An Age of Miracles Continues: The Empire of Rhomania

[TheCataphract]

I remember reading somewhere (in PolChat?) where a poster was describing an interesting idea for a WW2 TL they had that they really liked but said they’d never write it because they lacked the ability and desire to do the amount of technical research that would make the crowd that knows the number of bolts in an Essex-class carrier happy. And I feel the same way when I think about this TL entering the industrial age.

One point I would make is that the people who know real WW2 ships down to their bolts are not likely your audience given how wildly different this timeline is from the real one. You audience would probably be the same people who have already gotten attached in the earlier parts of the timeline and want to keep going. We aren't going to care beyond the basics and if you say that, for example, a given Roman fighter plane was single engine, has excellent handling for it's time but is somewhat undergunned compared to it's opposition, that would be enough to satisfy me at least.

The technical bits are flavor. They're great to have in moderation and when it actually affects something. The story is what matters.

 

[Duke of Orlando]

Time for another purge of the Muslims then. Compensate the minority heretics with Muslim slaves. Is this what the Great Crime is going to entail?

That’s to similar to what has happened in the recent past ITTL to be deemed the Great Crime I think. I’m expecting Odysseus to do something similar to the Basil II did but to every single Muslim he comes across. That is a great crime, and when he pushes them across the border it’s left to the Ottomans to deal with these people. That is something disgusting and wrong enough to be called the great crime.

To B444 I agree with everyon else. I’m here for the story. The technical details just bog everything down. Be as technical as you want to be, not what you think a few of us want.

As for the monastery issue, offer them all a choice. Give the monasteries back and get one day a week to preach in the Church of Holy Seplucher, or keep them and lose the right to even have pilgrims visit. I think most will choose the first. I also expect that the Roman Empire is going to force holy land transfers as part of the peace deal as a bit of petty revenge since Eastern Christians, Shia, and Sunni all share sites out there. I expect Rome will start treating what Christians are left in the Ottoman Empire much like Russia did to the Ones in the OTL empire.

 

[Curtain Jerker]

I remember reading somewhere (in PolChat?) where a poster was describing an interesting idea for a WW2 TL they had that they really liked but said they’d never write it because they lacked the ability and desire to do the amount of technical research that would make the crowd that knows the number of bolts in an Essex-class carrier happy.

Know exactly what you mean. The post-1900 forum people and especially the WWII people on this site can be so pedantic as to be insufferable. That's part of the reason why I opted for Writers Forum for my TL - I can just tell stories that way and be judged on the merits/weaknesses of the characters I've created without having to get bogged down in too much research.

Or the White Palace can take them back and thereby alienate the Armenians, the Copts, the Russians, and the Ethiopians, who will naturally resent the loss of their recent gains.

And once again the Rhomans get played hard by a master leader on the opposing side. Oh well, nothing a few subsidies or the like can't fix.

 

[Βοανηργές]

Don't know what are the level of problems in Italy, but the most likely response on the empire's part on Ibrahim's shenannigans is an immediate declaration of war. The empire can't afford NOT to declare war.

The Demetrian Agreement isn't even 5 years old by this point of time. If D3 hasn't finished his preparations to strike, Rhomaion will have to accept the provocation and bide their time.

Oh well, nothing a few subsidies or the like can't fix

Don't forget postbellum "donations" from Persia proper and new churches in Mesopotamia.

 

[unix_fan]

an absolutely intolerable stain on the honor of our great empire. On the other hand, this will make the Ottoman warm much sweeter to read, when it comes.

 

[Sky Alkemade]

Honestly, to me what seems to be the best idea if you even wish to continue it into the somewhat present is a bit of a crash course with a focus on the more rhomania centric events throughout the centuries.

 

[E_x_c_u_b_i_t_o_r_e]

The colonies are proprietary colonies with royal charters granted by the monarch so they aren’t really under any specific kingdom, just the monarch himself.




It wouldn’t be for at least 100+ years ITTL. Maybe once the Industrial Revolution and the ‘next 50 years’ become the same thing, I’ll feel differently since it’s just one thing as opposed to the double it is now. But…

I remember reading somewhere (in PolChat?) where a poster was describing an interesting idea for a WW2 TL they had that they really liked but said they’d never write it because they lacked the ability and desire to do the amount of technical research that would make the crowd that knows the number of bolts in an Essex-class carrier happy. And I feel the same way when I think about this TL entering the industrial age.

I can see it happening all too easily. “What is the horsepower and technical specifications and improvements of the newest steam engine?” “What is the annual production of metric tons of coal in Rhomania, Triple Monarchy, HRE, etc.?” To answer those would require technical research that would take a long time, which I would not enjoy at all, to provide an answer about which I do not care, and would do absolutely nothing to contribute to telling the story and in fact be a net negative to telling the story because the technical consumed all my time and energy.

I enjoy telling stories about people, not tools. Tools come up to some extent, but that’s because they’re necessary as plot devices. However the relative simplicity of tools means there isn’t too much call for them to steal the limelight. Nobody’s asked me about the sail rigging patterns used by Roman battle-line ships, for example. (The answer is I don’t know, don’t care, doesn’t matter, and I’m not spending any time on it.) Some aspects of this have come up (see the bit about trying lead sheathing in the last update) but that’s because while it’s of minor importance, it also only required a minor amount of time to develop.

Once the Industrial Age hits, that changes drastically and it’s all about the tools, which are far more numerous and complicated. These issues of minor importance require major amounts of time, and the game then isn’t worth the candle. Already I have some ideas for interesting stories to tell, but those aren’t happening if I’m buried in demand for technical details. It’d be like if for my sci-fi universe, I couldn’t tell the story until I’d explained the scientific and engineering basis behind ‘dark-energy ion reactors’ and ‘interstellar drives’. It’s a giant hurdle that doesn’t improve the story, because they’re just plot devices, and makes me not want to try at all.



Ethiopian heartland is majority Christian, but the vassal kingdoms have a lot of pagans and Muslims and there are minorities of both in what is directly administered by Gonder.



And this is why I don’t like to get involved very much in theology. I get enough headaches already; I don’t need help there.

I’m very sympathetic to Andronikos I Komnenos’ response when two bishops in his entourage started arguing over points of theology. “Shut up right now or I’ll have both of you thrown into the nearest river.”

Also a very timely conversation considering the topic of the next update.

Good I don't think you really should be too technical. World building is a pain in the ass especially in such a awesome ttl like this. I've been making a story like building from a scratch up to a space faring empire and it is extremely tedious.

 

[E_x_c_u_b_i_t_o_r_e]

Hehehe, Keep laughing cause that's the last time you'll ever smile.

 

[Bronze]

It wouldn’t be for at least 100+ years ITTL. Maybe once the Industrial Revolution and the ‘next 50 years’ become the same thing, I’ll feel differently since it’s just one thing as opposed to the double it is now. But…

I remember reading somewhere (in PolChat?) where a poster was describing an interesting idea for a WW2 TL they had that they really liked but said they’d never write it because they lacked the ability and desire to do the amount of technical research that would make the crowd that knows the number of bolts in an Essex-class carrier happy. And I feel the same way when I think about this TL entering the industrial age.

I can see it happening all too easily. “What is the horsepower and technical specifications and improvements of the newest steam engine?” “What is the annual production of metric tons of coal in Rhomania, Triple Monarchy, HRE, etc.?” To answer those would require technical research that would take a long time, which I would not enjoy at all, to provide an answer about which I do not care, and would do absolutely nothing to contribute to telling the story and in fact be a net negative to telling the story because the technical consumed all my time and energy.

I enjoy telling stories about people, not tools. Tools come up to some extent, but that’s because they’re necessary as plot devices. However the relative simplicity of tools means there isn’t too much call for them to steal the limelight. Nobody’s asked me about the sail rigging patterns used by Roman battle-line ships, for example. (The answer is I don’t know, don’t care, doesn’t matter, and I’m not spending any time on it.) Some aspects of this have come up (see the bit about trying lead sheathing in the last update) but that’s because while it’s of minor importance, it also only required a minor amount of time to develop.

Once the Industrial Age hits, that changes drastically and it’s all about the tools, which are far more numerous and complicated. These issues of minor importance require major amounts of time, and the game then isn’t worth the candle. Already I have some ideas for interesting stories to tell, but those aren’t happening if I’m buried in demand for technical details. It’d be like if for my sci-fi universe, I couldn’t tell the story until I’d explained the scientific and engineering basis behind ‘dark-energy ion reactors’ and ‘interstellar drives’. It’s a giant hurdle that doesn’t improve the story, because they’re just plot devices, and makes me not want to try at all.

Firstly, as others have said, the kind of people who subsist on technical details as the number of bolts on an aircraft carrier mostly live in the post-1900 side of the forum. We're here to enjoy the ride, not ask the technical specifications of every machine used in our ride.

Secondly, you don't need to actually piece together stuff like that. TLs that delve into technical details can afford to do so because they're smaller in scope and cover a small length of time that the author is familiar with.
The trials and tribulations of Rhomania have already lasted for 450 years, with at least 100 more years before the industrial revolution. With that broad a scope, no sensible person would expect you to cook up plausible and complete details on everything.

Thirdly, I'm sure there'll be enterprising people here who will do all the legwork for you on matters like coal production and suchlike, because that can be reasonably expected to follow broad strokes of OTL, so, not that hard to compute!

Fourthly, I'd dispute the idea that tools are everything in the industrial era. There still are humans running the tools, and you shine best in describing the human side of things, history driven by men (and women!) and their needs, wants and wishes.

 

[E_x_c_u_b_i_t_o_r_e]

Firstly, as others have said, the kind of people who subsist on technical details as the number of bolts on an aircraft carrier mostly live in the post-1900 side of the forum. We're here to enjoy the ride, not ask the technical specifications of every machine used in our ride.

Secondly, you don't need to actually piece together stuff like that. TLs that delve into technical details can afford to do so because they're smaller in scope and cover a small length of time that the author is familiar with.
The trials and tribulations of Rhomania have already lasted for 450 years, with at least 100 more years before the industrial revolution. With that broad a scope, no sensible person would expect you to cook up plausible and complete details on everything.

Thirdly, I'm sure there'll be enterprising people here who will do all the legwork for you on matters like coal production and suchlike, because that can be reasonably expected to follow broad strokes of OTL, so, not that hard to compute!

Fourthly, I'd dispute the idea that tools are everything in the industrial era. There still are humans running the tools, and you shine best in describing the human side of things, history driven by men (and women!) and their needs, wants and wishes.

We can certainly help Basileus444 with that.

 

[Stark]

I agree with the rest. You seem quite well versed in general history, surely enough for the story to remain plausible in more modern time, even if you're not expert in industrial engineering. Plus, I'm sure readers of the timeline have more than plenty of technical knowledge if you would need it.

I like technical timelines, but they deal with minor pods a few years ago, not with several centuries of butterflies.

 

[Sceonn]

I'm still pissed that the German Kaizer got off easy in his own insanity. He should have kept his full mental faculties to truly appreciate his fuck-up.

 

[Cryostorm]

Speaking of the industrial age, if this timeline gets to the invention of tanks I will be sorely disappointed if the Orthodox world at least, and maybe everyone, doesn't call them cataphracts.

 

[Denliner]

Once the Industrial Age hits, that changes drastically and it’s all about the tools, which are far more numerous and complicated. These issues of minor importance require major amounts of time, and the game then isn’t worth the candle. Already I have some ideas for interesting stories to tell, but those aren’t happening if I’m buried in demand for technical details. It’d be like if for my sci-fi universe, I couldn’t tell the story until I’d explained the scientific and engineering basis behind ‘dark-energy ion reactors’ and ‘interstellar drives’. It’s a giant hurdle that doesn’t improve the story, because they’re just plot devices, and makes me not want to try at all.

I have not posted in this thread before because I've barely read through the entire timeline to make a significant contribution (Seriously, 800+ pages is hard to binge through in a couple of sittings with the original having no threadmarks....), but I would seriously hate for a timeline going on for almost a decade to end purely because of being bogged down by details on things that you don't like, although like what many of other posters have said, doesn't really need to be addressed in a timeline so far away from our own.

Like what other people said, Post-1900s alt histories can afford being so detailed in their mechanical work because they already have a paradigm of what technology could be like in that history based on OTL. In An Age of Miracles? Not so much, even if we base industrial technology on what we know now (A steam engine or locomotive could be entirely different in this timeline than what Britain was using OTL), so I honestly think trying to worldbuild all of these mechanical devices into existence in excruciating detail is a futile exercise, and it seems like a lot of people here are okay with just listing basic details or recognizing that this thing exists.

Even so, the human experience is more profound than the cold clanks of machinery, and your character work is truly awe-inspiring and is honestly your strength. In an age like the Industrial Revolution that has so much potential in creating new and exciting stories like revolutions, cultural movements, new ideologies, activism, and etc. from the common worker to the highest head of state is something that I would be excited to read about in Rhomania as well as the rest of the world.

Don't let the light of Rome be extinguished yet, please

 

[Sky Alkemade]

I would suggest that if you continue the story you keep the scientific discoveries and industrial revolution kind of like otl. It would be such a hassle to mess with that. Just focus upon national development and politics. Keep it easy and condensed

 

[minifidel]

I've always felt that the most important aspects of a story set in the Industrial Revolution have very little to do with the technical and technological details: while they're important, they're also nearly impossible to really account for (certainly to a level comparable to the "how many bolts are on a WW2 cruiser") because a lot of it occurred outside governmental control and records and tended to overlap geographically and chronologically. I think Industrial Revolution TLs really shine when they focus on the social and ideological changes allowed by the technical and technological changes, rather than those changes themselves. To me, it's the story of the Chartists, the appearance of labor unions and their friction with the traditional guild model, and the sudden realization that the world is so much bigger than any single person could possibly know.

 

[JSC]

Back to the latest update:

I can’t help but think this is too smart by half. Ibrahim has blunted the power of the Rhoman state in the Levant and created a short term financial crisis but has also angered even more the Rhōmanían state; which I didn’t think was possible; and created a handy dandy legalistic cover that a state has power over religious institutions within their borders.

A precedent that he could come to regret if/when Rhomania retakes the Levant and occupies at a minimum Mesopotamia and likely parts of the Iranian Plateau. It makes me wonder if “the great crime” isn’t wholly against people but also against property. Imagine Rhōmanía has taken the Levant, Mesopotamia, Tehran, Qom and other parts of the highlands and Rhomania decides to liquidate every single mosque under their control as compensation for the lost revenues in the Levant.

At a time when Mosques are likely centres of learning, centres of administration, and centres of community having them stripped to the foundation and carted off would be devastating to the legitimacy of any Persian Shahanshah who let it happen and would be crushing to any state trying to re-establish authority. Coupled with the utterly devastating loss of history and culture could very well imprint itself in the Persian culture as a “Great Crime”.

It would also make a bit more sense when in the modern day Rhōmanía “acknowledges but does not apologize” for the crimes committed if those crimes are not wholesale genocide but instead population expulsions; which though little different than genocide are functionally different; coupled with mass liquidation of all Islamic artifacts.

 

[Duke of Orlando]

Back to the latest update:

I can’t help but think this is too smart by half. Ibrahim has blunted the power of the Rhoman state in the Levant and created a short term financial crisis but has also angered even more the Rhōmanían state; which I didn’t think was possible; and created a handy dandy legalistic cover that a state has power over religious institutions within their borders.

A precedent that he could come to regret if/when Rhomania retakes the Levant and occupies at a minimum Mesopotamia and likely parts of the Iranian Plateau. It makes me wonder if “the great crime” isn’t wholly against people but also against property. Imagine Rhōmanía has taken the Levant, Mesopotamia, Tehran, Qom and other parts of the highlands and Rhomania decides to liquidate every single mosque under their control as compensation for the lost revenues in the Levant.

At a time when Mosques are likely centres of learning, centres of administration, and centres of community having them stripped to the foundation and carted off would be devastating to the legitimacy of any Persian Shahanshah who let it happen and would be crushing to any state trying to re-establish authority. Coupled with the utterly devastating loss of history and culture could very well imprint itself in the Persian culture as a “Great Crime”.

It would also make a bit more sense when in the modern day Rhōmanía “acknowledges but does not apologize” for the crimes committed if those crimes are not wholesale genocide but instead population expulsions; which though little different than genocide are functionally different; coupled with mass liquidation of all Islamic artifacts.

I wouldn’t be surprised if the Romans did this at all, along with handing historic mosques over to anyone but the Shia with a “guarantee” to protect them. A obvious bluff but one that I doubt the Ottomans will feel like testing it anytime soon. Honestly I wouldn’t be surprised if the Romans decided to be insane and loot every single Shia of anything of worth. I mean beyond your typical sacking of a city. I’m talking Mongol siege of Baghdad level looting, but with less books destroyed and more stolen. I wouldn’t be surprised at some random stuff along the way just to get petty revenge. Does Rhōmanía need every shovel between Mosul and Tehran? Of course not but it really annoys the other side and hampers their recovery. Or something equally ridiculous and petty. Everyone in the city must give up one shoe and we’re sending all the shoe makers back to Constantinople. I expect the Persian Pride will be one of the biggest targets during the war.

 

[Archereon]

Know exactly what you mean. The post-1900 forum people and especially the WWII people on this site can be so pedantic as to be insufferable. That's part of the reason why I opted for Writers Forum for my TL - I can just tell stories that way and be judged on the merits/weaknesses of the characters I've created without having to get bogged down in too much research.

*whistles*
Well for some people those deep technical details are actually quite interesting. Like I actually really am interested in what the industrial revolution looks like ITTL, and what modern military doctrines end up looking like. The closest major power (and that's kind of straining the term TBH) to Rhomania in the World Wars is probably Italy, who could actually be surprisingly competent on the rare occasion when they didn't have poor leadership and/or supply issues.
*whistles*

But I totally get the desire to focus on people over nitty gritty details. Luckily I imagine you'll have plenty of people who DO understand those details willing to do that research for you.

 

[Frame]

I forget is the current dynasty of the ottomans related to the Kommenids somehow?