A Blunted Sickle

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naraht

pdf27 said:
Even then it isn't all that hard - the Nevada test site is only 100km or so from Las Vegas, and at one point the atmospheric nuclear testing conducted there was a tourist attraction. Very big atmospheric tests are difficult, but even then not impossible - the majority of tests run out of Christmas Island for instance were aimed at a water target, so conducting a test in international waters is certainly possible, just logistically very hard work.


Short or long term? In the long run the British and French are going to end up with some sort of Pacific test site. In the short run they'll do what they did at the Trinity test and carry out the first one or two tests as close as practicable to the laboratory responsible for building the bomb.


If you want a couple of hundred extra megawatts, there are much better options.


What do you mean "to" the Rhine - I've just shifted the first one into position on the far side of the Rhine!
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Where did Austria Hungary have that was 100km away from significant population centers? (I have no idea whether AH expected suitable colonies from UK/France in a CP Victory)

Given that the French ended up using Algeria and the British used Australia, why would a combined program end up using the Pacific Islands?

Other Hydro projects?

I keep forgetting that Fortress Holland essentially spans the Rhine delta.
 

naraht

Saphroneth said:
Part of me wants it to be in Manicougan as that has a history - and it would be a fun thing to come up over and over again in future history/geography classes. "No, the giant circular lake was not the result of nuclear tests."
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If they do, maybe they can use the nukes to make eyes, a nose and a smile...
 

pdf27

naraht said:
Given that the French ended up using Algeria and the British used Australia, why would a combined program end up using the Pacific Islands?
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Umm... because when the bombs get really, really big having 1,000 miles of sea between you and the nearest village of any size gets quite attractive ;)
Seriously, in OTL both ended up using Pacific test sites (Christmas/Malden Islands and Muraroa respectively) when the bombs got just too big for tower tests.

naraht said:
Other Hydro projects?
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The most obvious is Beauharnois - the dam was already built at this point, but it didn't reach full capacity until 1962. It only had 200 MW of capacity at the POD, with a further 400 MW added by 1953 with as I understand it no further civil engineering works (just installing the turbines and power lines). That's more than was required by the whole of the Manhattan project, in just the right part of the country - so no new dams will be needed.

naraht said:
I keep forgetting that Fortress Holland essentially spans the Rhine delta.
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Yep. Once you blow through the Water Line then the next major obstacle is the Elbe. Once you get that far, the chances of significant resistance are pretty slim.

Decius00009 said:
Does Trump still get elected in this TL? Too soon?
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About 75 years too soon - at the rate I'm writing this, I'll get to the 2016 election in about 2090!
 

Decius00009

Banned
pdf27 said:
Yep. Once you blow through the Water Line then the next major obstacle is the Elbe. Once you get that far, the chances of significant resistance are pretty slim.
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Very true. But the French armies still have to blow through the Rhine defences head on, and there is no way in hell that they will allow the British armies to reach Berlin first
 

pdf27

Decius00009 said:
Very true. But the French armies still have to blow through the Rhine defences head on, and there is no way in hell that they will allow the British armies to reach Berlin first
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What on earth makes you think the British are going to go for a single axis attack on Berlin? That goes against their entire grand strategy for the war to date, and brings up memories of the German fiasco at Paris.
 

arkades

pdf27 said:
in OTL both ended up using Pacific test sites (Christmas/Malden Islands and Muraroa respectively) when the bombs got just too big for tower tests.
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The Evian accords, which gave Algeria its independence, had a section that authorized France to conduct nuclear tests in the Sahara desert for a limited time. It is only after the expiration of this authorization that the test were conducted in the Pacific.

If the bomb is produced in France or in Great Britain, were is it easier to test ?
The desert 2000 or 3000 km away or in the Pacific, over 15 000 km away ?

I think in TTL, the same is likely to happen: first tests in the desert, then when the concerns over the radioactive fallout arise, go to the middle of the ocean.
 

pdf27

arkades said:
If the bomb is produced in France or in Great Britain, were is it easier to test ?
The desert 2000 or 3000 km away or in the Pacific, over 15 000 km away ?
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Given the amount of test equipment to be transported out there, the typical answer is "whichever is closer to a decent port and runway".
 

naraht

pdf27 said:
Umm... because when the bombs get really, really big having 1,000 miles of sea between you and the nearest village of any size gets quite attractive ;)
Seriously, in OTL both ended up using Pacific test sites (Christmas/Malden Islands and Muraroa respectively) when the bombs got just too big for tower tests.


The most obvious is Beauharnois - the dam was already built at this point, but it didn't reach full capacity until 1962. It only had 200 MW of capacity at the POD, with a further 400 MW added by 1953 with as I understand it no further civil engineering works (just installing the turbines and power lines). That's more than was required by the whole of the Manhattan project, in just the right part of the country - so no new dams will be needed.


Yep. Once you blow through the Water Line then the next major obstacle is the Elbe. Once you get that far, the chances of significant resistance are pretty slim.


About 75 years too soon - at the rate I'm writing this, I'll get to the 2016 election in about 2090!
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See issues about AH or PLC with Nuclear testing....

Interesting about Beauharnois, Things are really working well for a bi-lingual atomic effort. The question is whether the Entente would be comfortable with the work being that close the USA border.
 

pdf27

Realistically they have very little choice - they can start work along the St Lawrence in Canada, or they can wait until some time after the war (postwar there is going to be a focus on civil infrastructure for a few years, if only to ward off the threat of a communist takeover as per the OTL Welfare State work) and start it in the UK or France. Given that they shared the MAUD data with the US who weren't interested, I don't think having a lab close to the US border will be a particular concern.
It is fascinating just how well all the pieces of the puzzle do come together for an Entente bomb programme ITTL though, isn't it? All OTL stuff as well:
  • The MAUD committee report correctly identified bomb effects, critical mass and what in OTL proved to be an industrially practicable way to manufacture it.
  • Canada has the resources, infrastructure and manpower needed to carry out such a project (note that conscription was a big deal, particularly in Quebec - this provides them a way to contribute to the war effort without sending men off to fight.)
  • Many of the guys who were critical to the implosion method were British or French, and before the POD the French were the world leaders in shaped charges and explosive lenses. That means they're in a very good position to cope with one of the hardest engineering problems they face.
  • With the work on air-to-air refuelling for Coastal Command and the high-altitude Wellingtons for Bomber Command they're groping their way towards a viable delivery system - both of these are OTL but shelved in late 1940.
  • The changed circumstances of the war have freed up a vast amount of cash and resources - they spend more on Bomber Command in OTL than was spent on the Manhattan Project, and here the Entente project is likely to be about a third of the size & cost of the OTL Manhattan Project due to the reduced number of approaches taken.
One caveat though - progress isn't going to be quick: they would be doing remarkably well to have a single weapon ready for test by the time of the OTL Trinity test, despite the head start and having made all the right guesses. They simply don't have the industrial backup the US did, and that will show.
 

Undeadmuffin

naraht said:
See issues about AH or PLC with Nuclear testing....

Interesting about Beauharnois, Things are really working well for a bi-lingual atomic effort. The question is whether the Entente would be comfortable with the work being that close the USA border.
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Why not, its not like they will detonate it right next of the town
 
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