperial family. That'd provide a good pressure release valve, although the fuzziness of #2 could definitely be an issue.

I think it's feasible, but it would take an enlightened and tolerant monarch to push it through.

Doable, but there's a reason it never happened OTL. Overcoming that won't be universal.

Well, as long as the Emperor is still semi-revered by the Roman populace, you could use OTL Thailand's lese majeste rules as an influence, though as OTL, someone is bound to abuse the rule for their own purposes, plus the jail duration is quite excessive. But one important thing to note is that it was implemented in the Constitution when Thailand moved away from absolute monarchy, so I would say this kind of law making it into a Kaisereich-esque Rhomania isn't impossible.

Also,do you guys think that Rhomania should have a written or unwritten constituiton?

Merry Christmas,guys!

 

[Arrix85]

Also,do you guys think that Rhomania should have a written or unwritten constituiton?

Merry Christmas,guys!

I think Roman Law is firmly in the written form (and the Constituion is the supreme saw of the land).

And I second the wishing .

 

[Elfwine]

Thirding the wishing.

I think written is in the Roman tradition, but a never-quite-spelled-out-in-so-many-words fits the awkward evolution from "the Emperor's will is law" to "Technically, the Emperor -could- randomly arrest citizens, but It's Just Not Done." that would be how constitutional monarchy would evolve in this environment.

 

[Tyg]

I think written is in the Roman tradition, but a never-quite-spelled-out-in-so-many-words fits the awkward evolution from "the Emperor's will is law" to "Technically, the Emperor -could- randomly arrest citizens, but It's Just Not Done." that would be how constitutional monarchy would evolve in this environment.

Oddly enough, that would almost be a return to the original concept of the 'Emperor' in the early principate. No Emperor now though would attempt to portray themselves as merely the chief magistrate of the state.

 

[Grouchio]

There's going to be 888,888 views right around now...

 

[PlayerOne]

It occurs to me, since the Crescent and Star have remained a symbol of Constantinople ITL, does it have any place as a Roman symbol? And what's the prevailing symbol for Islam in this timeline?

 

[Arrix85]

It occurs to me, since the Crescent and Star have remained a symbol of Constantinople ITL, does it have any place as a Roman symbol? And what's the prevailing symbol for Islam in this timeline?

I didn't know that. It's awesome to learn something new by reading AH.

So it could find a place in the roman flag? it would be oddly fit if it had a resemblance with OTL's ottoman one (but probably the double-headed eagle is the primary candidate, with the cross as secondary).

No clue about islam.


EDIT: I have a question about the black population in the Empire. How big is numerically? traditionally slaves are imported from sub-saharian Africa and we must also consider there is a significant quota of free men (like the ones freed during the Smyrnan war) so there would be intermarriage. and about slavery itself... if I'm not wrong in roman tradition they could have property, buy their freedom and their children weren't born as slaves (feel free to correct me).

EDIT2: Will the germanization of the Mainz Church speed up the conversion to Orthodoxy of Italians in roman territories? Despite the catholic polis presence I don't think many will switch up to Avignon...

 

[Evilprodigy]

It occurs to me, since the Crescent and Star have remained a symbol of Constantinople ITL, does it have any place as a Roman symbol? And what's the prevailing symbol for Islam in this timeline?

The Crescent and Star didn't become a Symbol of Islam until the 1970's or so because of decolonization when so many new Muslim countries had it on their flag (Tunisia, Algeria, Pakistan, Malaysia). So there is probably no difference from OTL in terms of Islamic symbolism.

 

[cimon]

The Black Sea has been a Christian lake for over a century, its become a very important trade source for everyone involved in the Partition of the Blue Horde and with that came a massive investment in naval power for the Vlach's, Russians, and Georgians.

Trade is one thing;a war fleet is another;Vlachia is too small to justify fleet expenses or if you prefer,Vlachia has too many land interests and problems to afford any fleet;ditto for Russia about its land interests and if it ever had a fleet it would be placed elsewhere(the Baltic) where her interests would be more frequently in danger than in the black sea.Georgia is too small to count.

 

[Arrix85]

Trade is one thing;a war fleet is another;Vlachia is too small to justify fleet expenses or if you prefer,Vlachia has too many land interests and problems to afford any fleet;ditto for Russia about its land interests and if it ever had a fleet it would be placed elsewhere(the Baltic) where her interests would be more frequently in danger than in the black sea.Georgia is too small to count.

No big of an expert, it's impossible to discount georgian naval experience so easily, they fought besides the romans in the last crusade and they naval squadrons in the caspian sea are capable of hurting the timurids.

The roman navy is very good, but it's not out of this world (and it's already debatable if it's the best).

 

[Komnenos002]

No big of an expert, it's impossible to discount georgian naval experience so easily, they fought besides the romans in the last crusade and they naval squadrons in the caspian sea are capable of hurting the timurids.

The roman navy is very good, but it's not out of this world (and it's already debatable if it's the best).

It's more that the other powers don't have much incentive to put a fleet into the Black Sea.

But that's represented in the story. With forty percent of the fleet defecting and the fight being so close run; every other navy combined basically equalled 1/5th the Roman fleet.

So not sure why people are complaining about over mighty Russian/Georgian/Vlachian fleets to be honest.

 

[Evilprodigy]

What needs to be remembered though is that this is the Mediterranean Sea we are talking about. This is a place that is calm and doesn't rage nearly as much as the other seas in Europe (with the possible exception of the Baltic) and that allows for very different kinds of ships to be constructed.

If the Roman Navy is the best in the world it depends on where it fights more than anything, lots of Rhoman ships would simply not be able to fight in the open ocean or anywhere not close to the coastline whereas ocean going ships would have a tough time in the Mediterranean because they (more or less) are not designed for those seas (lack of rowing ores on the bigger ships for example or less cannons to allow for thicker hulls to endure the harsher weather on the ocean.). Of course none of this matters to anyone from the Orthodox powers since they are in the same boat, but it's more important for comparing the Rhoman navy to places like Englnad-France, Portugal, Scandinavia, etc.

 

[Arrix85]

Speaking of naval engagements... we can guess where the next battle in Anatolia will be, the Allies will try to end the sea raids out of Amasra (the same reason they are trying to take Burgas). Since it's so similar to Tyre they may not get it, but it's a good place as any to draw Petros Doukas (and they can be reached by supplies from Georgia by sea).

 

[cimon]

No big of an expert, it's impossible to discount georgian naval experience so easily, they fought besides the romans in the last crusade and they naval squadrons in the caspian sea are capable of hurting the timurids.

The roman navy is very good, but it's not out of this world (and it's already debatable if it's the best).

Arrix Georgia has already a heavy land military budget for its size,maintaining a navy?requires money and constant exercising which does cost money;lack of such ability Arrix...

 

[Arrix85]

Arrix Georgia has already a heavy land military budget for its size,maintaining a navy?requires money and constant exercising which does cost money;lack of such ability Arrix...

I cannot help but think you're severely underestimating the Georgians. On land their troops are on par with the roman ones, at sea they cannot match the numbers, but maintaining a small effective force is not impossibile. If they have a squadron in the caspian, I think it's safe to say they have one also in the black sea (those ships during the crusades didn't appear out of nowhere).

And I fail to see the point over Georgia size, it looks big enough (with good lands to boot) to host 35 thousand tagma soldiers.


Question on naval warfare, in that age how many ships were needed to have a "squadron"?

 

[eliphas8]

Arrix Georgia has already a heavy land military budget for its size,maintaining a navy?requires money and constant exercising which does cost money;lack of such ability Arrix...

Georgia is very much the model secondary power, able to punch well above its weight, economically powerful, well organized, competently run from what we've seen, and has (had now) good relations with most of their neighbors and reasonable control over their own borders. Given that I could definately see them being to afford a relatively strong navy.