I'm a big Roman patriot but i gotta say the conquest of all of Persia is a terrible idea. It would sap too many resources away that our glorious empire desperately needs to hold down it's rightful Italian holdings and bringing Island asia into the empire. It would look awsome on a map but i can't see any material benefit to such a thing
An Age of Miracles Continues: The Empire of Rhomania
- Thread starter Basileus444
- Start date
Its interesting how the Spanish seem to have produced an almost a post-decision rationalisation - origionally the King ordered this out of vengeance for his son (if I recall), now it is some sort of justified pre-emptive attack. Discussion has typically accounted for Arles and the Accord, but Spain ignores that in their assumptions on Roman foreign policy. Anyone would think that the German invasion was the Roman invasion of Germany? I'm finding it fascinating how you've managed to write this sort of subconscious pro-latin bias into the Spanish who collectively ignored the Germans actions, instead only focusing on the retaliation by the Romans. The Romans see themselves as put-upon and only retaliating to the Germans, but to others seem arrogant. The Romans are in the wake of being invaded by two sides by their biggest neighbours and their allies, but instead the Spanish are complaining that the Romans aren't bankrupting themselves to assist against the Triunes?
Bizarrely, this sort of action gives the Romans the space to take N.Italy. The Accord is dangerous mostly because of Spain, who has already attacked the Romans. Tolerating that more that justifies the Romans doing what they will to conclude a defensive war. If Arles goes against that action, the Romans can ask why they tolerated the Spanish invasions in the East against their ally of literal centuries over the idea that the Romans would inevitably invade Arles, when they've been allies, it should be repeated, for centuries - by the Spanish justifications then Arles is about to be conquered by Spain - according to their own neurotic justifications for this invasion! I think it'd be really interesting to see the Arles response to the Spanish in this case, as it may well decide if the Accord exists to resist the Triunes, the Romans, both, or as the sphere of influence of the Spanish? The other members too.
I do like the imagery of a Europe split between the Romans and Russias in the East, the Spanish and Accord in the West, and the Triunes in this sort of Middle-North, with the EofN in the North.
Instead of the potential of a Mediterranean controlled by allied powers (excluding the Marinids of North Africa) they're rationalising themselves into long-term conflicts with the Romans. It makes you wonder what potential there is for Roman-Marinid co-operation. I'd be curious to know if the Marinids would rather work with the Romans against Spain, over staying neutral. Heck, maybe they'd side with Spain against the Romans!
Aaaaah, so much to think about, so many consequences! *brain melts*
Sad times regarding the New World, but it also makes sense with this position in Spain.
Bizarrely, this sort of action gives the Romans the space to take N.Italy. The Accord is dangerous mostly because of Spain, who has already attacked the Romans. Tolerating that more that justifies the Romans doing what they will to conclude a defensive war. If Arles goes against that action, the Romans can ask why they tolerated the Spanish invasions in the East against their ally of literal centuries over the idea that the Romans would inevitably invade Arles, when they've been allies, it should be repeated, for centuries - by the Spanish justifications then Arles is about to be conquered by Spain - according to their own neurotic justifications for this invasion! I think it'd be really interesting to see the Arles response to the Spanish in this case, as it may well decide if the Accord exists to resist the Triunes, the Romans, both, or as the sphere of influence of the Spanish? The other members too.
I do like the imagery of a Europe split between the Romans and Russias in the East, the Spanish and Accord in the West, and the Triunes in this sort of Middle-North, with the EofN in the North.
Instead of the potential of a Mediterranean controlled by allied powers (excluding the Marinids of North Africa) they're rationalising themselves into long-term conflicts with the Romans. It makes you wonder what potential there is for Roman-Marinid co-operation. I'd be curious to know if the Marinids would rather work with the Romans against Spain, over staying neutral. Heck, maybe they'd side with Spain against the Romans!
Aaaaah, so much to think about, so many consequences! *brain melts*
Sad times regarding the New World, but it also makes sense with this position in Spain.
I think the Rhomans should strike a deal with arles giving them a good chunk of lombardy. Now any latin presence in Italy isn't preferable however id say Arles have historically been very reasonable as Barbarians go throughout history. Perhaps they could also be persuaded in trying to take Aragon which would spite spain quite a bit without direct Rhoman conflict with spain. Not to mention they have a Rhoman ruling family who might still have some inclination to help their mother country
Minor nitpick but aren't these described as 72 gun ships in the previous piece describing the navies of the era?
So 3 70s and at a minimum 5 50s or bigger when the Greeks have in the whole east 1 60?, 6 50s and a dozen 44-44s. And the 50s can't mount something heavier than 18 pdrs when the 70s have 24 pdrs in the lower gun-deck. To go by the British 1719 establishments as I'm lazy and the 1744 ones too advanced for the era, the total throw-weight of each class would be:
70 gun: 1044 pdr (26x24 26x12 18x6)
60 gun: 870 pdr (24x24 26x9 10x6)
50 gun: 630 pdr (22x18 22x9 6x6)
40 gun: 384 pdr (20x12 20x6)
If every single imperial ship was in one place, which is bluntly unlikely at least in the start of the war and you include the 4th rates in the equation the Spanish ships can throw 6,666 pdr, to 9,258 pdr for the Greek ships... too bad the Greeks are spread everywhere from the Somali coast to Korea and the Spanish in one place.
Of course since it is a Greek sailing fleet we are talking about I have one word besides incessant privateering... fireships. Some traditions must be maintained across timelines.
Although granted this Spanish fleet is too well trained to be in constant peril of fireships like the Ottomans and Egyptians during the Greek war of independence. (59 fireship attacks total, with 39 successful...)
Donald Reaver
Donor
Spain does need to be careful, whatever they may achieve in the East, going toe-to- toe with Romans in Italy, or trusting they will not defend Arles will be brutal. When is the last major land war they have fought? Rhomans while depleted and short of cash have many 10,000 of troops and commanders with battle experience in a very brutal war.
edit. These troops and commanders will be a valuable asset for the next generation or two.
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The Spanish are not defenseless either on land, they have veteran troops from the Reconquista available. And whatever Arles thinks it's clear that they have a choice between being in the Spanish sphere or the Triune sphere.
The Romans are too far to give any meaningful guarantee to the Arletians and their old alliance is worthless when your ally keeps conquering his way to your frontier!!
The Romans are too far to give any meaningful guarantee to the Arletians and their old alliance is worthless when your ally keeps conquering his way to your frontier!!
Vlachia seems to be doing alright despite having the Romans on their frontier. Like it or not Arles is not the biggest fish. Their first king let any hope of that die when he gave up on Northern France.
If I we're arles i would be far less afraid of the Rhomans trying to gobble me up than the Spanish or Triunes who are already on their frontier. Perhaps Athena could be married off to Arles in order to secure an alliance although her help in Constantinople may be needed to help keep Odysseus grounded in reality
Athena is already married, said marriage is rather essential for maintaining stability at home.
Firstly, how is the crescent a Constantinopolitan symbol?
Secondly, AFAIK, the Dharmachakra began as a Buddhist symbol that was later picked up by other Indian religions. Even so, I guess that the Indian Emperor might still use Chakravartin as a title, but probably not his main title. Beyond that, how many people even knew who Ashoka was in 17th century India? He, of course, was the most famous Chakravartin, but I think he was an obscure character until the 19th century.
Although they didn't invent it, they were the polity using it that survived for the longest.
The Dharmachakra is noted on many Indus Valley civilization artifacts, which predates Buddhism by many centuries.
Does it really matter? You underestimate the power of an absolute ruler with a love of the Vedic classics to adopt whatever title he fancies.
Wow. I did not know that.
Interesting. I did not know that either. Sources?
Hmm... true. But tell me, would the Emperor use Chakravartin as his main title? Or would something else be used as his first title?
Amazon.com: The Ancient Indus Valley: New Perspectives (Understanding Ancient Civilizations) (9781576079072): McIntosh, Jane R.: Books
Amazon.com: The Ancient Indus Valley: New Perspectives (Understanding Ancient Civilizations) (9781576079072): McIntosh, Jane R.: Books
www.amazon.com
Not much information has been given about Venkata Raya. Hence I'm not able to tell you his motivations and desires as humans can be highly irrational beings. We're not known for making the most logical decisions so it's not really useful trying to posit that someone definitely "should" or "would" do something unless that someone is you or you can read minds.
^^
The chances of the emperor adopting Samrat as his primary title is equally viable as Chakravartin. It all boils down to the whims and fancies of Venkata Raya in the end. It is not inconceivable for him to adopt Samrat as his primary title just as it isn't inconceivable for his heir to relegate the title after succeeding him
I am binge reading this series right now. I still have a few threadmarks to read but damn!!! I love this!!! This is my first post on this site, I want to thank B444 for all the effort he has put!! I always wanted to read a polycentric world instead of a "European and Islam" dominated world. Great to see Hindu and Buddhist polities actually adapting and trying to make sense of this new world.
I would like to know more about the administration and culture of the Vijayanagara empire. Since it is very diverse in terms of language, does it have a state language(s)? Maybe as it was primarily a Deccan state with its heartland of Kannada and Telugu, it could have these both as court language that prompts elites of India to learn them. The Vijayanagara emperors in OTL patronized all languages but Kannada had a stronger patronage in early stages but once Telugu land came into Vijanagara hands and major migrations of the Nayaks, Telugu was patronized heavily, especially in the court of Krishna Deva Raya who even had 8 Telugu great poets - the "Ashtadiggajas". Telugus even dominated the governor positions. For example, most of the governors of the Tamil country like the Nayaks of Madurai, Thanjavur(or Tanjore) etc were Telugus of Balija(mercantile) and Kamma(agro-militant) castes. I can see that even ITTL, Telugu Nayaks along with Marathas being the major governors across the vast empire.
Edit: I just realized that the Sangama dynasty has not been toppled by Saluva and then again by the Tuluva. But I think it would be really cool to incorporate a figure like Krishna Deva Raya who patronizes art and language works, especially that of Dravidian.
And I think that Vijayanagara would be more involved in the dealings of South-East Asia rather than just being a guest player. It is in their benefit to keep their sphere of influence intact with the Hindu-Buddhist polities of SE-Asia. The King might have also been persuaded by Tamil merchants to safe-guard their interests or something of that sort. I think you have mentioned there was some faction who wanted the Chakravartin to do a Chola-like moves. It would be great to see a story build in that way, it would increase the scope of this timeline.
I know that this is a Byzantine/Roman POV story but still it would be really cool if the story could achieve same depth with the Asian players just like the European ones. The characters on the Asian side seem a bit less developed that might be because the characters have been much recently introduced compared to the Ethiopian and Roman side. But still kudos to you man!!!!
I would like to know more about the administration and culture of the Vijayanagara empire. Since it is very diverse in terms of language, does it have a state language(s)? Maybe as it was primarily a Deccan state with its heartland of Kannada and Telugu, it could have these both as court language that prompts elites of India to learn them. The Vijayanagara emperors in OTL patronized all languages but Kannada had a stronger patronage in early stages but once Telugu land came into Vijanagara hands and major migrations of the Nayaks, Telugu was patronized heavily, especially in the court of Krishna Deva Raya who even had 8 Telugu great poets - the "Ashtadiggajas". Telugus even dominated the governor positions. For example, most of the governors of the Tamil country like the Nayaks of Madurai, Thanjavur(or Tanjore) etc were Telugus of Balija(mercantile) and Kamma(agro-militant) castes. I can see that even ITTL, Telugu Nayaks along with Marathas being the major governors across the vast empire.
Edit: I just realized that the Sangama dynasty has not been toppled by Saluva and then again by the Tuluva. But I think it would be really cool to incorporate a figure like Krishna Deva Raya who patronizes art and language works, especially that of Dravidian.
And I think that Vijayanagara would be more involved in the dealings of South-East Asia rather than just being a guest player. It is in their benefit to keep their sphere of influence intact with the Hindu-Buddhist polities of SE-Asia. The King might have also been persuaded by Tamil merchants to safe-guard their interests or something of that sort. I think you have mentioned there was some faction who wanted the Chakravartin to do a Chola-like moves. It would be great to see a story build in that way, it would increase the scope of this timeline.
I know that this is a Byzantine/Roman POV story but still it would be really cool if the story could achieve same depth with the Asian players just like the European ones. The characters on the Asian side seem a bit less developed that might be because the characters have been much recently introduced compared to the Ethiopian and Roman side. But still kudos to you man!!!!
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I bet that Vlachia is one of the few countries where there'd be major dissent if Rome tried to conquer them. In the past few centuries they've pretty much been Rome's most faithful (if not quite its strongest) ally and were the ancestral homeland of the Drakos dynasty, which seemed pretty popular.
Popular as generals, yes.
Popular as an imperial dynasty? Not so much.
I hame some different questions.
- Who owns Malta? Is it Rhomania or some of the despotates? And what is the religious status of the island?
- What dynasties are actually of Roman descent? If I'm correct, Arles, Empire of all North, Prussia, Khazaria, Mexico? Am I forgetting some?
- What is going on with Kingdom of the isles?
- Who owns Malta? Is it Rhomania or some of the despotates? And what is the religious status of the island?
- What dynasties are actually of Roman descent? If I'm correct, Arles, Empire of all North, Prussia, Khazaria, Mexico? Am I forgetting some?
- What is going on with Kingdom of the isles?