An Age of Miracles Continues: The Empire of Rhomania
- Thread starter Basileus444
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Does this retroactively become a strategic victory if in 10years Spain and the Triunes have been swept from Eastern waters?
How does a defeat that was reversed completely and than some within 6 months count as strategic. What you are describing is an ATL. What if the Allies didn’t attack Skopje in 1634?
If you want an example of a strategic victory there are plenty in the time period OTL. Yarmouk, Plains of Abraham, Constantinople 1204, Stadtholden, Vienna. All incidents in OTL from which the losers never recovered or only did so after many years. The simple fact is in this time period the only way for a victory to be “strategic” was either to take a major city or to totally destroy the opposing army. Using the 30years war as an example; lots of destruction and loss of life but no victories of strategic significance after the first 7years. If there were more it probably wouldn't have been a 30years war.
Imagine if you will an ATL where Skopje falls 24hours sooner and the the relief army is caught strung out and systematically destroyed south of the city. The 12 days become the 7 days and without any kind of an army at all the Allies are able to take Thessaloniki on the run after a short siege and capture Athena. Now the allies sit at Thessaloniki and there is no army between them and Constantinople and the Roman Empire falls into civil war as the eastern armies stop listening to D3 and hoist another relative to the throne.
Hell I can argue that Skopje was the best thing long term to happen to the Roman Empire as it solidified once and for all the loyalty of the army. The western armies was battered and beaten repeatedly and felt that they had been abandoned by the citizens of the empire but they did not revolt; they did not disintegrate; they did not stop fighting for Rome. Instead they fought and fell back and regrouped East of Thessaloniki.
The Eastern armies even while this was happening did not move to break the Ottomans because the centre told them not to. When they were told they were abandoning the entire Levant even though they had the strength to take it they did so without question and boarded ships back to Europe.
Honestly 1634 I think is going to be seen as a watershed year by historians. The year when it became clear that Rome has finally moved beyond the self-destructive behaviours of the past and the army finally became a tool of the state rather than kingmakers.
Really think how amazing this was in hindsight. The Western army despite incredible hardships and a populace calling them cowards and traitors still left reinforcements for Thessaloniki making the city impregnable and still regrouped east of the city so the Allies could not concentrate on just a siege. They lost 2 commanding officers within a week of each other and they held together. The army did not suffer large scale desertions. No pretender to the throne was held on a shield by the Eastern armies. In all of this D3 did not worry about a Roman army marching in and deposing him.
As for the Mouzalon cousins; if I had to guess their family tree I’d bet that they had a grandfather in the loyal central or western armies in the War of the Rivers; or even better an officer in the Eastern Army that didn’t join the revolt. The cousins themselves I’m sure were often seen on the frontlines during the various wars at the century and always spoke highly of the emperor(s). They were always “good enough” even if not brilliant and it wasn’t until they more or less commanded all of Rome’s armies that their deficiencies became clear.
On the reformations of the Roman Army and insitutiona
D3 is arguably the first emperor who has not experienced directly the TOT and has had time to do something about it. Empress Helenheld sway for decades and so long as she lived the state could not trust the army fully.
Hence the army was loyal first, brave second, competent third. Rome came to rely on their institutional advantages during Helenas reign rather than their military advantages that they had been for the previous century and a half. The Roman armies purpose could be described by what they weren’t supposed to do rather than what they were. DON’T revolt, DON’T build a fiefdom, DON’T disintegrate. In the Long War and the multiple revolts and North Africa and the Great Latin War they fulfilled this mission to perfection. They were beaten often, but that was fine because they stayed in the field. They were crushed repeatedly but it was fine because they didn’t disintegrate. They were admonished repeatedly but it was fine because they didn’t revolt. Rome could always find more men, guns, and cannons to replace what was lost and the state knew this. What they could not afford anymore was the army losing a battle or not getting its way and than turning around and marching back to Constantinople.
1634 showed that the loyalty of the army no longer needs to be questioned. Hence the state can now prioritize competence. The Romans now are able to field armies as large or larger than any conceivable array of opponents so though bravery is still necessary the suicidal bravery that has been characterized through the last couple generations is also no longer necessary. Hence competence can be emphasized even more.
Where before it was loyalty, bravery, competence now it will be competence, bravery and the loyalty will be assumed.
As for the array of personalities that Rome faces. In all honesty what would you rather have right now. Pereriea with his 40years commanding and than *shrugs* if he dies of old age, disease, battle; or the Roman model where if the admiral dies everyone gets a field promotion and things continue on.
In the Great Latin War who thinks if Blucher died at 4th Ruse and Mackensen killed himself at Nikopolis 2 weeks later there was a 3rd person available and able to command the armies and keep them intact? Anyone spring to mind? Or more likely does the allied army break into national contingents and do their own thing.
Well when a Roman army lost its commanding officer and than it’s new commanding officer 2 weeks later they ended up with a 3rd commanding officer and things just...continued. In OTL you didn’t see that until the 18th or 19th century consistently and here Rome has it 100years early.
D3 is arguably the first emperor who has not experienced directly the TOT and has had time to do something about it. Empress Helenheld sway for decades and so long as she lived the state could not trust the army fully.
Hence the army was loyal first, brave second, competent third. Rome came to rely on their institutional advantages during Helenas reign rather than their military advantages that they had been for the previous century and a half. The Roman armies purpose could be described by what they weren’t supposed to do rather than what they were. DON’T revolt, DON’T build a fiefdom, DON’T disintegrate. In the Long War and the multiple revolts and North Africa and the Great Latin War they fulfilled this mission to perfection. They were beaten often, but that was fine because they stayed in the field. They were crushed repeatedly but it was fine because they didn’t disintegrate. They were admonished repeatedly but it was fine because they didn’t revolt. Rome could always find more men, guns, and cannons to replace what was lost and the state knew this. What they could not afford anymore was the army losing a battle or not getting its way and than turning around and marching back to Constantinople.
1634 showed that the loyalty of the army no longer needs to be questioned. Hence the state can now prioritize competence. The Romans now are able to field armies as large or larger than any conceivable array of opponents so though bravery is still necessary the suicidal bravery that has been characterized through the last couple generations is also no longer necessary. Hence competence can be emphasized even more.
Where before it was loyalty, bravery, competence now it will be competence, bravery and the loyalty will be assumed.
As for the array of personalities that Rome faces. In all honesty what would you rather have right now. Pereriea with his 40years commanding and than *shrugs* if he dies of old age, disease, battle; or the Roman model where if the admiral dies everyone gets a field promotion and things continue on.
In the Great Latin War who thinks if Blucher died at 4th Ruse and Mackensen killed himself at Nikopolis 2 weeks later there was a 3rd person available and able to command the armies and keep them intact? Anyone spring to mind? Or more likely does the allied army break into national contingents and do their own thing.
Well when a Roman army lost its commanding officer and than it’s new commanding officer 2 weeks later they ended up with a 3rd commanding officer and things just...continued. In OTL you didn’t see that until the 18th or 19th century consistently and here Rome has it 100years early.
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Oh man i just want to say that commenters like JSC, curtain Jerker, Han Empire and a few others make this "Story / TL" so much more richer and better with your feedback and speculation. All of you make this thread so much better and add in your own way in this story. Few other TL's have this.
What i am trying to say is thank you
Oh man i just want to say that commenters like JSC, curtain Jerker, Han Empire and a few others make this "Story / TL" so much more richer and better with your feedback and speculation. All of you make this thread so much better and add in your own way in this story. Few other TL's have this.
What i am trying to say is thank you
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Oh man i just want to say that commenters like JSC, curtain Jerker, Han Empire and a few others make this "Story / TL" so much more richer and better with your feedback and speculation. All of you make this thread so much better and add in your own way in this story. Few other TL's have this.
What i am trying to say is thank you
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Fully agree!!!!!! Those gents + @Evilprodigy really help flesh out the world of this tl in between updates. I appreciate the heck outta you guys!
What i am trying to say is thank you
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Fully agree!!!!!! Those gents + @Evilprodigy really help flesh out the world of this tl in between updates. I appreciate the heck outta you guys!
Your own definition of a strategic defeat was "I see a strategic defeat as something that needs to fundamentally change the course of the war." The Skopje/Twelve Days campaign fits that description for the reasons I outlined above. Just because it was reversed a few months later doesn't make it any less of a strategic defeat for the reasons discussed above. The side that loses a war can and does win strategic victories before their ultimate defeat. I don't think anyone here would argue that the Fall of France in 1940 wasn't a strategic defeat for the Allies just because the Nazis lost the war in the long run. There's dozens of examples like that, both OTL and ITTL. We can agree to disagree on this of course.
This (and your follow-up post right after this one) are excellent points and I don't have anything to add here as you nailed it.
The Laskaris guys are cousins (or maybe brothers?) not Mouzalon. Michael was the Domestikos of the West, Theodoros the Domestikos of the East for the majority of the war. Mouzalon was the Megas Domestikos, coordinating everything from Constantinople while the cousins/brothers where the main generals in the field in their respective theaters. Before the Ottmans jumped in Mouzalon was in the field in the Danube theater but after it became a two-front war he left to go to Constantinople.
After the war Mouzalon retired and Theodoros Laskaris became the new Megas Domestikos where presumably he's planning for the invasion of Ottoman Mesopotamia once the truce ends in the early 1640s.
I'm assuming the Laskarid cousin/brothers were Army lifers which means they probably fought at Nineveh and the other battles vs Iskander in the early 1600s depending on how old they were at the time.
I think we are going to have to disagree on the framing of 1634. I see the entire thing as “there was going to be a campaign that year and there was. It definitely did more damage to Rome than expected but nothing catastrophic or strategically threatening” hence no it was not a fundamental change in the war. If they had attacked at Vidin they likely would have also slowly ground their way along the Danube again though with less success than the previous year but still causing more damage.
As for France in 1940; absolutely strategic defeat that was reversed in only 4 years. Of course the 2 who suffered the defeat were relatively minor players in reversing it. It was Soviet manpower and American industry that allowed France to be recovered by the Allies. If Germany wins in USSR in 1941 or 1942 France is likely still speaking German today. France and UK on their own could never have invaded the continent on their own in anything less than a generation.
Laskaris cousins/brothers right! Though again it wouldn’t surprise me if just about all of the senior leadership at the start of the Great Latin War had pretty similar biographies so it could still work for Mouzalon as well. All loyal and brave men promoted beyond their capacity to command. Or perhaps; and the story suggests it is; Mouzalon was a fine organizer who makes a decent CinC but should have stayed away from field command.
Cryostorm
Donor
I think you mean Semarang, Sunda is the Spanish ally/protectorate/vassal, and I think it has or at least been broken to the point it won't recover. But since the whole royal family was put into slavery I think it's a good bet it's gone.
Cryostorm
Donor
As for fashion I think you might see a lot of parallels to the OTL Ottomans, since I believe quite a bit rose up from the Greek portions of the empire or the areas where there was a lot of mixing between the two. Though Japanese, Ethiopian, and Russian influences may also be seen, not to mention a dash of Malay, Mexican, and Taprobane, due to their exoticness. One thing you are likely to see is a serious attempt by the Imperial house and aristocracy to go in a different direction than the Latins.
Interestingly though is that taking Japanese and Ethiopian styles, even with a Rhoman touch, will probably further entrench the belief in the west the Rhomania is corrupted by mixing with eastern and southern barbarians and should not be viewed as European or descendants of Rome.
Interestingly though is that taking Japanese and Ethiopian styles, even with a Rhoman touch, will probably further entrench the belief in the west the Rhomania is corrupted by mixing with eastern and southern barbarians and should not be viewed as European or descendants of Rome.
Speaking of fashion, what does the emperor's loros garment currently look like? Are they even wearing it?
Better be damn sexy. In not too long we're gonna have an Emperor Odysseus and with a name like that, dude's gotta be looking fine as hell.
Ah yes, never underestimate the West's pathological fear of nefarious "Orientalism" sneaking in and corrupting the Pure Occident.
I’d like to get away from all this high minded talk and get back to the last couple updates:
I can’t help but feel Spain has screwed the pooch here with regards to this campaign already. They caught the New Constantinople blockading force and destroyed it but failed to properly follow up on anything. They didn’t break the siege so Rome client still won in the end; and they didn’t follow up by striking at New Constantinople instead leaving to attack Pahang.
I feel like this was a strategic error brought by Spain’s lesser understanding. Like I mentioned in a previous update Rome’s strength in the East is their infrastructure. Spain on the other hand is going about this campaign right now like Rome’s advantage is their ships. Maybe that changes in the next couple updates but if it doesn’t than Spain is going to win all the sea battles and than suddenly see 25 Roman warships come over the horizon and smash them flat in 2 or 3 years.
I also see that being what causes Vijiyanagar allying Rome. They see Spain winning all these battles and approach a seemingly weakened Rome with an offer of alliance including the use of one of their 2nd rates. Rome accepts and is able to sweep Spain, Triunes, and Lotharingia from the east and suddenly Vijiyanagar realizes they backed the wrong horse but it is too late to stop it. It would also be a nice comeuppance to a dynasty that for 2 centuries now has more or less gone from strength to strength suddenly help create their own rival because they were too smart by half.
I can’t help but feel Spain has screwed the pooch here with regards to this campaign already. They caught the New Constantinople blockading force and destroyed it but failed to properly follow up on anything. They didn’t break the siege so Rome client still won in the end; and they didn’t follow up by striking at New Constantinople instead leaving to attack Pahang.
I feel like this was a strategic error brought by Spain’s lesser understanding. Like I mentioned in a previous update Rome’s strength in the East is their infrastructure. Spain on the other hand is going about this campaign right now like Rome’s advantage is their ships. Maybe that changes in the next couple updates but if it doesn’t than Spain is going to win all the sea battles and than suddenly see 25 Roman warships come over the horizon and smash them flat in 2 or 3 years.
I also see that being what causes Vijiyanagar allying Rome. They see Spain winning all these battles and approach a seemingly weakened Rome with an offer of alliance including the use of one of their 2nd rates. Rome accepts and is able to sweep Spain, Triunes, and Lotharingia from the east and suddenly Vijiyanagar realizes they backed the wrong horse but it is too late to stop it. It would also be a nice comeuppance to a dynasty that for 2 centuries now has more or less gone from strength to strength suddenly help create their own rival because they were too smart by half.
The more I look at this current situation, and the more I think that the Triunes aren't actually a huge problem for Rome? To a degree, it even seems the Roman government agrees with that take - the idea of them being Jupiter and Saturn with their own satellites implies they can exist without clashing.
The natural zones of influence for both Great Powers seem to not overlap if they're willing to be reasonable with one another. The Triunes are interested in France, the Lowlands, North America, etc, and face the Accord and Germany as foes. Rome is interested in the Balkans/Haemic Peninsula, Italy, the Middle East, and the Far East. The Romans are now facing the Accord too, and have had to face the Germans multiple times in the past.
The Triple Monarchy won't be able to eat all of Germany, and even if they did, it would be absolute insanity to then march even further to Constantinople. Similarly, a Rome that ate all of Italy wouldn't then be interested in marching to Paris or King's Landing.
The Accord has now messed with the Romans during a fight to the death with Germany, rolled into Romania-in-the-East, and has also furiously opposed Triune expansion in Germany. Maybe there should be a repeat of the French-Ottoman alliance of OTL, which would give both powers a very free hand in their areas of interest.
The natural zones of influence for both Great Powers seem to not overlap if they're willing to be reasonable with one another. The Triunes are interested in France, the Lowlands, North America, etc, and face the Accord and Germany as foes. Rome is interested in the Balkans/Haemic Peninsula, Italy, the Middle East, and the Far East. The Romans are now facing the Accord too, and have had to face the Germans multiple times in the past.
The Triple Monarchy won't be able to eat all of Germany, and even if they did, it would be absolute insanity to then march even further to Constantinople. Similarly, a Rome that ate all of Italy wouldn't then be interested in marching to Paris or King's Landing.
The Accord has now messed with the Romans during a fight to the death with Germany, rolled into Romania-in-the-East, and has also furiously opposed Triune expansion in Germany. Maybe there should be a repeat of the French-Ottoman alliance of OTL, which would give both powers a very free hand in their areas of interest.
Unless I'm misremembering, Semarang isn't a Roman client and swept the field? I'm confused.
I think to an extent you're right - but the infrastructure does need to be organised, and I'm expecting that this will be the fundamental change that shifts the war for the Romans. Being able to pump out battle-line ships (even if lighter than in Europe) in numbers would transform things. I'm not sure however that it'll cause Vijayanagar to back the Romans - with the talk of respecting strength, they may well back the Spanish. What is interesting is that with the Spanish using their new route, if the Romans are able to use it in reverse, it could be possible for the Romans to avoid India altogether in their shipping. If the Romans suddenly start taking a huge chunk of trade from Indonesia to Rhomania directly rather than via India, that could be a real economic upset to Vijayanagar, especially if the journey can be done safely, reliably.
Taking that idea further, is the potential for the Romans to trace the Spanish route in reverse - one one hand to allow Rhomania in the East to be able to apply force in Atlantic theatres if required (or at least to send ships to cause havoc on the Cape) but also the potential to find the Chagos Islands. That would allow the Romans to have a base of operations in the middle of the Indian Ocean. Not a main centre, but a place to refit between legs of a journey and strike the African East Coast, Australia and India. Whilst the Romans aren't really in a place of demographic success that they can go full settler-colony, but with that knowledge they can in theory also exploit the west coast of Australia and expand the idea of Rhomania-in-the-East to include Australia in various forms (clients, colonies, etc).
Funny thought, but I doubt it'll happen, but I love the image of Yemen worrying loads about potential Roman attacks from the north, or Ethiopia, or Oman (essentially NW, SW, NE, but is then completely surprised by an attack in the SE by Rhomania-in-the-East. Malay-Roman sailors coming to secure the lines of communication? *chefs kiss*
Mataram is the Roman client on Java. They were locked in a struggle for primacy in central Java with Semarang, who was able to resist them with Triune backing. However, part of the peace treaty between the Romans and the Triunes included the latter giving up support to Semarang. As a result, the Mataramese took it over after a lengthy siege.
Meanwhile, Sunda, on Java's west coast, is a Spanish client. This Spanish flotilla is based out of there. During the Mataram-Semarang siege, the Spanish flotilla destroyed the Romans blockading Semarang while a Sunda land force, using much better weapons provided by the Spanish, caused lots of damage to the Mataramese. However, that wasn't enough to break the siege and the Mataramese destroyed the Semarang.
Now Java consists of the Spanish backed Sunda on the western third and the Roman-backed (for now...) Mataram in the central third. Not sure who, if anyone major, controls the eastern third at this time.
Meanwhile, Sunda, on Java's west coast, is a Spanish client. This Spanish flotilla is based out of there. During the Mataram-Semarang siege, the Spanish flotilla destroyed the Romans blockading Semarang while a Sunda land force, using much better weapons provided by the Spanish, caused lots of damage to the Mataramese. However, that wasn't enough to break the siege and the Mataramese destroyed the Semarang.
Now Java consists of the Spanish backed Sunda on the western third and the Roman-backed (for now...) Mataram in the central third. Not sure who, if anyone major, controls the eastern third at this time.
What would they exactly do? Siege Mataram cities? Even with their client attacking they weren't even able to do any sizable damage. Mataram though weak in navy has absolute supremacy on land. It would be foolish to contest them on land and besides their objective is to take out their competitor A. K. A "Rome". Now I'm not exactly sure why they didnt siege New constantinople but they surely must have some plan in mind. Maybe because they saw Pahang as a bigger threat they chosed to go there, since they've crushed alot of their ships. They probably think that new Constantinople is pretty much in their bag and would take it when they've dealt the problem in Pahang.
Of course this little bit of detail will probably bite the spanish back if they get bogged down. By the time they move to attack the city will and already be reinforced from the other katephanos and local ally.
Greece: There’s the theme of Hellas, which is most of OTL Greece minus Macedonia, so most Romans at this point ITTL would think of that when Hellas is mentioned. That said, with Anatolia remaining Greek, Ionia will definitely always be remembered as part of classical Greece, rather than often getting mostly forgotten.
I’m not familiar with their OTL history, but would say that their TTL history is effectively the same. I don’t see how TTL events would affect them much.
I’m really not a fashion person; I’m a jeans and t-shirt/sweatshirt guy.
That said, the main reason that portraits of TTL figures are so rare is that I look at OTL European portraits and so many of them feel off for reasons. Anyone with powdered wigs are out, and many are clean-shaven. Also stuff like those huge lace neck things I just think look stupid, and I want my Romans to look cool.
So Roman fashion would be a mix of east and west. I remember making a comment back in the late 1500s that there was a fad for ‘Damascene’ style clothing in the high society.
They’re definitely wearing it, at least for formal occasions. That’s a classic. As for how it looks, they’d be looking similar to those of the early Palaiologoi. I figure that the TTL Laskarids of the same time period (late 1200s) would wear an identical garment, and the historical prestige behind said style has kept it unchanged for the last 350 years.
Plus I’m pretty sure I used an OTL image of Manuel II in his loros for one of the Laskarid emperors.
One issue Pereira had is that by the time he showed up in Java, he didn’t have much time before the monsoon curtailed operations. Trying to launch an amphibious assault against a fortified position in a monsoon with 17th century tech…yeah, I’ll pass. Going after ships is something he can do on the quick. Plus going after Roman vessels only requires ships, which he has, while taking down Roman forts requires ships and ground forces, and he doesn’t have the latter.
The last point, the need for both ships and ground forces on both sides, will be absolutely key for how this all goes.
The Triunes and Rhomania don’t have to be rivals. I’m viewing them as similar to France and Russia pre-1870. They’re not necessarily rivals, but they eye each other and can go and annoy each other. And if one goes crazy, the other will intervene.
Java: The western third of Java is Sunda, aligned with the Spanish. About 60% of the rest of Java is now Mataram, which has just finished destroying the Semarang Sultanate. The capital was saved for last. The little bit of Java left is Blambangan in the far east of Java, under Balinese influence.
Current doesn’t work that way. The roaring forties are great from getting from South Africa to west Australia fast, but they just go in that direction. If the Romans wanted to bypass India, they’d be forgoing the traditional trade routes that facilitated commerce between Egypt and India for centuries. They could take the South Equatorial current, which would take them from Java to about Zanzibar but then have to bump their way up the east African coast. It’d be a long haul in an environment that is not healthy for Romans.
I’m not familiar with their OTL history, but would say that their TTL history is effectively the same. I don’t see how TTL events would affect them much.
I’m really not a fashion person; I’m a jeans and t-shirt/sweatshirt guy.
That said, the main reason that portraits of TTL figures are so rare is that I look at OTL European portraits and so many of them feel off for reasons. Anyone with powdered wigs are out, and many are clean-shaven. Also stuff like those huge lace neck things I just think look stupid, and I want my Romans to look cool.
So Roman fashion would be a mix of east and west. I remember making a comment back in the late 1500s that there was a fad for ‘Damascene’ style clothing in the high society.
They’re definitely wearing it, at least for formal occasions. That’s a classic. As for how it looks, they’d be looking similar to those of the early Palaiologoi. I figure that the TTL Laskarids of the same time period (late 1200s) would wear an identical garment, and the historical prestige behind said style has kept it unchanged for the last 350 years.
Plus I’m pretty sure I used an OTL image of Manuel II in his loros for one of the Laskarid emperors.
One issue Pereira had is that by the time he showed up in Java, he didn’t have much time before the monsoon curtailed operations. Trying to launch an amphibious assault against a fortified position in a monsoon with 17th century tech…yeah, I’ll pass. Going after ships is something he can do on the quick. Plus going after Roman vessels only requires ships, which he has, while taking down Roman forts requires ships and ground forces, and he doesn’t have the latter.
The last point, the need for both ships and ground forces on both sides, will be absolutely key for how this all goes.
The Triunes and Rhomania don’t have to be rivals. I’m viewing them as similar to France and Russia pre-1870. They’re not necessarily rivals, but they eye each other and can go and annoy each other. And if one goes crazy, the other will intervene.
Java: The western third of Java is Sunda, aligned with the Spanish. About 60% of the rest of Java is now Mataram, which has just finished destroying the Semarang Sultanate. The capital was saved for last. The little bit of Java left is Blambangan in the far east of Java, under Balinese influence.
Current doesn’t work that way. The roaring forties are great from getting from South Africa to west Australia fast, but they just go in that direction. If the Romans wanted to bypass India, they’d be forgoing the traditional trade routes that facilitated commerce between Egypt and India for centuries. They could take the South Equatorial current, which would take them from Java to about Zanzibar but then have to bump their way up the east African coast. It’d be a long haul in an environment that is not healthy for Romans.