An Age of Miracles Continues: The Empire of Rhomania

That would be obvious but we didn't get a personal perspective. We're very detached from Ody at this point. Plus it was hinted too with the dino descriptions. Intelligent, cold, cruel. Not hot blooded stupid revenge, bloodthirsty or brutal. Makes me curious.
It could be intelligent, cold, and cruel in a detached sociopathic way that does not care for human life and would not understand the care others place in it. Intelligence does not equate to interpersonal skills, although I hesitate to say Odysseus lacks them since he does have a friend accompanying him on campaign and regularly deals with other people for bureaucracy and policy.

This could be entirely correct. But I'm skeptical it's that simple. At least until B444 says otherwise.
He did earlier say that he likes to have human elements and flaws pop up in leaders so I'm inclined to think it's that.

Also I meant to say unnecessarily cruel, not necessarily. Whoops. Two letters can really change a post. :p
 
I see Genoa and Rome as the culmination of two aspects of Roman culture ITTL.

1) The antipathy of Latins/Catholics that has been increasing non-stop for centuries by this point and has been hyper charged by this war. By this point ITTL the Romans barely recognize Western Christianity( Catholic/Bohamanist) as Christian. As far as Rome is concerned at this point they may occasionally have common interests and even warm relations but they will never trust a Latin power as a friend again. I think Spains “great armament” will be the final nail that severs Rome from Western Europe.

2) For 4 centuries now Rome has been drifting towards a meritocratic system coupled with an increasing intolerance for aristocracy. D3 may not have wanted to kill Bishops and Grandees for diplomatic reasons but as far as Romans on the ground are concerned nobility does not confer any special privilege. So where a Western Power may have been content with gilded cages; as far as Roman cultural discourse is concerned; The Pope, Cardinals, and Grandees did things that deserved death, so death was meted out.
 
It will be interesting to see how Hungary/Austria functions in the Belgrade Pact. As the only member that has any serious population of Catholics it will have to navigate the significant Catholic animus that by this point is totally pervasive in Rome and is likely becoming a part of all the Orthodox nations due to Roman cultural influence.

1) Will H-A become an unhappy discriminated member and try to break away from the pact at some point in the future.

2) Will H-A in Roman eyes be the “good Catholics” in the same way that modern racism always finds a small subset of a group they like to “prove” they aren’t racist.

3) Will H-A stat Catholic but develops an Orthodox merchant/middle class that finds it easier to make money being Orthodox. In which case H-A maybe Catholic in numbers and culture but the economy increasingly falls into the hands of a new money Orthodox elite.

4) Over a period of generations there is mass conversion of the populace to Orthodoxy.

If I’m going to speculate I would think 1 and 3 are the most likely. I can’t see the average Roman ever trusting Catholic merchants in any time frame that will matter. So there will either become H-A Orthodox middlemen that facilitate trade or H-A will not see the benefits of the Belgrade pact long term and seek to leave it.
 
@JSC I think you're most likely to see all of them but with a mix of 3 and 4 winning out. Hungary is not in a great place diplomatically if they detach from Constantinople. They alienate their biggest trade partner, their route to the sea, their ally and the one that can attack them most easily.

Meanwhile Germany was brutalized by the Romans but were outright betrayed by Hungary. Betrayal typically hurts more than being hit. Poland were betrayed as well and Bohemia would love some new land without annoying the HRE.

That traps Hungary institutionally and then you have the soft power of trade and culture. Hungarians, Vlachs, Croats, Serbs and Romans are now going to be intermingling with each other in ways we've not seen before. The Danube will make the Rhine look downright poverty-striken. The Hungarians who benefit will form a powerful faction, and may even get some boost from Constaninople to keep them on side.
 
I hope we’ll be able to see the psychological affects on Ody after all of the death and destruction he’s caused. Deep down I bet it’s affecting him very deeply but I don’t think he’ll show it and instead become even more brutal
 
So Genoa is under defacto Roman control? What is the accord going to do about that?

At this point I don’t know what the accord could do. Spain is bankrupt and is putting the last of their money into a fleet. The Bernese League army just got thrashed and is likely going to be spending some time re-equipping and retraining their army. Arles is capable but I doubt they have will to go it alone.

There’s also the matter that I think to an extent the 3 Johns were a bluff. They REALLY don’t want Rome annexing all of Northern Italy but so long as the industrial areas on the plain stay independent I doubt it’s going to be something to go to war over.
 
While the Spanish are a power to be reckoned with in the east, in the Mediterranean they might as well be a teddy bear compared to the Romans. I think the best idea for the Romans is to invade southeast Spain and bring hellfire onto Spanish soil to make it known that Spanish agressiob abroad will be repaid at home.
 
While the Spanish are a power to be reckoned with in the east, in the Mediterranean they might as well be a teddy bear compared to the Romans. I think the best idea for the Romans is to invade southeast Spain and bring hellfire onto Spanish soil to make it known that Spanish agressiob abroad will be repaid at home.
While they are at that they should also attack Russia, declare war on the Empire of All North, break their alliance with Japan and try to conquer India.
 
At this point I don’t know what the accord could do. Spain is bankrupt and is putting the last of their money into a fleet. The Bernese League army just got thrashed and is likely going to be spending some time re-equipping and retraining their army. Arles is capable but I doubt they have will to go it alone.

There’s also the matter that I think to an extent the 3 Johns were a bluff. They REALLY don’t want Rome annexing all of Northern Italy but so long as the industrial areas on the plain stay independent I doubt it’s going to be something to go to war over.

I agree 100%. At this point the Accord is toothless and Rome has no reason to play nice once news of the Spanish Armada spreads. I feel like it’s in the Romans best interest to keep both Dukes, split the north and insist that they “protect” each duke from the other with a very large Roman garrison in each of their capitals. To prevent any more conflict obviously.

Put similar garrisons in Firenze and Rome if they don’t annex it directly. Have Carthage provide the Garrison for Genoa. Annex some costal city enclaves directly. And keep all three Northern Italian puppets on a very very short leash with the long term intention of conversion and possible annexation. The Italian peninsula has caused the Romans more trouble than the Germans long term. Time to put an end to it I think.

Long term maybe the Romans could try to make Allies out of the League and the Kingdom of the Isles? Weak enough to be trusted Latins if that makes any sense.
 
While they are at that they should also attack Russia, declare war on the Empire of All North, break their alliance with Japan and try to conquer India.
Maybe a invasion of southeast Spain is a little far fetched but I don’t think it’s that impossible considering a good amount of their army is abroad and a massive chunk of their navy is on the other side of the world. It dosent seem much more excessive than the Roman action In Italy and Germany at least and in this case they wouldn’t even be taking territory. Maybe I’m missing something though
 
Maybe a invasion of southeast Spain is a little far fetched but I don’t think it’s that impossible considering a good amount of their army is abroad and a massive chunk of their navy is on the other side of the world. It dosent seem much more excessive than the Roman action In Italy and Germany at least and in this case they wouldn’t even be taking territory. Maybe I’m missing something though
Not about feasibility, it is about how much a bad idea it would be.

Even completely disregarding how bad picking an actual non-colonial war with Spain would be, at this point what Rhomania should do is finish all other commitments as soon as feasible and throw everything they have into the Middle-East. A chance at lasting victory there is worth more than anything else Rhomania could possibly accomplish.
 
“Theodore Laskaris did not change history and his story was largely a
dead end. One of the main lessons to draw has to do precisely with the way
his life and work came to an abrupt conclusion. A series of hypothetical
“what-if” questions arise, which in turn raise unsettling questions about the
making and logic of dominant historical narratives. Would Theodore
Laskaris have been able to crush the power of his aristocratic opponents
had he lived longer? Would he have modified his policies had he succeeded
in retaking Constantinople? Would he have presided over the recapture
of Constantinople so soon, given that he had discharged and disgraced
the fortunate general who accomplished its reconquest, Alexios Stratego-
poulos? And what would have been the consequences for the history of the
Byzantine and the eastern Mediterranean world if Theodore had not died
prematurely and if the Laskaris dynasty remained in power? None of these
counterfactual questions can, of course, be given an answer. Historians
prefer, rightly, not to ask them, lest they damage the foundations and
credibility of their craft. After all, history is about the past as it happened,
not about the past as it could have happened. Yet the unique life and legacy
of Theodore Laskaris have this special quality about them, that they inspire
us to imagine alternative histories. His story and its aftermath make us
ponder the complexity of events, the role of contingency, and the way in
which dominant narratives have come to be constructed, creating in the
process the illusion of teleology and inevitability. This illusion is all the
more powerful in studying the premodern past, because the temptation to
focus on historical processes and impersonal motive forces is stronger on
account of the limitations of the surviving evidence. That history did not
happen differently does not mean, however, that it could not have
happened differently. We view the past with hindsight, but this privileged
position does not always work to our advantage. It can impoverish our
perspective and leads us to lose sight of the broad horizon of multiple and
alternative paths to the future that once lay open. These paths were very
much alive in the dreaming minds of individuals who felt and thought,
lived and died, just as we do today.”

(ANGELOV, Dimiter. The Byzantine Hellene: The Life of Emperor Theodore Laskaris and Byzantium in the Thirteenth Century.
Harvard University Press, 2019, p. 229-230)​

I thought the readers and the author of this timeline would appreciate the closing remarks of the current leading scholar on Theodore II in his latest work, the emperor’s biography: a call for alternate history.
 
I am bored so let’s look at a hypothetical Spanish operation to the Far East.

So looking at the Wooden Walls update I see that Rhomania has 19 SOL (7 4th and 12 5th raters) in the Far East for a total throw weight of approx 860 cannons and another 84 SOL 4th rate or greater in the Mediterranean (Of which 10 are 1st and 2nd rate). I will assume once the war ended there is nothing larger than a fregatai in the Caribbean. Rome is also the only power capable of building SOL (4th rates) in the Far East at Taprobane. All Roman ships in the east are built in the east and are mostly crewed by easterners. Since they are also capable of building merchant ships of 1000tonnes gross I assume there are shipyards large enough to build 3rd-1st rates though won’t have the expertise since it’s never been needed.

Spain has a TOTAL of 56 ships of 4th rate or higher which only 2 are 2nd rate. I’ll assume Spain keeps a squadron of 4 or so 4th rates in The America’s for their colonies and likely rotates another squadron back and forth in the Far East with a throw weight of say 370 cannons (the 6 4th rates are larger and a 3rd rate but there are no 5th rates accompanying them since it’s too expensive) So that’s 10 4th rates and a 3rd rate gone leaving 45 SOL in/around Spain that can be sent.

Again assuming say 20% tied up in repairs/refit at any one tome so let’s say 37 are available by Spring 1636 to go to the Far East. Figure that’s 2 2nd rate, 13 3rd rate and 20 4th rate ready to sail with another 3 3rd rate and 5 4th rate being repaired.

This is where it gets tricky. Get too much ready to sail and Rome just needs to demonstrate with a fleet and suddenly you can’t even leave. So my original assumption of 30 SOL now seems wildly optimistic. On the other hand they need to send enough to crush the Roman force with 860 cannon and a 490 cannon advantage over Spanish forces already there. This force will need to bring everything it needs to wage a campaign as the wooden walls update made clear only Rhomania has native shipbuilding facilities. So not only do they need to bring a force capable of breaking the Roman fleet in only one or two engagements but they will need to bring all the food, spare crewmen, shot, and powder this force will need. It will pretty much be a one and done force since win or lose it would take 2 seasons to get the reinforcements needed all the while they will be losing crewmen to tropical diseases as well.

With all that considered what to send. I’d say it will likely be in the range of 5 3rd raters and 6 4th raters. This gives a cannon power of approx 660 when married with the 370 already there gives a force with 1030 cannons facing a Roman force with 860. Spanish cannons will also be heavier since larger warship=larger cannon.

Spain though will face multiple problems with this Armada:
1) There will be significant wastage amongst the crews on the months long journey to even reach the Far East so there will need to be an extra couple ships worth of extra crewmen just to make sure every ship is battle ready.
2) Each Spanish squadron will be weaker than a combined Roman fleet and Rome will; due to much shorter LOC; have time to concentrate their fleet. Roman strategy is going to be to try to force the Spanish Far East squadron to battle in the Spring of 1636 and than refit before the Armada arrives. If Rome succeeds the armada is a failure before it even gets there.
3) It will be a one and done force. Between expenditure of shot and powder and wastage of crews by 1637 the majority of ships will have no choice but to return to Spain. Spain will not be able to send another force before 1638 without dangerously depleting their other forces.
4) With only 24 SOL battleready; with another 8 in repair; it is going to be awful tempting for Rome to ignore that truce line and maybe sack a coastal city or two so Spain really can’t send anything beyond this Armada.
5) If Rome is able to get Ethiopia and/or Oman to send some reinforcements even a combined Spanish fleet will be outgunned. A combined Omani/Ethiopian squadron of only 2 3rd rates and 6 4 rates would give The new combined fleet an advantage of 300+ cannons.
6) The Rhomanian Far Eastern fleet by virtue of being mostly local crews will know the currents and wind patterns better. Could be a decisive advantage but I don’t know enough about how that factors into battles of this era to speculate.
7) Even if they are able to force a battle and cripple current Roman strength they wont have the strength to take Taprobane, Singapura, or Pygros. Without taking these 3 bases Rome will be able to quickly rebuild and even surpass their previous strength.
8) As @Coyote_Waits reminded me there is also Japan to reinforce.

I started writing this genuinely thinking Spain could do some long-term damage but once I wrote it all out it’s pretty clear that at best Spain is going to disrupt Roman spice for a year. Rome at this point just has too many advantages both in Europe and in the Far East for any power save perhaps the Triunes or a coalition of powers to unseat them for any time period greater than a single season.

In fact looking at this I think it is pretty clear that over the coming decades Rome is going to come to totally dominate Island Asia unless a Western Power abandons racism; which I doubt. There’s just no way even a wealthy metropole like the Triunes can overcome to inherent advantages of native industry/manpower that Rhomania has tapped into.

Edits: Spelling and point 8
 
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"On June 30, as the street fighting in Genoa is dying down, the Romans launch a massive assault at a pair of breaches their cannons have smashed in the city walls"... I think you meant Rome here, and not Genoa..

I think Genoa was the intent. The previous segments indicated timeframe on other campaigns. The 30th was when the uprising was ending in Genoa, before the executions followed by the surrender of the city in early July.

Felt abit out of place then.. As its in between two segments about the siege of Rome..

That is sort of the point. B444 is just showing us where Rome is chronologically compared to the other segments.

Keep in mind the line “By the morning of July 1, the uprising has been put down, but the killings are not over.” So stating that the fighting is dying down on the 30th is chronologically correct.

It’s not the first point in the update where B444 lets us know events are happening concurrently. For example “When Odysseus arrives in Napoli, neither Parma nor Verona has succeeded in winning Constantinople’s support.” Keep in mind that Odysseus is at Naples near the start of the update, then we have the segment on Florence, then the Ducal War is covered, then this sentence comes up to tell us where in the chronology events are occurring so it doesn't seem like it is one event after another. B444 is simply having a bit in each segment of the update to help us know that. Maybe the wording wasn’t the best (I had to think briefly myself when I first read it) but the point is to situate the segments of the update that deal with particular subjects into the wider whole of the Italian front of the war by paralleling events rather than just listing dates people will gloss over.

I was trying to show that the events in Genoa and Rome are taking place near-simultaneously rather than one after the other. The section has been changed to:

"On June 30, the fighting (but not killing) in Genoa is dying down. At the Eternal City, both are just getting started. At dawn..."
 
And so Rome is finally retaken once more, bringing an end to the Papal residence, I like that bit on a scion of Frederick II delivering the final blow against the pope btw, I'm sure Stupor Mundi must be laughing from where he is (Be it heaven or hell). I agree on a statement regarding Ody blowing up holes on Hadrian's tomb, perhaps a trip down to Mesopotamia once the War of Wrath occurs will fix that.
 
And so Rome is finally retaken once more, bringing an end to the Papal residence, I like that bit on a scion of Frederick II delivering the final blow against the pope btw, I'm sure Stupor Mundi must be laughing from where he is (Be it heaven or hell). I agree on a statement regarding Ody blowing up holes on Hadrian's tomb, perhaps a trip down to Mesopotamia once the War of Wrath occurs will fix that.

Castelo San Angelo has been repeatedly besieged. Still around so will probably survive a few holes.
 
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