1849: The United Federal Confederation of Germany
- Thread starter Kaiser James I
- Start date
I think it would be "Empire of the Germans", or "Kaiserreich der Deutschen". As in France, when Napoleon was Emperor of the French rather than emperor of France: a hereditary, monarchic title, which expresses the importance of the people.
And I think I remember that the Title offered was "Emperor of the Germans" and not "German Emperor" - seems little difference, but means a lot to liberal democrats, and after all, those will have great influence in this Germany.
By the way, do you think that the new Emperor would help his fellow Germans in Austria against the Habsburgs, who attack the revolutionaries in Austria-Hungary with help of the russians? After all, the Habsburgs oppose the Paulskirche and thus the Emperor, the Germans in Austria certainly do not!
And I think I remember that the Title offered was "Emperor of the Germans" and not "German Emperor" - seems little difference, but means a lot to liberal democrats, and after all, those will have great influence in this Germany.
By the way, do you think that the new Emperor would help his fellow Germans in Austria against the Habsburgs, who attack the revolutionaries in Austria-Hungary with help of the russians? After all, the Habsburgs oppose the Paulskirche and thus the Emperor, the Germans in Austria certainly do not!
If the Austrians try to crush the 1848 revolutions in states that are part of the new liberal Germany, I would expect a swift stomping. Shooting into crowds of protestors is one thing; facing the full might of Prussia is something else entirely.
Hmm...perhaps the Hapsburgs are ejected, Hungary successfuly splits off, and we have a mega-liberal-Germany stretching from the Adriatic to the Baltic and North Seas?
David S Poepoe
Banned
I thought it was the other way around. That Wilhelm was offered the title of 'German Emperor' since he was going to be more 'first among equals' with the other various German kings and princes. I think it took alot of deliberating on Bismarck's part.
I think you're right. If I remember correctly, I believe Wilelm was rather unhappy with it...Emperor of the Germans seems to mean that Willie can't be emperor of anybody but Germans...
Actually, I believe its more of a contradiction. A federation splits power between the national and regional governments. A confederation leaves almost all power to the regional governments. Hence the Articles of Confederation but the current Federal government.
Sorry, but No!
The "first among equal" things organized by Bismarck would be 1871. Bismarck became Prime Minister of Prussia in 1862.
1848 the democratically elected parliament of the Paulskirche in Frankfurt offered a title for the Prussian King - thus Democrats chose their emperor then, and they wanted a "Kaiser der Deutschen", that is "Emperor of the Germans", their kings and princes weren't asked about it. 1871 they became an "Emperor of Germany" when their kings and princes could be convinced to do so thanks to the victory in France.
So 1848 would be a chance to get a democratically elected "emperor of the Germans". This is what this thread is about: not the militaristic, conservatice Germany united by Bismarck, but the more liberal - and maybe greater - Germany united by elected Members of Parliament in Frankfurt.
Austria IS allready heavily involved, since the German parts of Austria elected members of that parliament, too. And as the Habsburgs tried to suppress the revolution, they even executed some of those members of parliament. Thus, when the Hungarians could last longer in their revolution, and the Italians could be better, and the German Austrians were more successfull, too, and the rest of Germany would help their "revolutionary brethren" in Austria against the Habsburgs and the Russians, who helped them suppress the revolution, the revolution could end with a Germany that really stretches from the Baltic sea to the mediterranean, closely allied with an independent Hungary and a newly united Italy!
Hapsburg
Banned
In 1848, Frederick William IV was offerred the title "Emperor of the Germans". He refused on the grounds that it was "A title from the gutter", or offerred by the commoners.
In 1871, when Germany was united, William I wanted the title "Emperor of Germany", but the federated monarchs would never allow it, so he instead took the title "German Emperor".
The Emperor of a more liberal germany united in 1848-49 would take the title "Emperor of the Germans".
In 1871, when Germany was united, William I wanted the title "Emperor of Germany", but the federated monarchs would never allow it, so he instead took the title "German Emperor".
The Emperor of a more liberal germany united in 1848-49 would take the title "Emperor of the Germans".
Here's what I pulled from Wikipedia:
"The relationship between the title of "king" and "emperor" in the area that is today called Germany is just as complicated as the history and the structure of the Holy Roman Empire itself. The following remarks may or may not clarify things a little (for details, refer to the Holy Roman Empire article):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Emperor
"The relationship between the title of "king" and "emperor" in the area that is today called Germany is just as complicated as the history and the structure of the Holy Roman Empire itself. The following remarks may or may not clarify things a little (for details, refer to the Holy Roman Empire article):
- The Holy Roman Empire (although only titled as such much later) started when Charlemagne, King of the Franks and the Lombards was crowned Emperor of the Romans in 800. The Kingdom of Germany started out as the eastern section of the Frankish kingdom, which was split by the Treaty of Verdun in 843 (while the western section eventually became France). The rulers of the eastern area thus called themselves rex Francorum, king of the Franks, and later just rex. A reference to the "Germans", indicating the emergence of a German nation of some sort, did not appear until the eleventh century, when the pope referred to his enemy Henry IV as rex teutonicorum, King of the Teutons, in order to brand him as a foreigner. The kings reacted by consistently using the title rex Romanorum, King of the Romans, to emphasize their universal rule even before becoming Emperor. This title remained until the end of the Empire in 1806 (but in this and related entries, the kings are called kings of Germany, for clarity's sake.)
- The kingdom was never entirely hereditary; instead, ancestry was only one of the factors that determined the succession of kings. The king was formally elected by the leading nobilty in the realm, continuing the Frankish tradition. Gradually the election became the privilege of a group of princes called Electors and the Golden Bull of 1356 formally defined election proceedings.
- In the Middle Ages, the King did not assume the title "Emperor" (since 982 the full title was Imperator Augustus Romanorum, August Emperor of the Romans) until crowned by the Pope. He also had to be crowned with the Iron Crown of Lombardy, after which he assumed the title of rex Italicum, King of Italy. After this he would ride on to Rome and be crowned Emperor by the Pope.
- In 1508 Maximilian I was the first king who announced that henceforth he would use the title of "Emperor-Elect", after his attempt to march to Rome and be crowned by the Pope had failed. His successor, Charles V, was the last emperor to be crowned by the Pope. From Ferdinand I onwards, all Emperors were merely "Emperors-Elect", although they were normally referred to as "the Emperor." At the same time, chosen successors of the Habsburg emperors."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Emperor
Darkest
Banned
I used a lot of points on this thread for my 19th century ATL, Sidney. Frederick doesn't accept the crown, but does have more victories against Denmark and others because the Russians aren't bugging him to cease and desist. He also begins a war against Bavaria, with the Russians standing down (thanks to Tsar Alexander II taking power sooner).
What's the date of the map there, KJ? Or is it counterfactual?
What's the date of the map there, KJ? Or is it counterfactual?
OK, who cares? They both sound fine. Back to the main discussion: If this liberal Germany pops up, I expect Liberal Britain to step up. The U.S. likes democracies, so if WW1 happens, the U.S.A. is more likely to assist the Deutch.
It's date is in the 1870s with the somewhat unified German Empire.
How about a WW1 with the Central Powers of Germany, Austria-Hungary, Ottoman Empire, and Britain fighting against the Allies Russia and France? That war wouldn't last too long.
And with Britain fighting with the CP, America won't need to get involved.
Last edited:
I'd say that by 1914, Austria-Hungary is no more. Liberal Germany would desperately hope for a chance to "free" other Germans, let them be in Austria (where the revolution was subdued against protests of the Paulskirche and Paulskirche-parliamentarians were executed) or Alsace. I'd think when Sardinia wanted to unite Italy, they wouldn't go to Napoleon to ask for help, but for their recently united brethren in century-long partition: Germany. Hence the Germans would help the Italians to unite their country - and conquer Austria and Bohemia, Hungary becoming independent (with some German prince as king - there are always some at hand).
Maybe Napoleon allies with the Habsburgs against this, and the first World war starts in the 19th century. Or Germany wins, and the "Axis of the unified countries" becomes the major poer on the continent.
A truly unified, liberal Germany in 1848 would have several main political goals:
1. bring home German lands uner Habsurg rule
2. Help liberalism
3. bring home German lands under French rule
4. an own colonial Empire - and given the enourmous number of German emmigrants, the German colonial Empire might well be one of the largest and most developed. What would Britain think about that?
5. Economic development (given the influence of the bourgousie in such a liberal Germany, economic growth might even exceed what we saw IOTL)
The U.S. likes democracies, but Americans also like people who are like them. This association would favor the British over the Germans.
Yeah, and that probably works for the Germans too, as they'll probably have great relations anyway