An Age of Miracles Continues: The Empire of Rhomania

[dakkafex]

Pleased to see an update on Northeast Asia, especially Japan. I do have a couple of questions and observations:

What is the status of Korean shamanism at the moment? Is it considered largely rural and backwards as OTL, or has it maintained a little more prestige and serious attention? With a weakened neo-Confucian influence, some of the marginalization of Korean folk religion might be avoided, but given the references to the dominance of Buddhism (and some Orthodox influence working itself in at the edges from Rhomania, Russia, and Japan, I would imagine) it's equally plausible that other faiths have simply done the same instead.

Also, what's the status of Hokkaido, and I suppose the Ainu more broadly? Previously you'd mentioned the island as being more or less OTL, but have the Shimazu done anything to further integration and assimilation of the island? I can't help but notice the mercantilist turn Japan seems to be taking - the Red Seal port at Nagasaki reminds me a lot of the Casa de Contracion monopoly the Spanish enforced through the port of Seville during their golden age. Here's hoping the Japanese can avoid the same sort of stagnation and underdevelopment in the rest of their infrastructure.

 

[HanEmpire]

That's a thicc Korea.

Wonder if the Ryukyuans will vassalize themselves to the Koreans to stay relevant? The Chinese certainly won't care for expanding anywhere past their shores, but the Korean court might like to gain Ryukyuan ports as stop-overs for their merchants to get to Pyrgos without using Japanese intermediaries.

That said are the Koreans milking the Chinese for gifts? OTL Koreans sent more tributary missions than anyone just to get more gifts out of the Chinese Emperor, who typically sent more money than he received in order to keep the surrounding countries happy with Chinese dominance. Even with the lack of reverence for China I can't see the Koreans not cheating the system for all its worth. Plus it'll keep the Chinese from invading Korea a la the Tang.

EDIT:

The Joseon Kings of Korea have much to be proud of in reviewing their history of the past few decades. While China has been ravaged by war and disunity, the Korean Kingdom ceased paying tribute to the Tieh back in 1594 and despite some scares, has bowed to no one since.

Uh oh, Tang invasions of Korea redux might happen. Let's hope the Korean Kings have the foresight to hire some western military advisors to help them weather the storm. Or hell, even northern military advisors would do. Jurchen Cossack Hosts sound cool.



On Japan, it sounds like the monasteries are going to cause a nativist uprising at some point in the future. Once an economic downturn or natural disaster hits every reactionary instinct will point at the presence of Christianity and the death of the Imperial Family as the cause, and those "pacified" monasteries will turn into rallying points for anti-Shimazu malcontents. It might even spill over unto the Korean and Roman quarters in the Japanese ports and cause an international incident of sorts. That said I think the Shimazu are strong enough just to kick them out instead of getting forced into massacring them. Japanese Shinto California perhaps?

 

[floppy_seal99]

Holy shit, this is even better for Korea than I thought it would turn out...I was assuming a small hinterland beyond the Yalu, and/or maybe biting off part of Liaodong--at best. I DID NOT expect strong ties with Japan, Buddhist dominance over Neo-Confucian retrogrades, and major territorial gains into Manchuria proper.

This makes me wonder how @Basileus444 is setting up the role Korea and the Jurchen will play in the second Industrial Revolution, or even the first: Korea now has access to far more lumber, iron, coal, waterway distance, flat agricultural land, coastline, aluminum, copper, lead, zinc, and oil. The Jurchens merely existing as a regional power denies these things to China.

 

[HanEmpire]

This makes me wonder how @Basileus444 is setting up the role Korea and the Jurchen will play in the second Industrial Revolution, or even the first: Korea now has access to far more lumber, iron, coal, waterway distance, flat agricultural land, coastline, aluminum, copper, lead, zinc, and oil. The Jurchens merely existing as a regional power denies these things to China.

Just imagine what'll happen when the Russians meet the Koreans. East Asian Orthodox Christians? Prester John was Korean all along!

 

[floppy_seal99]

Prester John was Korean all along!

Prester Yohan doesn't have quite the same ring to it haha

 

[Hussar]

Just imagine what'll happen when the Russians meet the Koreans. East Asian Orthodox Christians? Prester John was Korean all along!

Is Korea Orthodox? I didn't see any mention of a major Orthodox population in the post.

 

[HanEmpire]

Is Korea Orthodox? I didn't see any mention of a major Orthodox population in the post.

No, it's majority Buddhist. But without the OTL Neo-Confucian fanaticism the minority religion converts aren't getting oppressed/killed for the sake of creating a Harmonious Paradise, so there's bound to be Orthodox Christian Koreans around.

 

[floppy_seal99]

Is Korea Orthodox? I didn't see any mention of a major Orthodox population in the post.

I suspect that because Korea seems to be leaning in a direction ITTL that makes them less antagonistic towards the Japanese, we’ll see faster and more officially sanctioned proliferation of Christianity than in OTL.

Note that it may not be Orthodox Christianity, as going the Latin route allows Korea to distinguish itself from both China and Japan theologically. But Greek Rite followers are probably going to end up at least the second largest Christian group in the kingdom nonetheless.

 

[HanEmpire]

I suspect that because Korea seems to be leaning in a direction ITTL that makes them less antagonistic towards the Japanese, we’ll see faster and more officially sanctioned proliferation of Christianity than in OTL.

Note that it may not be Orthodox Christianity, as going the Latin route allows Korea to distinguish itself from both China and Japan theologically. But Greek Rite followers are probably going to end up at least the second largest Christian group in the kingdom nonetheless.

Orthodox Christianity will spread way faster I feel, since their missionaries have no problem creating translated Bibles for the locals. Hangul Orthodox Bible vs Latin Catholic Bible is not a contest. In fact the royal court or wealthy merchants might support them as means to make the people more literate.

 

[Frame]

What sort of official gettup would the emperors of ttl be wearing? Would our grand Emperor D3 be dressed something like this?

 

[Bronze]

Nice update! Though I still have doubts regarding Japan. I don't think that the Shimazu, even if they are Orthodox, would have completely destroyed the Imperial Family. Heavenly superpeople or not, the Yamato have been the only legitimate Emperors for nearly a thousand years, never mind the severe backlash from Shintoists. Rather I think that either the Shimazu Emperor himself or his son and heir married a daughter of the Yamato before killing the rest of the Yamato, to improve their claim to the throne. The daimyo still are rather powerful when they want to be, and the Shimazu do not seem to have any power base in Honshu.

 

[E_x_c_u_b_i_t_o_r_e]

I suspect that because Korea seems to be leaning in a direction ITTL that makes them less antagonistic towards the Japanese, we’ll see faster and more officially sanctioned proliferation of Christianity than in OTL.

Note that it may not be Orthodox Christianity, as going the Latin route allows Korea to distinguish itself from both China and Japan theologically. But Greek Rite followers are probably going to end up at least the second largest Christian group in the kingdom nonetheless.

Huh? Why latin rite? Where did u get that idea? I don't seem to recall any updates that latins have made significant headways into korea. Besides didn't this new update just told us that Japan and Korea are more or less interacting more peacefully than otl.

I don't think the Korean kings will want to be subservient to any kind of pope. They'll want to be more or less independent.

 

[Frame]

I really like Lothringia its interesting how we might call it a super netherlands it has way less power and influence than the actual netherlands

 

[Cryostorm]

What I think is interesting is if Korea and Japan retain friendly relations then Japan may not go towards having a mainland empire at all and end up this world's Britain that has a nice little island empire around the Pacific with possible holdings in OTL California and Pacific Northwest.

This also ends up being a better deal for Manchuria and the Jurchens as they will be a far larger chunk of any Korean state than they would in China.

 

[Cryostorm]

I really like Lothringia its interesting how we might call it a super netherlands it has way less power and influence than the actual netherlands

Unfortunately for Lotharingia while it is more powerful than the Netherlands in absolute terms it is pinned between two titans, the HRE and the Triunes, as opposed to the four giants, Spain, France, England, and Austria/HRE, of OTL so they have less ability to play off everyone around them to maintain independence.

 

[HanEmpire]

Unfortunately for Lotharingia while it is more powerful than the Netherlands in absolute terms it is pinned between two titans, the HRE and the Triunes, as opposed to the four giants, Spain, France, England, and Austria/HRE, of OTL so they have less ability to play off everyone around them to maintain independence.

Especially now that the HRE got shafted by the Romans. I'm wondering how the situation would look now if the Romans had managed to sack Munich, giving it the Buda treatment.

 

[Cryostorm]

Especially now that the HRE got shafted by the Romans. I'm wondering how the situation would look now if the Romans had managed to sack Munich, giving it the Buda treatment.

Probably much more chaotic as the German Empire explodes into civil war. Though I am honestly just waiting to see what happens when the Triunes go through War of the Roses II and every neighbor piles on to grab land they lost or claimed during the last century. Henry has made quite sure that everyone is sharpening knives to use after his death and claim their pound of flesh.

 

[Βοανηργές]

With the Shimazu now in control of all of Japan, they have been cracking down on the wokou. The last thing they want are loose cannons running around making messes that need to be cleaned up. The Shimazu want any Japanese force to be directed and controlled by them, for their political purposes and not the self-aggrandizement of an ambitious daimyo.

*Cough* RHomaniAnShipLordsarereallyunwieldytoo *Cough*

The Shimazu, after setting themselves up as the new Emperors, selected Osaka as their capital. The ancient capital of Kyoto had too many connections to the old Japan. Osaka is centrally located, with sea routes leading south and a new Imperial road leading up to northern Honshu. With the daimyo and their retinues constantly shuttling back and forth between the capital and their han, improved transportation and hospitality amenities such as roadside inns are increasing drastically in quality and quantity. The Imperial court and the daimyo also wish to cut an impressive figure, especially when presenting themselves to the Emperor, leading to an increased demand in Chinese, Korean, and Indonesian goods.

Still half a century to go, but I wonder whether the Shimazus can top modern day Japan's living standards. Fingers crossed for earlier maglev Shinkansen ITTL.

the Ryukyuan Islands

Have the islands been unified under a single polity? Do they Ryukyuans still pay tribute to China? If not they are easy pickings for whoever feels like having some Pacific real estate. By the way, who actually still pays tribute to the Zeng? Tarim Basin mini-statelets and Dai Viet aside. Maybe Shan and Tibet?

Note that it may not be Orthodox Christianity, as going the Latin route allows Korea to distinguish itself

Church of the East stroke Nestorians aka the OG Christians of Korea are biding their time.

While neo-Confucianism has had some impact on the Korean court, Chinese influence is currently at an all-time low.

All we need now is a couple of famines, a peasant army or two and a co-operative general in the Shanhai pass to see a Korean win a round on the Celestial throne roulette. Tanguts (Tibeto-Burman), Jurchens, Mongols and even a Turkic dynasty all had a go at it (basically everyone and their mothers too) so why not a Geum Dynasty ITTL? However, it's all unlikely without a Demetrius of their own to reform and integrate the Jurchens or a Iskandar to charm everyone to get in line. Maybe a mixed Korean-Jurchen king in the future will be what's needed for an Empire of its own

Only those vessels with a Red Seal permit can sail overseas, and must do it through Nagasaki

Are all foreign vessels required to dock in Nagasaki like OTL or is Osaka an option too since the Korean merchants can access it?
Unrelated question, but what is the lingua franca in South East Asia? Greek and Spanish vying for primacy over native languages like Malay?

 

[Khaine]

View attachment 539515
Alrighty here's the new map with mostly just an updated Korea. Orthodox Japan is best Japan

What is the status of Yemen again? looks like a potential route for Ethiopia could star expanding.
Alternatively they could start getting into the colonial game even if only t piss off the Western powers by being a black Colonial empire.

 

[Βοανηργές]

I don't think that the Shimazu, even if they are Orthodox, would have completely destroyed the Imperial Family.

Yamato have been the only legitimate Emperors for nearly a thousand years, never mind the severe backlash from Shintoists

What the Shimazu are doing is essentially a revolution, a thorough house cleaning. They have even moved the capital out of Kyoto, something that hasn't been done ever ITTL. The Shimazu want to minimize anything that would evoke memories of the old regime, something that is even more essential to them as Orthodox emperors. By marrying a Yamato scion, they are lending credence to the legitimacy of Shintoism and veneration of God-emperors when the last thing they want is that. They will look to other sources to derive legitimacy, maybe models such as the European model of Divine Right, the Chinese Mandate of Heaven or maybe an entirely new indigenous model.

looks like a potential route for Ethiopia could star expanding.
Alternatively they could start getting into the colonial game

Yemen was allied w the Ottomans in the previous war. Ethiopia stormed Aden in 1632 and has held it ever since. Rhomania doesn't care about the hinterland.
Ethiopia is already has holdings all along the Swahili coast and even in India.