An Age of Miracles Continues: The Empire of Rhomania

[RogueTraderEnthusiast]

Wow looks like the Zeng are certainly no pushovers. Constantinople better hope they don't get too close to the Ottomans

A united China never is really.

What is to everyone else's benefit is that current policy seems to be very weak in naval concerns. This will severely hamper their ability to project power.

For one, someone else will need to fight the naval wars. Against the Romans I'd expect Spain, and vice versa.

This means that the most likely situation - for China to assist the Ottomans, it will be a logistical nightmare and one that could shatter the Zeng if they overcommit - and I expect at the hands of the Khazars, Tibet and Ship Lords.

An army to ensure the Ottomans can pull a D3 on Constantinople will need to be similarly huge, and I doubt the Ottomans can really supply it. Even taking a huge amount of time to prepare supply depots, a supply chain from China Proper is insanely vulnerable to the Khazars. That means they'd have to survive on local supply or pillaging. That'll wreck the region. I'm not even convinced that if secure the overland route has the capacity.

Which leads us to the sea.

They have no window on sea, Oman, Ethiopia, the Romans and Ship Lords are all in the way. You'd need A Spanish-Triune domination to secure that. Sure a change in policy and developing a strong navy could flip that, but it doesn't look like that's happening. Even if that did happen there is Japan on the mix too who shouldn't be overlooked.

The Zeng at the moment might be best placed as a regional soft power that you don't want to face on land locally. But anyone expecting them to send a big enough army to save the Ottomans in the next war is going to be disappointed I expect.

Personally though I'm all for a glorious attempt by the Zeng, only for the new Khazar King to show he's got his predecessors skill and crushes the Zeng supply system and teaches them that they can't project out west militarily. Not without providing a literal slave army to the Khazars.

 

[Frame]

I bet once the Gathering of the Rus happens The Zeng are gonna have to be much more careful in central Asia

 

[HanEmpire]

One interesting development of the Pyrgos trade hub could be the introduction of modern banking into China. One of the many reasons that traditional Chinese economic growth kept periodically getting hit with Malthusian population crises and dynastic collapses was that they didn't have the concept of long term money storage or fractional reserve banking. That meant all financial transactions were done between personal friends/family, involving transfer of float or actual hard currency. They had no interest or large scale loans. This wasn't at all conducive for the development of lending institutions or middle class entrepreneur class, so China stayed mostly rural. Add in endless population growth, bureaucratic bloat to deal with said increased population, and increasing division of farm plots, and you get poverty, corruption, inability to accumulate reserves, inability to import food, inability of government to pay for relief, and eventually collapse. They couldn't transition their economy to a more efficient configuration to deal with the pressures.

If the Zeng Imperial Government can get past their fanboy fascination with older dynasties and accept "barbarian" practices, then this China could become the sole global superpower in time. I don't expect them to at all ofc, since Confucian bias against greedy moneyed classes and the practice of trade that prevented banking in OTL China exists here too. Their disinterest in naval power is indicative of that.

 

[Lascaris]

The Zeng at the moment might be best placed as a regional soft power that you don't want to face on land locally. But anyone expecting them to send a big enough army to save the Ottomans in the next war is going to be disappointed I expect.

Personally though I'm all for a glorious attempt by the Zeng, only for the new Khazar King to show he's got his predecessors skill and crushes the Zeng supply system and teaches them that they can't project out west militarily. Not without providing a literal slave army to the Khazars.

The logistics to send Chinese armies to Mesopotamia certainly are not there. The logistics to send bullion to finance the Ottoman war effort probably are... as long as that much bullion is around.

 

[E_x_c_u_b_i_t_o_r_e]

The logistics to send Chinese armies to Mesopotamia certainly are not there. The logistics to send bullion to finance the Ottoman war effort probably are... as long as that much bullion is around.

Why would they even do such a thing?

 

[Frame]

Why would they even do such a thing?

Reminds me of that time Shah Ruhk sent a bunch of chinese and Korean soldiers to conquer Rhome back during the reign of Theodoros II. Definitely not practical at all but fucking awsomeme nontheless. I can't wait to see how that's covered in not the end

 

[Byz]

Recently binged this TL. I had read it before, a few years back, stopping when I hit the end of the Time of Troubles with the repeat of Heraklius' old campaign. That whole segment, from Theodoros to Andreas Drakos, what could be called the "Andread" is some of the best stuff on this site IMHO. I was delighted to see that the quality continued in the continuation. The War of Roman Succession is proving to be quite the interesting mess. Keep up the great work, @Basileus444 !

One thing I did notice while rereading is the weird hate on Demetrios II in this thread. I guess I just don't get it. To me, he seemed to be a passable emperor, who had to spend far too much time dealing with the mess Helena I left him and with a neverending string of plain bad luck. Facing off against Iskander could have gone a lot worse, and almost every defeat proved to be a result of a failure on the part of the Roman military leadership rather than from Constantinople. I think he deserves a bit of a break.

 

[Frame]

Yeah the Demitrios trilogy is awsom3e the whole way through haha

 

[Graf von Konigsberg]

I’ve forgotten what the altered upload schedule is going to be, could someone remind me?

 

[Frame]

Every 5th 15th and 25th. Plus a special update on the 23rd i think for Patrons. (If u aren't already i suggest you help support this awsome tl on there, there are a lot of awesome things on there only 2$ per update)

 

[Curtain Jerker]

Recently binged this TL. I had read it before, a few years back, stopping when I hit the end of the Time of Troubles with the repeat of Heraklius' old campaign. That whole segment, from Theodoros to Andreas Drakos, what could be called the "Andread" is some of the best stuff on this site IMHO. I was delighted to see that the quality continued in the continuation. The War of Roman Succession is proving to be quite the interesting mess. Keep up the great work, @Basileus444 !

One thing I did notice while rereading is the weird hate on Demetrios II in this thread. I guess I just don't get it. To me, he seemed to be a passable emperor, who had to spend far too much time dealing with the mess Helena I left him and with a neverending string of plain bad luck. Facing off against Iskander could have gone a lot worse, and almost every defeat proved to be a result of a failure on the part of the Roman military leadership rather than from Constantinople. I think he deserves a bit of a break.

D2 was dealt a bad hand but also played it poorly. You are right, he is more or less blameless for the Battles of Nineveh from a tactical perspective. However, it was his diplomatic ham-handedness that prevented Georgia from joining that war in the first place. D2 just assumed they'd follow his lead without actually bothering to ask the king of Georgia. 15,000 Georgians at Nineveh sure would have been nice, huh? Not to mention that the rot in the imperial bureaucracy that led to the abomination that was the Treaty of Mashhadshar was allowed to fully fester during D2's long reign. So yes, he wasn't given a lot to work with but he still managed to make a mess of things all on his own,

 

[Bronze]

Oooh, Zeng China on the rise!

I wonder what they think of Nan. If they even remember that it exists. Which they mightn't, considering that Nan currently has nothing worth conquering in the first place.

Yeah, I was wondering whether the Kyushu warlords have already invited the Koreans to Japan. Though considering that Korea had to send its soldiers literally halfway across the world, it might not be so keen on returning to the Chinese yoke.

*China is whoole again...*
*And then it brooke again...*

 

[Frame]

I know this is a loaded question but how would the maceadonian wars be viewed by Rhoman historians. Its so important to the way the empire it is today but its basically greeks being subgigated by latins so theres a pretty big identity issue there

 

[Βοανηργές]

The good situation on all other frontiers is most beneficial to the Chinese court. Because the layout in the northeast, with the Jurchens, Koreans, and Japanese, is decidedly more difficult.

[1] With one notable exception which is about to become very important.

Though considering that Korea had to send its soldiers literally halfway across the world, it might not be so keen on returning to the Chinese yoke.

The Aisin Gioros want to know your location. If the Jurchens have managed to take advantage of the Tieh's collapse and unite Manchuria and even parts of Mongolia, they will be a constant threat to the Son of Heaven as the Qing in OTL did. The Zeng still face the perennial problems of nomads but maybe this time it is the Hermit Kingdom which will rise out of its shell if they can harness the power of the steppe. (Goguryeo Ascendant 2.0?)

but its basically greeks being subgigated by latins so theres a pretty big identity issue there

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think this has less to do with ethnicity and more to do with the proto-nationalism that has arisen in Rhomaion. To the Rhomans, you can be a Rhoman enough regardless of whether you are ethnically Greek or Latin (e.g. Sicilians, less so Carthage). Good Latins include the Knights Hospitaller who always fought beside them. When Rhomans use Latin derogatorily, they are referring to the Latins who are part of the polities who are false pretenders to the Rhoman title in their point of view and also took up arms to take them by force.

 

[Coyote_Waits]

I found a version of "Do you hear the people sing" in greek. If we use our imaginations we can look at this being a play about events from ttl.

doesn't have quite the same catchiness as in english and french but it'll do

 

[Byz]

D2 was dealt a bad hand but also played it poorly. You are right, he is more or less blameless for the Battles of Nineveh from a tactical perspective. However, it was his diplomatic ham-handedness that prevented Georgia from joining that war in the first place. D2 just assumed they'd follow his lead without actually bothering to ask the king of Georgia. 15,000 Georgians at Nineveh sure would have been nice, huh? Not to mention that the rot in the imperial bureaucracy that led to the abomination that was the Treaty of Mashhadshar was allowed to fully fester during D2's long reign. So yes, he wasn't given a lot to work with but he still managed to make a mess of things all on his own,

He made mistakes, no doubt about it. He also showed a fair bit of wisdom in other cases. Dismantling Hungary in the way he did earned him goodwill in the Balkans and laid the groundwork for the current, very pro-Roman, order.

Collectively the Drakid dynasty seemed to be something of a dud. That's how it goes sometimes. I think in the history books they'll be overshadowed by their predecessors and successors both.

 

[Frame]

Does anybody remember the non canon flashes to the future we got as an intermission during the Andreas Nikitas era? Obviously this is just speculation but I find it very interesting nontheless as it had to do with a Sino-Spanish Alliance trying to kick Rhome out of Island asia. Even though it's noncanon I can absolutely see a war like this breaking out soon. I also remember something about a Rhoman-Triune alliance which is pretty interesting as well.

 

[Curtain Jerker]

He made mistakes, no doubt about it. He also showed a fair bit of wisdom in other cases. Dismantling Hungary in the way he did earned him goodwill in the Balkans and laid the groundwork for the current, very pro-Roman, order.

Collectively the Drakid dynasty seemed to be something of a dud. That's how it goes sometimes. I think in the history books they'll be overshadowed by their predecessors and successors both.

You aren't wrong - would be wildly implausible for every Rhoman leader (or every leader of any country for that matter) to be a A+. For every Andreas Nikeas you get a D2. That's how it goes both in history and this timeline. Rhomania just got a potent combination of bad leadership, bad generalship and bad luck from circa 1580 to the beginning/middle of the War of the Roman Succession. It seems to have stabilized a bit but if Odysseus is as afflicted by Axios Fever as his actions in Rome indicate it could be the predecessor of another dip in leadership. As always, we'll wait and see.

 

[floppy_seal99]

Because the layout in the northeast, with the Jurchens, Koreans, and Japanese, is decidedly more difficult.

Is it time? Are we getting a Salsu repeat? God I hope so...

What is to everyone else's benefit is that current policy seems to be very weak in naval concerns. This will severely hamper their ability to project power.

*China reunifies ITTL*
The Lord taketh
*Their naval policy is worse than how the OTL Knicks run an NBA team*
The Lord giveth as well haha

This means that the most likely situation - for China to assist the Ottomans, it will be a logistical nightmare and one that could shatter the Zeng if they overcommit - and I expect at the hands of the Khazars, Tibet and Ship Lords.

Personally though I'm all for a glorious attempt by the Zeng, only for the new Khazar King to show he's got his predecessors skill and crushes the Zeng supply system and teaches them that they can't project out west militarily. Not without providing a literal slave army to the Khazars.

Would you call that getting Zengbanged?

The Zeng still face the perennial problems of nomads but maybe this time it is the Hermit Kingdom which will rise out of its shell if they can harness the power of the steppe. (Goguryeo Ascendant 2.0?)

hello? Yes, is this the Department of BASED speaking?

 

[Graf von Konigsberg]

Every 5th 15th and 25th. Plus a special update on the 23rd i think for Patrons. (If u aren't already i suggest you help support this awsome tl on there, there are a lot of awesome things on there only 2$ per update)

That’s the usual, but I thought Basileus444 said something about one-time changes because of the pandemic?