An Age of Miracles Continues: The Empire of Rhomania

[Denliner]

I just want the Romans to finally have some peace with those Latins. It’s getting annoying and frankly pisses me off how much they attack Rhomania. Feeds into the sort of true view that the Latins are blood thristy maniacs. I totally get Constantinoples apathy and lack of attention towards them.

Personally, I am looking forward for those European states to get into even more shit.

Since when have the Romans deserved any sense of "peace" with the Latins? They're just lucky that their enemies like the Germans, the Polish, and the Triunes are either too weak or too distracted to try and seek revenge against Rhomania, especially at a time where their greatest general Ody is dead and the Roman economy is struggling to recover. All three of those powers have legitimate reasons to absolutely hate the Romans for what they did like massacring Germans at Ulm and Wennenden for literally no reason but to just kill Germans or destroying Triune Bengal.

Their apathy certainly isn't helping matters either, since they could've shown Spain and Arles that they aren't backstabbing/useless allies in the Algerian campaign yet they still either committed sabotage or just not cared to even try and reach a hand towards the two powers that could've seen Rhomania as anything more than a laughing stock or legit monsters. The Romans finally have "peace", but they sure did the bare minimum for that "peace".

Plus, I'm pretty sure most Romans still hate the Latins to the extreme due to the Great Latin War, especially the warhawks, who want nothing more than the destruction of Latin Europe itself and to systematically commit genocide against them.

Face it, a true lasting honorable peace is just simply not possible as long as both people in the Latin and Orthodox worlds hate each other's guts. If Rhomania or the Latins weren't as bone dry exhausted or starving right now during the Little Ice Age, I bet they would be seeking another war right about now, just itching for an excuse to commit the same sins as their forefathers.

Maybe that's why I still believe in that dumb Nostradamus prophecy, as it does indicate that the Romans and the Russians will save the Latins' ass in some glorious campaign, and we'll finally get that clean slate where both parties actually want peace, but for now...this ain't peace. Not true peace, that is. It's just the interlude towards something else down the line.

That’s rude. Rhomania has literally been through so much shit. If anything, it should be Latins who become weaklings.

Daylight Savings had a great post on why the Latins aren't as strong as they were previously, and that Rhomania has a better time with the Little Ice Age, despite their weakness, if that pleases you.

 

[Lascaris]

Since when have the Romans deserved any sense of "peace" with the Latins? They're just lucky that their enemies like the Germans, the Polish, and the Triunes are either too weak or too distracted to try and seek revenge against Rhomania, especially at a time where their greatest general Ody is dead and the Roman economy is struggling to recover. All three of those powers have legitimate reasons to absolutely hate the Romans for what they did like massacring Germans at Ulm and Wennenden for literally no reason but to just kill Germans or destroying Triune Bengal.

Someone could sympathise, had the Germans, Triunes and Poles not burned their way to Thessaloniki for no apparent reason first. As it is I'm about as sympathetic as with the Germans in 1918. Not at all in other words.

 

[Byz]

The empire has spent the last 6 centuries being invaded by the Latin west for reasons varying from "because we can" to "you are heathen heretics and we'll make nice serfs of you" to "we didn't somewhere else to rape and pillage this week so we invaded you". Think it might have had some effect on the attitudes of Constantinople?

Rome is not innocent in this. They've been doing pretty awful stuff to their neighbors right back. Nor are the "latins" some monolithic block, no matter what roman propaganda ITTL says. The venetians don't even exist anymore and now France of all nations is being blamed for their crimes.

The Romanoboos in this thread make me root for the Triunes.

 

[Denliner]

Someone could sympathise, had the Germans, Triunes and Poles not burned their way to Thessaloniki for no apparent reason first. As it is I'm about as sympathetic as with the Germans in 1918. Not at all in other words.

Doesn't matter if you think the Germans deserved what they got for the Great Latin War. What matters is that the Romans massacred Germans at Ulm after winning at Thessaloniki, and that's just a straight up canon fact. That's the source of German antipathy against the Romans, and it's a natural response to what amounts to genocide. If you think the Germans deserved Ulm, then you don't understand why the Romans are lucky to be in the quiet peace that they are in now.

I just hope that Athena, Jahzara, and the rest of the Sideroi family don't squander it for the sake of the warhawks, because that would be the biggest insult to the soldiers that sacrificed their lives at the Great Latin War and the War of Wrath. Luckily they're smarter than those jingoistic bozos anyways....

 

[Pergington]

Doesn't matter if you think the Germans deserved what they got for the Great Latin War. What matters is that the Romans massacred Germans at Ulm after winning at Thessaloniki, and that's just a straight up canon fact. That's the source of German antipathy against the Romans, and it's a natural response to what amounts to genocide. If you think the Germans deserved Ulm, then you don't understand why the Romans are lucky to be in the quiet peace that they are in now.

I just hope that Athena, Jahzara, and the rest of the Sideroi family don't squander it for the sake of the warhawks, because that would be the biggest insult to the soldiers that sacrificed their lives at the Great Latin War and the War of Wrath. Luckily they're smarter than those jingoistic bozos anyways....

That’s forgetting the fact that the Germans invaded and utterly sacked Roman lands first. Although the Romans aren’t in the right here, it still bears note that the Germans started the war and began the brutality first, therefore they are nowhere near as innocent as you seem to make them to be.

 

[Cryostorm]

Not sure why Rhomania would want to be friends with Latin Europe, last attempts at that seems to have resulted in a succession war that devastated European Rhomania and then an alliance that all but declared war, made them give up gains from a defensive war, and strong-armed them at gun point to help in this little expedition, and I am not sure I would be all that helpful helping a bunch of muggers beat up someone else. Seems to me that Rhomania might be best off just telling Latin Europe to f-off.

 

[Denliner]

That’s forgetting the fact that the Germans invaded and utterly sacked Roman lands first. Although the Romans aren’t in the right here, it still bears note that the Germans started the war and began the brutality first, therefore they are nowhere near as innocent as you seem to make them to be.

I agree. The Germans aren't completely innocent either, but that hardly matters to them when the Romans committed a similar act against them in retribution, and so the cycle continues. I'm just saying, both parties have to forgive one another to achieve lasting peace, and looking at what both the Germans and the Romans want against each other...yeah that's not gonna happen. The Romans are in peace because the Latins are unable to attack Rhomania, not because they want it.

Not sure why Rhomania would want to be friends with Latin Europe, last attempts at that seems to have resulted in a succession war that devastated European Rhomania and then an alliance that all but declared war, made them give up gains from a defensive war, and strong-armed then at gun point to help in this little expedition, and I am not sure I would be all that helpful helping a bunch of muggers beat up someone else. Seems to me that Rhomania might be best off just telling Latin Europe to f-off.

Seems like the strategy going forward with Rhomania after the failure of Algiers. Just hunker down and do something else while they recover from the Little Ice Age, like in Asia, Africa, or Russia. They'll have a lot of time before the Latins return.

 

[Daylight Savings]

The thing to remember is that when it comes to atrocities, the people and even the leaders aren't really going to care who started it. It happened and they are dealing with the aftermath and they will be pissed about it. Knowing that the coalition army did horrible things in Macedonia doesn't make an orphan in Bavaria any better off after the Romans stormed through and killed his parents, whether he understands that there was no strategic value in the attack or not.

There are of course countries without legitimate grievances. The Triunes can get up in arms about the loss of Bengal, but they attacked the Romans in India and were attacked back in turn. That's the colonial game.

From our third person omniscient perspective we get to see the initiation of all these conflicts and a lot of them do actually start with Latin aggression, but people in story aren't privy to all of that. Additionally war was and in many places still is considered a legitimate tool of statecraft. The Romans sit atop numerous trade routes. A great many of the Latin attacks have been attempts to control those trade routes, it's not just for the sake of killing those that have slightly different beliefs.

 

[JSC]

For the record in the last 15 years Rhomania has:

Won a war against Triunes, Lombardy, Germany, Poland, Hungary and Ottomans simultaneously across 3 fronts
Secured their western border fully for the first time in about 1000 years while marching to the freaking Rhineland
Secured their eastern border for the first time ?ever? with an easily defensible border centred on a single point (Mosul)
Expanded both Egypt and Sicily's territories making them both stronger without making them strong enough to actually be a threat to Rome
Defeated their age old enemy and put them in a position where even in the event of another war core Roman territories (Anatolia, Levant) won't be fought over
Absolutely crushed their main rival in Island Asia securing new territories in the process
Shattered their secondary rival in eastern waters with only a minor commitment of troops

On the downside in the last update Rhomania:

Sent a pompous admiral with the bare minimum commitment who did the bare minimum necessary to say Rhomania fulfilled their treaty obligations *shudder* *horror*

Seriously though what were people expecting Rome to commit to an expedition that they didn't want to take part in; were more or less blackmailed into joining; and which mostly benefits rivals with only Sicily being a Roman gain from lessening of piracy. Did we think they were going to commit half the imperial fleet and 10,000 marines to storm Algiers and burn it to the ground?

As for the Roman admiral being stuck up I mean; wouldn't you in his position. Rome has reached a pinnacle of power that they haven't known since the reign of Hadrian and is fresh off winning a war against literally all of their major neighbours. In all honestly the most unbelievable part of the last few updates was Odysseus not demanding Demetrios III let him lead a Roman army into Northern Italy and smash flat the allied armies in 1637. I was beyond surprised that DIII was able to rein in what must be the majority of the nobility that thinks that they are more or less invincible now.

Rome at this point is stronger than the Ottomans ever were; with a core state that is far more suited to stand and reform into the present day. Rhomania is arguably the most advanced technologically and is definitely the most advanced administratively anywhere outside perhaps China. They have sent armies from the Rhine to Bengal, from Warsaw to Luxor and fleets from Cuba to New England to Italy to Malaysia to Korea. They have regained all 5 of the original Bishporics and the Orthodox faith goes from strength to strength with no end in sight. People realllly; and I say this from the bottom of my heart; really need to look at the general trajectory of Rome and not blow up at every single misstep they make. They have gone from an Anatolian rump, the biggest fish in a very small and very poor pond, reliant on mercenaries for their armies and fleets; to a world power with influence and allies on literally every continent save Antarctica and Australia.

Is Rome hated in Catholic Europe, absolutely. Does Rome in turn hate Catholic Europe, damn straight they do. There will come a time I am sure when relations with all the powers will normalize to an extent but 5 years after the largest war the continent has ever seen is not going to be one of them. As for Sicily; I am reminded of the phrase "they may be an asshole but they are our asshole"; this is Sicily. They are going to kick and scream and do everything in their power to show how independent they are but at the end of the day it would take an incredible series of events to see any invasion of Rome that based our of Sicilian territory; and at the end of the day that is all that matters. So they won't become and integral province of Rome but they also will always guard the Adriatic.

So concludes my multi-part rant

 

[E_x_c_u_b_i_t_o_r_e]

I just want the Romans to finally have some peace with those Latins. It’s getting annoying and frankly pisses me off how much they attack Rhomania. Feeds into the sort of true view that the Latins are blood thristy maniacs. I totally get Constantinoples apathy and lack of attention towards them.

Personally, I am looking forward for those European states to get into even more shit.

Like their states imploding from rebellion or via invasions? That's unlikely to happen, but come the ideas of self determination then we will see mass protests, and rebellions.

 

[Byz]

Friendly reminder that a unified concept of "latin europe" only exists in the minds of roman nationalists

 

[Pergington]

For the record in the last 15 years Rhomania has:

Won a war against Triunes, Lombardy, Germany, Poland, Hungary and Ottomans simultaneously across 3 fronts
Secured their western border fully for the first time in about 1000 years while marching to the freaking Rhineland
Secured their eastern border for the first time ?ever? with an easily defensible border centred on a single point (Mosul)
Expanded both Egypt and Sicily's territories making them both stronger without making them strong enough to actually be a threat to Rome
Defeated their age old enemy and put them in a position where even in the event of another war core Roman territories (Anatolia, Levant) won't be fought over
Absolutely crushed their main rival in Island Asia securing new territories in the process
Shattered their secondary rival in eastern waters with only a minor commitment of troops

On the downside in the last update Rhomania:

Sent a pompous admiral with the bare minimum commitment who did the bare minimum necessary to say Rhomania fulfilled their treaty obligations *shudder* *horror*

Seriously though what were people expecting Rome to commit to an expedition that they didn't want to take part in; were more or less blackmailed into joining; and which mostly benefits rivals with only Sicily being a Roman gain from lessening of piracy. Did we think they were going to commit half the imperial fleet and 10,000 marines to storm Algiers and burn it to the ground?

As for the Roman admiral being stuck up I mean; wouldn't you in his position. Rome has reached a pinnacle of power that they haven't known since the reign of Hadrian and is fresh off winning a war against literally all of their major neighbours. In all honestly the most unbelievable part of the last few updates was Odysseus not demanding Demetrios III let him lead a Roman army into Northern Italy and smash flat the allied armies in 1637. I was beyond surprised that DIII was able to rein in what must be the majority of the nobility that thinks that they are more or less invincible now.

Rome at this point is stronger than the Ottomans ever were; with a core state that is far more suited to stand and reform into the present day. Rhomania is arguably the most advanced technologically and is definitely the most advanced administratively anywhere outside perhaps China. They have sent armies from the Rhine to Bengal, from Warsaw to Luxor and fleets from Cuba to New England to Italy to Malaysia to Korea. They have regained all 5 of the original Bishporics and the Orthodox faith goes from strength to strength with no end in sight. People realllly; and I say this from the bottom of my heart; really need to look at the general trajectory of Rome and not blow up at every single misstep they make. They have gone from an Anatolian rump, the biggest fish in a very small and very poor pond, reliant on mercenaries for their armies and fleets; to a world power with influence and allies on literally every continent save Antarctica and Australia.

Is Rome hated in Catholic Europe, absolutely. Does Rome in turn hate Catholic Europe, damn straight they do. There will come a time I am sure when relations with all the powers will normalize to an extent but 5 years after the largest war the continent has ever seen is not going to be one of them. As for Sicily; I am reminded of the phrase "they may be an asshole but they are our asshole"; this is Sicily. They are going to kick and scream and do everything in their power to show how independent they are but at the end of the day it would take an incredible series of events to see any invasion of Rome that based our of Sicilian territory; and at the end of the day that is all that matters. So they won't become and integral province of Rome but they also will always guard the Adriatic.

So concludes my multi-part rant

Yeah fair. Looking back, Rhomania is on a massive high note but I guess the feeling comes from the fact they didn’t win through genius tactics and excellent maneuvers in the War against the Latins but outlasted and wore down their enemies until they couldn’t fight anymore. It lacks the glory and somewhat punch people feel while also making it feel like the Win wasnt a win which is what I think B444 was going for.

 

[Coyote_Waits]

ve made a new map to reflect the recent changes in the world but I forgot how to embed an image into posts here could I have a hand with that?

l’m on mobile right now but I don’t think the desktop interface is too different. 1) Quote Reply interface the portrait-rectangle image 2) Thread reply “attach file “

 

[jkarr]

That’s rude. Rhomania has literally been through so much shit. If anything, it should be Latins who become weaklings.

Yea no.

The "Romans" need to be knocked down til their stuck in only their little region

 

[Evilprodigy]

Yea no.

The "Romans" need to be knocked down til their stuck in only their little region

Dude. Chill. This is history fanfiction on an internet forum. Well-written, fun, and enjoyable as it may be there's no need for these sorts of vitriolic posts you're making.

 

[Pergington]

Like their states imploding from rebellion or via invasions? That's unlikely to happen, but come the ideas of self determination then we will see mass protests, and rebellions.

Rebellion will be more likely. It’ll be interesting to see how the Triunes will weather the storm considering out of all the states in Europe, there’s really does not have a unifying factor beyond the personal union,

 

[Curtain Jerker]

Good update and good conversations here.

Rhomania here fills the role of OTL Russia - a major European power that straddles two continents, has been attacked over and over (not to the same general devastation of Russia OTL of course), is the standard bearer of a different faith, and is different enough that they can be, rightly or wrongly, be labeled as an Other.

I understand why Rhomans ITTL probably to the modern day consider everything west of Belgrade one unified and homogeneous "Latin" block, even though it is a patchwork of states, cultures, and ethnicities. Similar to how many in Russia label everyone "the West."

I also can't see a rapprochement anything soon. Peace? Sure. Trade? As long as you pay your tariffs and port taxes. But integration into the wider European community? Not unless something drastically changes on both sides.

 

[minifidel]

All three of those powers have legitimate reasons to absolutely hate the Romans for what they did like massacring Germans at Ulm and Wennenden for literally no reason but to just kill Germans or destroying Triune Bengal.

The Germans, especially the German commoners and peasants, have legitimate grievances against Constantinople; the Triunes, though? The only Triunes affected by Roman actions are the military families who lost members in Theodore's expedition (not their fault) and the English merchants who most profited from Triune Bengal, and the latter have more reason to be pissed at the French (who have benefited from Roman campaigning in Germany despite instigating the Romans into attacking Bengal in the first place) than the Romans.

Yeah fair. Looking back, Rhomania is on a massive high note but I guess the feeling comes from the fact they didn’t win through genius tactics and excellent maneuvers in the War against the Latins but outlasted and wore down their enemies until they couldn’t fight anymore. It lacks the glory and somewhat punch people feel while also making it feel like the Win wasnt a win which is what I think B444 was going for.

They won out with genius logistics and excellent strategic maneuvering; IIRC even B444 has pointed out that it may be less flashy, but that Demetrios was no less a once-in-a-generation genius when it came to administering the war effort and the economic reforms needed to sustain it. The most brilliant administrator the Empire (and possibly Europe) has seen in decades was succeeded by the most brilliant commander the Empire has seen in a century (whose sister is almost as brilliant an administrator as her father!).

 

[Blaze]

It´s not hard to see why the byzantines continue to be loathed by even many sicilians when they don´t even try to establish good term relationships with Spain and Arles that are easilly the most sympathethic group towards them that goes back to the help Dragos Cel Mare provided them. And when even B444 said in the beginning of the War of Roman Sucession that both of them were highly sympathetic towards Byzantium, but they just decide to put them in the same category as Lombards or triunes

 

[Grammar Kaiser]

Yeah, the Rhomans have been kind of assholish towards Spain and Arles recently. Spain may have overreacted with the whole Eastern affair but Rhomania Should've consulted with those two just to be sure they weren't stepping on anyone's toes while thrashing Germany. Instead they took a "our needs are more important than yours" attitude and couldn't even be bothered to help the only Latin States they are Even remotely on good terms with!