An Age of Miracles Continues: The Empire of Rhomania

Deleted member 67076

I would prefer a bit more toleration, but you can't win them all I suppose.

Oh, what's been going on in West Africa? Its been a minute since we've been there.
 
Romans might find more use if they taxed Jews a bit less but kept them banned from service in the army. Jews with more money can perform their crafts better by buying better tools and such. As it stands the Jewish population is a wasted opportunity as they have less ability to expand operations which would benefit the Roman state more than the taxes they get from taxing Jews more.
 
Basileus, what's the relationship between the Jews in Catholic Europe and the Jews in the Orthodox world?
Are there large Jewish communities in the Empire, and if so do they feel that they are persecuted?
Or are they all getting sucked into Sicily, where they'd be accepted as one of the main religionists?
 
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Yay for roman toleration, that's exactly what I was hoping a while ago about those little minorities. (although maybe Shiites in the Ottoman empire now are gonna have to put up with enraged sunni hardliners which may point out: "look at that shiite scum, cozying it up with the romans....")

So are the rebellions essentialy over? or the cities like Homs and Shaizar still have to be reconquered?
 
Nice to see some more integration and toleration, every little bit helps to keep Levant firmly Roman.

I just hope they don't get another Mad Empress to ruin all that good will.
 

Deleted member 67076

Yay, more religious toleration for the Romans.
The situation for Arab Muslims isn't any better than before, but at least it didn't get worse.
Here's to hoping that they (the minority groups, that is) enter the Roman cultural group.

Also a question: aren't the Alawites, Druzes, and Ismailis all Muslim? Are they being given tolerance since they're hated by the main branch Sunni Muslims?

Nah, even with Humanist ideas the Arabs don't make up a large enough percentage of Rome's base tax for them to be an accepted culture. It's too expensive to culture convert, though, since the Romans are burning through Trade ideas.

Oh I miss wrote that comment. Price of editing in newer thoughts I suppose.
I want the minority groups to enter the Roman culture group, not the Arab Muslims. The latter is basically impossible.

In Europa Universalis terms sure. ITL though it is definitely feasible.
It's how Andreas Niketas incorporated the Albanians and the Kurds, after all.

Someone really should make a mod nased on the timeline.
 
I recently started modding EU3 (made a great game with a precolumbian ethnic arawak civilization in the carribean) so I could try after my finals. It would probably be better in EUIV ofc, but I haven't played or modded that yet :/.
 
Hopefully Demetrios will not screw up with the Jews when Helena is gone, mayhaps the Levant can achieve some necessary stability before the big bad war starts.
 
I wonder if we might see a Bulgaria-like situation happen with the Arabs in the Levant. This is the second large-scale revolt with mass deaths we have seen there. Depopulation will be a serious issue and to fix it the Roman government could offer incentives for Greeks from the Heartlands or more Germans, Russians, Vlachs, Scythians, and others to come in and take the land to create a larger loyal population base in the territory for the Empire.

It would also help bring that land back into productivity after the war ends since what use is a farm without farmers to till the fields?
 
I wonder if we might see a Bulgaria-like situation happen with the Arabs in the Levant. This is the second large-scale revolt with mass deaths we have seen there. Depopulation will be a serious issue and to fix it the Roman government could offer incentives for Greeks from the Heartlands or more Germans, Russians, Vlachs, Scythians, and others to come in and take the land to create a larger loyal population base in the territory for the Empire.

It would also help bring that land back into productivity after the war ends since what use is a farm without farmers to till the fields?

that probably would not work for several reasons. 1st of all, for several centuries before its annexation, Bulgaria, particularly Eastern Bulgaria, was systematically depopulated in the Roman-Bulgarian wars that raged throughout the 14th and early 15th centuries, and its population was not numerous to begin with. the 15th century killed approximately 4,000,000 Muslim Egyptians before the great revolt, and they still had the numbers to wear down the copts into recognition of their independence. that is how large populations in the Levant are compared to the Balkans. secondly, Bulgaria already was dominated by the Orthodox faith, and lived culturally in the shadow of Rome. The OP has stated on numerous occasions that he does not think mass romanization of the Arabs will be successful because there are simply too numerous, and have a highly developed literate culture independent of the Greek world. Thirdly, if I remember correctly, Demetrios I or possibly Theodoros split Bulgaria into 2 principalities, and then subjected them to the beginning stages of hellenization. by this point, it has been at least partially culturally subsumed for over 150 years, not even counting their formerly close cultural orbit around Constantinople. additionally, I believe Andreas encouraged emigration into Bulgaria by cultural Greeks, although not to the same extent he did with southern Italy. he only acquired the Levant in the last 15 years of his reign, and all progress he was made was literally killed off by the resurgent "Abbasid" caliphate. after the time of troubles was concluded, the heartland did not have access immigrants to send into the Levant, and by the time it had recovered (although by no means did it have a surplus of population) the Levant had demographically recovered from the time of troubles. romanization efforts generally successful in absorbing much of the holy land, but the Arabs were too numerous for those to become a majority. finally, in Bulgaria, notwithstanding the early destruction of tyrnovo, the Romans used to their standard carrot and stick approach towards assimilation. In the Levant, for entirely justifiable and understandable reasons, they have almost entirely relied on the stick, and it cannot produce the lasting results of the carrot.
 
that probably would not work for several reasons. 1st of all, for several centuries before its annexation, Bulgaria, particularly Eastern Bulgaria, was systematically depopulated in the Roman-Bulgarian wars that raged throughout the 14th and early 15th centuries, and its population was not numerous to begin with. the 15th century killed approximately 4,000,000 Muslim Egyptians before the great revolt, and they still had the numbers to wear down the copts into recognition of their independence. that is how large populations in the Levant are compared to the Balkans. secondly, Bulgaria already was dominated by the Orthodox faith, and lived culturally in the shadow of Rome. The OP has stated on numerous occasions that he does not think mass romanization of the Arabs will be successful because there are simply too numerous, and have a highly developed literate culture independent of the Greek world. Thirdly, if I remember correctly, Demetrios I or possibly Theodoros split Bulgaria into 2 principalities, and then subjected them to the beginning stages of hellenization. by this point, it has been at least partially culturally subsumed for over 150 years, not even counting their formerly close cultural orbit around Constantinople. additionally, I believe Andreas encouraged emigration into Bulgaria by cultural Greeks, although not to the same extent he did with southern Italy. he only acquired the Levant in the last 15 years of his reign, and all progress he was made was literally killed off by the resurgent "Abbasid" caliphate. after the time of troubles was concluded, the heartland did not have access immigrants to send into the Levant, and by the time it had recovered (although by no means did it have a surplus of population) the Levant had demographically recovered from the time of troubles. romanization efforts generally successful in absorbing much of the holy land, but the Arabs were too numerous for those to become a majority. finally, in Bulgaria, notwithstanding the early destruction of tyrnovo, the Romans used to their standard carrot and stick approach towards assimilation. In the Levant, for entirely justifiable and understandable reasons, they have almost entirely relied on the stick, and it cannot produce the lasting results of the carrot.

I'm not talking about assimilation, I know that's unfeasible. By Bulgaria-like I was referring to the mass killings you mentioned, not the systematic Romanization.

This is less like, say, Romans assimilating Gaul and more like American settlers killing and/or deporting the Native Americans and setting up farms as they marched west.
 
I'm not talking about assimilation, I know that's unfeasible. By Bulgaria-like I was referring to the mass killings you mentioned, not the systematic Romanization.

This is less like, say, Romans assimilating Gaul and more like American settlers killing and/or deporting the Native Americans and setting up farms as they marched west.
There's just way, way too many of them. It would require a genocide of holocaust-like proportions. Even tyrnovo probably wasn't bigger than Serbenica. And you can't do that without major side effects, on the Roman psyche most of all.
 
There's just way, way too many of them. It would require a genocide of holocaust-like proportions. Even tyrnovo probably wasn't bigger than Serbenica. And you can't do that without major side effects, on the Roman psyche most of all.

Yeah it probably wouldn't but my point wasn't to kill all of them because that would be crazy. Just that they could fill in the economic niche of those who are already dead or going to die from this war with people who will be loyal to the Roman state in the form of immigrants rather than allowing the non-loyal population to rebound and refill their previously occupied land and employment. It's not about turning the Levant into a loyally Roman province because that would take centuries but to make any potential revolt easier to deal with. It's like having the Nile Germans in the Levant for example, though probably more of them given how many people seem to be dying.
 
Yeah it probably wouldn't but my point wasn't to kill all of them because that would be crazy. Just that they could fill in the economic niche of those who are already dead or going to die from this war with people who will be loyal to the Roman state in the form of immigrants rather than allowing the non-loyal population to rebound and refill their previously occupied land and employment. It's not about turning the Levant into a loyally Roman province because that would take centuries but to make any potential revolt easier to deal with. It's like having the Nile Germans in the Levant for example, though probably more of them given how many people seem to be dying.

That's a dangerous investment, one that I'm sure the Imperial Government will never make.
The non-Arab people taking economic niches will be resented by the Arab majority for taking profitable occupations that used to belong to them, and a single revolt is all that'd take for all that investment to go up in flames.
 
That's a dangerous investment, one that I'm sure the Imperial Government will never make.
The non-Arab people taking economic niches will be resented by the Arab majority for taking profitable occupations that used to belong to them, and a single revolt is all that'd take for all that investment to go up in flames.

Aren't most of the rebelling Arabs in the countryside either farming or herding? There has been mentions of the Roman army destroying villages, which does not really scream urban. It would be those countryside areas that the immigrants would go to and that's not exactly a profitable occupation that would create resentment if taken.
 
Aren't most of the rebelling Arabs in the countryside either farming or herding? There has been mentions of the Roman army destroying villages, which does not really scream urban. It would be those countryside areas that the immigrants would go to and that's not exactly a profitable occupation that would create resentment if taken.

Except it's the Majority occupation, and will be even after this war. Also, the farmers have even less reason to prefer Roman rule than the urbanites, because war is pretty much always bad for cities, while, notwithstanding destruction of villages, grain or whatever can be grown no matter who they're fighting for.
 
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