On the one hand, England is even more screwed compared to France and that could certainly lead to more resentment from the English. On the other, hatred of a foreigner is a great way to unify a people and get them to stop bickering with each other.
An Age of Miracles Continues: The Empire of Rhomania
- Thread starter Basileus444
- Start date
On the one hand, England is even more screwed compared to France and that could certainly lead to more resentment from the English. On the other, hatred of a foreigner is a great way to unify a people and get them to stop bickering with each other.
The Romans are pretty far, and the englishmen suffered more than their french countrymen. The war on the rhine will only fuel the fire even more so. A rebellion is pretty much guaranteed, once OP henry is dead.
It's nice to see Odysseus hasn't become blinded by their successes, this is already a better result than they had any right to expect.
Hang in there.
With someone who went twice the length of Alexandros as his forebear, Kalomeros has large shoes to fill.
Taprobane is likely to eventually slip into the admixture if they are driven by a desire for trade profits. Even if Vijayanagara intends to annex everything, the local princes will resist their hardest while paying all the lip service possible. Best case scenario for Rhomaion is they hold a couple cities at the mouth of the delta like Chittagong/Kolkata ala Surat, zero-tariff trade agreements with local principalities in the region and ideally a strong riverine navy to enforce those agreements.
I think that some of us have been conditioned to wait for the other shoe to drop, when Rome pushes itself. I am glad they stopped at Bengal, and am curious of the route back, for both the Afghans and allies. While the Afghans and Persians take the land route, ships are perfectly logical for the Romans, and it would be par for the course if the Emperor's ship went down with all hands, leaving Athena as regent for her nephew and daughter.
I hope, this eases Odysseus' bloodlust, because while we have been reading about giants of the battlefield and globe marching monarchs, I am still a little uncomfortable with thinking about what is going on in Syria and northern Mesopotamia, and the lack of details so far. It's a morbid suspense.
Also, talk about scoring a massive strike on the Triunes, not just plundering but imploding their jewel of the east.
I hope, this eases Odysseus' bloodlust, because while we have been reading about giants of the battlefield and globe marching monarchs, I am still a little uncomfortable with thinking about what is going on in Syria and northern Mesopotamia, and the lack of details so far. It's a morbid suspense.
Also, talk about scoring a massive strike on the Triunes, not just plundering but imploding their jewel of the east.
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Vince
Monthly Donor
I'd like to think this would cool off Odysseus as Rome has basically won against all her enemies and by "won" they've stopped their war goals and inflicted payback on them:
- The HRE is ravaged and Theodore has the lunatic trait
- Ibrahim is dead, I'm assuming they'll get back the Pre-Mashhadshar border and the Ottomans are now an ally
- Lombardy is in a civil war
- The Idwait were grounded down even more
- The Triunes lost their most lucrative overseas possession. Though out of everyone they've probably don't care as they achieved their real goal of the Rhine border.
And now Rome gets to enjoy the lovely climate nightmare that is the little ice age.
A truly wonderful prize.
Vince
Monthly Donor
At least everyone else is too. On the plus side, at least the Romans and Ottomans have plenty of hard currency right now unlike the other countries I mentioned.
I am not convinced that Odysseus will be the one that will save the Arabs, because even with him as a mostly neutral Emperor to The Great Crime, and isn't personally invested in the destruction of the Arabs compared to the jingoist/anti-Arab factions in the Roman government (despite the cake and saw strategy and his overall brutality), he's still fairly apathetic and he could easily see The Great Crime completed without seeing his image tarnished by the Romans. I think he doesn't really care if people despise him as a murderer, especially foreigners, as long as Rhomania is restored to its former glory and he has accomplished what both he and Andreas planned before his death, which he has absolutely done with the War of Wrath.
Of course, if there's a politically expedient way for him to remove the Arabs without any more bloodshed, then he'll take it, but that opportunity has not presented itself as of yet. I proposed that Iskander would be the one that could save the Arabs, even if it resulted in them becoming political pawns for his own personal gain, but I generally see that as a more palatable outcome than seeing an entire ethnic group wiped out from their own homeland.
The Little Ice Age is affecting everyone. As much as we could see the Romans suffer along with everyone else throughout this tumultuous period, they do stand as the ones that could bounce back relatively well with the plunder from Awadh and the political stability of the Orthodox world (especially Rhomania).
Henri would obviously care. It's Bengal, one of the most lucrative colonies that a European power could ask for. Losing it is a huge blow to the Empire, but the war with the HRE takes priority over Bengal, of course.
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I think I called this out in an earlier post but Odysseus didn't even start this war until after the Raven's Rebellion was a year old, which itself was after Henri had effectively won in Lotharingia. There was still clean up to be done to be sure, but years have passed since that point. Basileus will tell us for certain, but I think it's entirely possible the war is long since over and Henri might even be dead by the time the news of the loss of Bengal reaches King's Harbor. Just imagine the effect that news would have on the rule of his son who would already be struggling to deal with balancing the 3 kingdoms in light of the continental gains and the costs of them.
I think a lot of people are overestimating how much the loot from India is going to spur the Rhoman economy. For one thing I’m willing to bet almost half of it stays in India as booze, women, new horses, and silks are purchased and enjoyed. More importantly “3 years of government revenues” isn’t nearly enough to reverse the near 75-85% contraction in the money supply that has come with the temporary collapse of fractional banking that has occurred in Rhomania. Nothing short of 3 years of GDP would really pull Rhome fully out of the recession though I’m sure with this infusion the worst affects will begin to ameliorate.
The 2 big beneficiaries of the loot if I had to guess will be Eastern Anatolia where I would imagine a disproportionate number of the soldiers come from; being the closest and hence cheapest to raise. The poorest region of the Rhoman empire will now have 1000’s of mini Dynatoi. I would expect lots of villages in the region to get proper all weather roads connecting to the main network and small businesses being started with the influx of capital. The 2nd beneficiary will ironically be whatever Rome takes from Persia in the peace treaty. The government will have a one time infusion of cash at just the point they need to pay for infrastructure, resettlement and fortification in the new territories. Outside of these two though the remainder of Rome is too developed, too populous, and too devastated from the contraction for the loot to be more than a small relief to get past the worst of it. It will take decades until Rhomania returns to the dynamism of the 1620’s even if the economy itself may be larger.
The 2 big beneficiaries of the loot if I had to guess will be Eastern Anatolia where I would imagine a disproportionate number of the soldiers come from; being the closest and hence cheapest to raise. The poorest region of the Rhoman empire will now have 1000’s of mini Dynatoi. I would expect lots of villages in the region to get proper all weather roads connecting to the main network and small businesses being started with the influx of capital. The 2nd beneficiary will ironically be whatever Rome takes from Persia in the peace treaty. The government will have a one time infusion of cash at just the point they need to pay for infrastructure, resettlement and fortification in the new territories. Outside of these two though the remainder of Rome is too developed, too populous, and too devastated from the contraction for the loot to be more than a small relief to get past the worst of it. It will take decades until Rhomania returns to the dynamism of the 1620’s even if the economy itself may be larger.
Seriously hope Ody got some serious trade concessions in exchange of all those petty state's freedom from the Viceroyalty. Some preferred tariffs and maybe even trading quarters in the coastal cities will be a serious boon, and really cement Rhomania as the dominant Western power in Asia.
Yep. Getting a trade port would be nice, but trade quarters would also help is Vijay is opposed to any territorial annexations.
Marching further east: Bengal was always going to be the end of the road, with at most a naval expedition of part of the force attacking Pegu by sea in conjunction with a Burmese land assault. Trying to march a preindustrial army overland between Bengal and southwest China is just a big fat ‘no, do not do this’.
Awadh and Bengal: I pictured the pair of them as typical warlord states. They can be strong, but if you put an axe in the forehead of the warlord, they have no backup or reason to continue. So Iskandar and Odysseus were lucky in the form of their opponents (but that seems to describe many good generals); if they’d faced Mesopotamia-level friction in India it would’ve burned them up well before they reached the Bay of Bengal.
Roman trading posts: But, to continue from the above, a key reason why they did not face such friction is that they did not take any territory, even in the form of trade quarters or concessions. Those would’ve been viewed as the thin end of the wedge of Roman occupation, and thus any demands for such would’ve drastically increased the willingness of the Indians to resist. Whereas here it was easy to just pay the westerners off and wait for them to go away. But the key is that they would go away.
Bengal and the Triunes: The loss of Bengal hurts, but it’s not crippling. The greater significance is that it was the concession prize for the English to make up for all the European swag going to France, and now said concession prize no longer exists, with resulting English irritation. So its significance isn’t really for now, but for a decade or two down the road.
This. A lot of the wealth is staying in India. Plus another factor is that the total estimate was that of the complete take, not just the Roman share. The Persians made up 60% of the army and so got 60% of the loot. Now a lot of them are spending their money in India, but I don’t see any reason why it’d be proportionately more than the Romans. So the Persians will be getting a bigger boost than the Romans, as the take is just quantitatively bigger and proportionally bigger as it’s being added to a smaller economy.
But this is just a one-time boost, not a fix. India is super-wealthy, but this is just one (very big) raid. The Romano-Persians are just skimming off the surface. They’d have to pull a Mahmud of Ghazni and raid a dozen times to loot themselves out of the hole.
And even then, it wouldn’t help in the context of the Little Ice Age. All the gold in the world isn’t worth crap if there’s no food to buy. (And actually crap would be more useful, since it could be used for fertilizer and maybe make there be some food. Gold just makes your corpse shiny.)
Great Crime: That update is going to be coming up soon.
Little Ice Age: Almost everywhere is going to get hit hard by this; there are a few exceptions but Rhomania is not one of them because the factors that make them the exceptions absolutely do not apply to Rhomania. It will be a bad and ugly time for Rhomania, with significant long-term repercussions.
Awadh and Bengal: I pictured the pair of them as typical warlord states. They can be strong, but if you put an axe in the forehead of the warlord, they have no backup or reason to continue. So Iskandar and Odysseus were lucky in the form of their opponents (but that seems to describe many good generals); if they’d faced Mesopotamia-level friction in India it would’ve burned them up well before they reached the Bay of Bengal.
Roman trading posts: But, to continue from the above, a key reason why they did not face such friction is that they did not take any territory, even in the form of trade quarters or concessions. Those would’ve been viewed as the thin end of the wedge of Roman occupation, and thus any demands for such would’ve drastically increased the willingness of the Indians to resist. Whereas here it was easy to just pay the westerners off and wait for them to go away. But the key is that they would go away.
Bengal and the Triunes: The loss of Bengal hurts, but it’s not crippling. The greater significance is that it was the concession prize for the English to make up for all the European swag going to France, and now said concession prize no longer exists, with resulting English irritation. So its significance isn’t really for now, but for a decade or two down the road.
This. A lot of the wealth is staying in India. Plus another factor is that the total estimate was that of the complete take, not just the Roman share. The Persians made up 60% of the army and so got 60% of the loot. Now a lot of them are spending their money in India, but I don’t see any reason why it’d be proportionately more than the Romans. So the Persians will be getting a bigger boost than the Romans, as the take is just quantitatively bigger and proportionally bigger as it’s being added to a smaller economy.
But this is just a one-time boost, not a fix. India is super-wealthy, but this is just one (very big) raid. The Romano-Persians are just skimming off the surface. They’d have to pull a Mahmud of Ghazni and raid a dozen times to loot themselves out of the hole.
And even then, it wouldn’t help in the context of the Little Ice Age. All the gold in the world isn’t worth crap if there’s no food to buy. (And actually crap would be more useful, since it could be used for fertilizer and maybe make there be some food. Gold just makes your corpse shiny.)
Great Crime: That update is going to be coming up soon.
Little Ice Age: Almost everywhere is going to get hit hard by this; there are a few exceptions but Rhomania is not one of them because the factors that make them the exceptions absolutely do not apply to Rhomania. It will be a bad and ugly time for Rhomania, with significant long-term repercussions.
What was the strategic objective of Indian raid if no concessions or trade ports were taken? To weaken Triunes and solidify Iskandar position as Shahanshah?
Those seem like a worthy goal and more than enough compensate for lost manpower and gold (I doubt Roman exchequer will see a large surplus even with loot, after accounting for active duty pay and money spent on supplies while on campaign). A Persia that is friendly for a generation or two will save Rome a lot of blood and money.
However, risking an emperor on such far flung raid is what makes this expedition Ody's adventure and not a cold pragmatic operation. Seems crazy to risk a head of state behing several enemy lines.
Will make for great movies and books though
Those seem like a worthy goal and more than enough compensate for lost manpower and gold (I doubt Roman exchequer will see a large surplus even with loot, after accounting for active duty pay and money spent on supplies while on campaign). A Persia that is friendly for a generation or two will save Rome a lot of blood and money.
However, risking an emperor on such far flung raid is what makes this expedition Ody's adventure and not a cold pragmatic operation. Seems crazy to risk a head of state behing several enemy lines.
Will make for great movies and books though
If nothing else, we're gonna see a different disrespectful Greek tourist as the Rider-class Servant of Fate/Zero...with an added layer of irony that you're gonna see Ody paired up with an Englishman who's the opposite of his personality in every way...
I'd question if it will last half. The precedent remains Khosrow II. At least Persia has been kicked hard enough in the meantime...
I mean, as Lascaris said, Persia has effectively been stormed over, and no matter how you cut it, its been conquered, disrupted economically for the entire time period, and likely isn't in as good a position as it was beforehand internally, even though the money will be a shot in the arm for recovery.
It should at least be mentioned that the alliance was with Maurice, not just the Romans in general.
I'm pretty sure its been said by B444 (I could be misremembering) that this is basically one of the last wars fought between the Persians and Romans in the timeline, but the reality is that even if it wanted to Persia is almost certainly not in the sort of state that it could face the Romans right now. The Romans effectively installed a new Persian Emperor with ONE field army of their own, and a second from Mesopotamia that grew over time. A defensive Roman Empire would certainly be able to field more, and have Georgian support to boot.
Naw, most likely we're going to see what happens in Mesopotamia with the final borders, and what economic and cultural melting pot emerges from this all. If I've got my money in the right place, we might well the vast majority of Kurds under Roman rule by the end of this, which I reckon could be a gift or a curse depending on how that relationship is handled, not to mention that a friendly Roman-Persian frontier, in the middle of a populated region is going to be fascinating and could have similar effects to Sicily, England, or other melting pots in history.