A Sound of Thunder: The Rise of the Soviet Superbooster

[WotanArgead]

The Subsidies and social spending were ludicrous, as it was supposed to be a showcase of communism, the issue is it wasn't sustainable and under capitalism would mean huge taxes, IRL East Germany today still has higher taxes due to social programs staying in place, which is a reason why people leave

Here I’ll return to our ideological differences (which, as I suggest, is useless - we still won’t convince each other). But as someone who studied the USSR and lives on its ruins, I note that this option does not always work - in the USSR of the seventies, individual taxes were very small, and mostly these were small utility bills. There were, of course, more peculiar taxes, for example, a tax on bachelors (if at a certain point we were unmarried and without children, then we had to pay). But in general, the Soviet citizen of that time had a ridiculous amount of extra money. The fact is, for example, that on average cinemas were visited more than 10 times a month (here, of course, the development of television networks also played a role, but in Moscow there were no problems with this, and still, even adult Muscovites spent money on cheap tickets at any free minute ). At the same time, there were many social programs, and a huge number of social services were free.

USSR wanted a communist Germany

You don’t know Stalin well - until 1948, Stalin viewed Eastern Europe as a “barrier cordon” rather than as allies or puppets (the Baltic republics were perceived in the same way by some European countries). It got to the point of ridiculousness - in particular, when the Romanian communists announced that they were ready to immediately declare a republic, but Stalin said that it was necessary to preserve the monarchy. The German communists said that the Social Democrats were ready to create a common party with them (they say we have the same program), but he replied that no, create a separate party for them - very ironic. Eastern Europe was supposed to become one big Finland - that is, a bunch of bourgeois-democratic regimes, some of which would pay reparations. Moreover, at that time there was a policy that each “workers’” party would have its own “national path to socialism.” This also applied to Germany - Stalin would be satisfied with a Germany that pays reparations (which you correctly noted) and does not have its own army (or has one, but not a large one). The United States was not happy with the latter, especially since the growing grip of the USSR in Europe could not help but strain, especially when there was a real possibility that the communists would come to power in Italy and France, and there would be a civil war in Greece. Already after 1948, the course began that “People’s Democracy” is an analogue of Soviet power, and in all relevant countries it is necessary to impose Soviet orders (again, ridiculously so).

Nixonhead already said the Soviet Union Collapse, in this circumstance the Reunification will still happen, as the Soviets will not be paying to prop up communist countries like before (they did this from Europe to north korea), and the GDR WILL NOT be able to afford the huge social spending in the change to a privatized country

Well, I agree here - if the Eastern Bloc falls apart, the GDR will disappear, and it will be the first to be surrendered. But I would not destroy the USSR. Nothing good will come of this.

 

[Ry01tank]

Here I’ll return to our ideological differences (which, as I suggest, is useless - we still won’t convince each other). But as someone who studied the USSR and lives on its ruins, I note that this option does not always work - in the USSR of the seventies, individual taxes were very small, and mostly these were small utility bills. There were, of course, more peculiar taxes, for example, a tax on bachelors (if at a certain point we were unmarried and without children, then we had to pay). But in general, the Soviet citizen of that time had a ridiculous amount of extra money. The fact is, for example, that on average cinemas were visited more than 10 times a month (here, of course, the development of television networks also played a role, but in Moscow there were no problems with this, and still, even adult Muscovites spent money on cheap tickets at any free minute ). At the same time, there were many social programs, and a huge number of social services were free.

I get my oppinion of Communism from people who live here who talk about it, different pov's
Didn't know that, but i guess they built there fiscal system differently. In Western countries spending power is usually high, it only goes down during economic recessions and inflation, in the US and Canada inflation is high right now, so prices are high, nearly every movie underperformed last year except Barbie and Oppenheimer to an extent

In the West our education system was different, so we didn't get told the stuff you said, but i do wonder how the Soviets and the bloc paid for the subsidies with no taxes

Which when the bloc fell, would become an issue as the high social spending would need to be paid for by higher taxes, in Canada our taxes are high (not as high as in Europe)

You don’t know Stalin well - until 1948, Stalin viewed Eastern Europe as a “barrier cordon” rather than as allies or puppets (the Baltic republics were perceived in the same way by some European countries). It got to the point of ridiculousness - in particular, when the Romanian communists announced that they were ready to immediately declare a republic, but Stalin said that it was necessary to preserve the monarchy. The German communists said that the Social Democrats were ready to create a common party with them (they say we have the same program), but he replied that no, create a separate party for them - very ironic. Eastern Europe was supposed to become one big Finland - that is, a bunch of bourgeois-democratic regimes, some of which would pay reparations. Moreover, at that time there was a policy that each “workers’” party would have its own “national path to socialism.” This also applied to Germany - Stalin would be satisfied with a Germany that pays reparations (which you correctly noted) and does not have its own army (or has one, but not a large one). The United States was not happy with the latter, especially since the growing grip of the USSR in Europe could not help but strain, especially when there was a real possibility that the communists would come to power in Italy and France, and there would be a civil war in Greece. Already after 1948, the course began that “People’s Democracy” is an analogue of Soviet power, and in all relevant countries it is necessary to impose Soviet orders (again, ridiculously so).

In Canada, we got told he was an evil dictator who was loved due to cult of personality. I understand why he took over the eastern countries, the Soviets paid for the land in blood and would thus not give it up easily. Plus Barborossa and the war would give them a want to have as much buffer as possible. When it comes to how the Soviets Communized the Eastern countries what you described is puppet regime 101, basically put in a government that has a specific ideology but is ultimately loyal to another government. But when you look at the humanitarian stuff it was horrible what happened with deportations and arrests

Well, I agree here - if the Eastern Bloc falls apart, the GDR will disappear, and it will be the first to be surrendered. But I would not destroy the USSR. Nothing good will come of this.

Ya, no matter what unification was going to happen, putting it off by even a year would require huge social changes to BOTH countries, and with borders open East Germany would have the same flight of people, but worse in this case.

The Soviet collapse basically fucked a lot of stuff over, Russia today is still kinda messed up due to it (from what i know). It would have fallen eventually, expecially with Chernobyl and the flight of the bloc to the West. Too bad the hardliners decided to coup, they ruined the best chance of the Union staying together
Which to be realistic would still be a mess due to privatisation, but likely less of an absolute shit show like OTL

 

[Apollo-21]

We need a new cliche to emerge on this site’s works. And that cliche being Nazarbayev leading the survived USSR.

 

[Ogrebear]

This The High Frontier show sounds like the sort of thing I would have watched for season 1 and maybe 2, then quit with the changes in 3.

I like posts like this as it underlines how different this timeline is from OTL. It’s canon to me.

Can we have more on Star Trek: Phase II and other pop culture stuff when you can please.

 

[WotanArgead]

In the West our education system was different, so we didn't get told the stuff you said, but i do wonder how the Soviets and the bloc paid for the subsidies with no taxes

Firstly, I talked about individual taxes. There were also taxes associated with collective structures. For example, income taxes - and if we were talking about state-owned enterprises (and there were a majority of them in the seventies), then these were direct contributions to the budget. If we were talking about cooperatives, then there was also an income tax (however, during the time of Khrushchev, the activities of cooperatives were strictly limited). Income from all foreign economic activity went directly to the state treasury (including “petrodollars”), and was already spent on state needs. Plus there was social insurance.

But when you look at the humanitarian stuff it was horrible what happened with deportations and arrests

There are many interesting points here - for example, in Czechoslovakia, the deportation of Germans began even before the elections on the instructions of President Benes. This was a general political consensus that was shared by all the main parties - the Germans were responsible for the death of the First Republic and they must be taken revenge. Moreover, when the elections took place, there was a ban on voting for Germans and Hungarians who had not changed their citizenship after the partition of Czechoslovakia. Simply because they could vote for the communists (for refusal to accept German or Hungarian citizenship indicated intransigence).

 

[Sasza]

I very nearly went for a TKS style approach, on the basis that it's much more acheivable, but in the end the OTL reasons for wanting a shuttle (principally technology development for French industry) seemed like they'd still hold up ITTL, especially as there is no realistic chance of ESA going to the moon anytime soon.

However, this would be a repetition of the story from "Boldly Going". There will be no ATV in this timeline, so I'm counting on some creative ideas for using the possibilities of HTV plus Hermes.

 

[Michel Van]

The GDR was a political and economic corpse.

it was ruined by own Politburo under Honecker orthodox communism.
And Erich Mielke of STASI who arrested every one deviationist and reformers.

They driven every investor out GDR with there orthodox communism or sabotage there own export with insane dogmas.
Like "gasoline engines are capitalist excesses, the Two-stroke engine is goal of communist motorisation"
Only that wester nation buy cars with gasoline engines NOT with Two-stroke engine.
So lose the GDR very lucrative Car Export Business in 1970s do orthodox communism...

 

[Ry01tank]

Firstly, I talked about individual taxes. There were also taxes associated with collective structures. For example, income taxes - and if we were talking about state-owned enterprises (and there were a majority of them in the seventies), then these were direct contributions to the budget. If we were talking about cooperatives, then there was also an income tax (however, during the time of Khrushchev, the activities of cooperatives were strictly limited). Income from all foreign economic activity went directly to the state treasury (including “petrodollars”), and was already spent on state needs. Plus there was social insurance.

Ok, when a communist country went to a capitalist one, the profits from business and stuff (state-owned stuff) evaporated, East Germany on its own would not be able to sustain the welfare and social programs that are now in a capitalist society without huge taxes on its citizens
areas in today's east Germany still have higher taxes as some regions kept higher social spending, but the rest of Germany has lower taxes. Plus West Germany was unwilling to expand their spending just for one part of the country's benefit

Not to mention East Germany had a huge ass guarded border which shot people attempting to leave the country as it was a endemic problem before the wall was built. This is not exactly a utopia (this was supposed to be below, sorry)

There are many interesting points here - for example, in Czechoslovakia, the deportation of Germans began even before the elections on the instructions of President Benes. This was a general political consensus that was shared by all the main parties - the Germans were responsible for the death of the First Republic and they must be taken revenge. Moreover, when the elections took place, there was a ban on voting for Germans and Hungarians who had not changed their citizenship after the partition of Czechoslovakia. Simply because they could vote for the communists (for refusal to accept German or Hungarian citizenship indicated intransigence).

I was talking about soviet deportations, specifically in Poland, where Germans were forcibly removed from lands that were German/Prussian for a thousand years right after the war ended (this happened in 45 to 48).
I do get the revenge aspect, but it is still wrong to discriminate against your own country's people because their ethnic country was totally fucked. The Soviet expansion wasn't as wanted as you seem to claim. The Soviets let Warsaw be put down (get rid of political enemies) and purposely put in friendly puppet communist regimes instead of democratic or allowing the pre-war government to regain power (Poland). Collectivization in these countries was horrible, east Germany had to stop as it was killing people. The elections you talk about usually had a huge push for communist governments, i'll bet they were rigged for the communist parties as Stalin wanted the buffer zone and friendly governments, a democratic capitalist country (say Poland or Hungary) would cause issues. This is why Churchill said a iron curtain has fallen over Europe
On paper and in Russia this stuff might seem more nicer due to the fact this stuff is usually played down to be more friendly to the narrative of Soviet exeptionallism and greatness over facism post Patriotic War

it was ruined by own Politburo under Honecker orthodox communism.
And Erich Mielke of STASI who arrested every one deviationist and reformers.

They driven every investor out GDR with there orthodox communism or sabotage there own export with insane dogmas.
Like "gasoline engines are capitalist excesses, the Two-stroke engine is goal of communist motorisation"
Only that wester nation buy cars with gasoline engines NOT with Two-stroke engine.
So lose the GDR very lucrative Car Export Business in 1970s do orthodox communism...

TWO STROKE ENGINES? No wonder communist cars were called pieces of shit
wtf
Clearly the superior to gasoline engines, after all it is a WORKERS republic, and clearly not indicitive of Soviet and communist systematic flaws and cheapness
A 13 year wait for one is also pretty reasonable, its a forward investment

How people argue that system is better then Capitalism is amazing and indicative of the revisionist history and not talking to anybody who lived in that time. I watched one of those historian/veteran reviews movies earlier, a Vietnam historian said We Were Soldiers was 4/10 for accuracy, when it is THE most accurate Vietnam movie (he also criticized other stuff that was real)

 

[Sasza]

I was talking about soviet deportations, specifically in Poland, where Germans were forcibly removed from lands that were German/Prussian for a thousand years right after the war ended (this happened in 45 to 48).

Decisions on displacement were made at a conference of the Big Three and these were not Polish but German citizens.

Secondly, most of them had already left during the war and what was left, so the percentage that was deported was small.

It was the most pragmatic move looking to have a stable state.

Stalin also initially sought to install communists in the conquered countries, in Poland it began in 1944 by murdering partisans.

 

[prolemasses]

Wait, am I reading correctly in post 7 that the Japanese are not contributing an HTV type cargo vehicle, but a co-orbital station that also serves as a detached service module for Columbus? How does that work, is it resupplied by Hermes?

 

[Sasza]

Wait, am I reading correctly in post 7 that the Japanese are not contributing an HTV type cargo vehicle, but a co-orbital station that also serves as a detached service module for Columbus? How does that work, is it resupplied by Hermes?

The Japanese provide HTV, in return Europe builds the second Columbus, which will be handed over to Japan.

 

[PrussianCaptain12345]

Decisions on displacement were made at a conference of the Big Three and these were not Polish but German citizens.

Secondly, most of them had already left during the war and what was left, so the percentage that was deported was small.

It was the most pragmatic move looking to have a stable state.

Stalin also initially sought to install communists in the conquered countries, in Poland it began in 1944 by murdering partisans.

2 and a half million died. That's not small. 14 million in total expelled. Again not small. Pragmatism has never excused atrocities.

 

[Sasza]

2 and a half million died. That's not small. 14 million in total expelled. Again not small. Pragmatism has never excused atrocities.

2 million is nonsense based on the theses of German revisionists. Ionn Haar gives the number only 500,000.

 

[Ry01tank]

Decisions on displacement were made at a conference of the Big Three and these were not Polish but German citizens.

That is abolute bullshit, America and Britian objected heavily to the Soviet expansion into the eastern countries. Stalin had the people move to make each country less likely to claim their former land, expecially Poland, which had alot of its area annexed into belerus and ukraine. Those German Citizens lived on the Prussian lands for millennia, they were moved so Germany wouldn't have a huge ass claim on what is now Poland.
Learn your facts and not Soviet propaganda

Secondly, most of them had already left during the war and what was left, so the percentage that was deported was small.

Alot left due to the Soviets exacting vengence on the population, massacres, and other stuff that i do not want to say (expecially against woman). Yes i know the germans were brutal but it doesn't justify either

It was the most pragmatic move looking to have a stable state.

You seem really ok with foreign takovers of countries. And i would hardly call the collectivization in the Eastern Bloc stable, MILLIONS DIED

Stalin also initially sought to install communists in the conquered countries, in Poland it began in 1944 by murdering partisans.

So you admit they killed people to make their regime more stable, furthers the point that this was a bad thing and not nationalistic fervor for communism

2 million is nonsense based on the theses of German revisionists. Ionn Haar gives the number only 500,000.

I'd rather trust the people of the same ethicity, not a guy (Ingo Haar) accused of undercutting deaths and stuff, the true number will never be known, but 500 thousand PEOPLE is still a lot of people, those "German Revisionist" reports were the ACTUAL official reports and not just estimates

The fact you seem to justify warcrimes and humanitarian crimes as fine makes me uncomfortable, please stop talking on this subject

 

[Ry01tank]

2 million is nonsense based on the theses of German revisionists. Ionn Haar gives the number only 500,000.

Not to mention 12-14 million germans were moved

 

[Blyatnik]

Not to mention 12-14 million germans were moved

Do you mean during the war? I don't think war refugees moving away from battle should be considered as intentional forced migration. Especially if they leave towards their own country (or deeper into it) of their own volition.

 

[Ry01tank]

Do you mean during the war? I don't think war refugees moving away from battle should be considered as intentional forced migration. Especially if they leave towards their own country (or deeper into it) of their own volition.

Both during and after the war, most of the people were moved after though (around 8-10 million)

 

[Garrison]

Perhaps the discussion of the merits of East Germany and the Communist system versus West Germany and capitalism would be more appropriate elsewhere. All that matters in the context of the TL is that if @nixonshead choose to postpone the fall of the USSR or the reunification of Germany there are plenty of options available.

 

[Ry01tank]

Perhaps the discussion of the merits of East Germany and the Communist system versus West Germany and capitalism would be more appropriate elsewhere. All that matters in the context of the TL is that if @nixonshead choose to postpone the fall of the USSR or the reunification of Germany there are plenty of options available.

agreed

 

[PrussianCaptain12345]

2 million is nonsense based on the theses of German revisionists. Ionn Haar gives the number only 500,000.

Ry01tank has already answered you on how 2 million is actual official number and Ionn Haar undercuts death tolls but disregarding that half a million people dead is half a million too many not to mention over 14 million expelled.