Would Japan surrender conditionally without an invasion or atomic bombs?

The Japanese high command would probably just say that once several million starve to death, supply will finally meet demand and a new equilibrium will be established.
I have not read the minutes of the meetings, nor the memos myself. Those who have trawled those tell that the leaders saw the famine as a given, and a general collapse during th winter as a given. There were some who may have thought they could just feed the army and essential production workers and carry on. The rest do not seem to have thought that realistic. Of particular note are the thoughts about morale in the Army. As I mentioned before the solderers were seldom more than a few hundred kilometers from their families and friends. Many in the third tier reserve units and militia just tens of kilometers away. They all knew just how bad it was and how the situation was liable to be worse in a few weeks or months.

We also need to look beyond the cliches and American or European misunderstandings of Japanese culture at this moment in history. The Chief of staff of the Japanese 10th Army defending Okinawa survived that battle. his post war account has been translated into English. Concise and clinical, or professional is its narrative it does not describe the Japanese civilians & soldiers on Okinawa as a solid disciplined cohort. he describes the civilians as mostly ignoring efforts to have them assist the military. Some did, but he describes the areas unoccupied by the enemy as filled with Japanese civilians trying to hide or escape the battle. He also describes the local Japanese militia battalions as breaking down the first time each enters combat and rapidly becoming useless. Similarly the reservist battalion mobilized from the Japanese population of Okinawa fell apart just a little slower. A few days of combat were enough to trigger significant desertions. As Army Chief of Staff he saw the reports on how the Kemptai unit, and the military police were unable to contain the evasion or desertion of the mass of Japanese.

He describes the first tier Army regiments as retaining discipline much longer. He implies they might have held together yet longer but for what he regarded as a extremely stupid and pointless massed daylight attack by the two good quality or regular army divisions. This attack included severe casualties among the remaining combat worthy battalions from concentrated enemy firepower, the loss of ammunition reserves, and the gain of only few hundred meters of broken terrain. After that attack the main strength of the defense was broken and the next two weeks of resistance was by small ad hoc groups of fanatics. Meanwhile in those weeks US records show masses of Japanese nationals, both civilians and soldiers surrendering. A portion of these soldiers were still armed, but had not interest in either resisting or suicide. The interrogation reports indicate they simply wanted to eat.

Bottom line from study of Japanese behavior in the Okinawa battle was different from the island battles like Tarawa. Pellieu, Guan, or Saipan. There were certainly many fanatics on Okinawa, and the general resistance was longer and more fanatical than the general German behavior, or even the SS & nazi fanatics. But, the Okinawan battle indicates at least a few assumptions about Japanese fanaticism, discipline, loyalty to the Emperor were not what the pop history cliches suggest.
 
Bottom line from study of Japanese behavior in the Okinawa battle was different from the island battles like Tarawa. Pellieu, Guan, or Saipan. There were certainly many fanatics on Okinawa, and the general resistance was longer and more fanatical than the general German behavior, or even the SS & nazi fanatics. But, the Okinawan battle indicates at least a few assumptions about Japanese fanaticism, discipline, loyalty to the Emperor were not what the pop history cliches suggest.
Am familiar with Yahara and his report.

I would argue that the Japanese forces on Okinawa were not the best quality or best led (as evidenced by the failed X-Day offensive and the proportionally lower American casualties compared to say Iwo and Peleliu), so they can be treated as an outlier.
 
Outlier? the battle or campaign was too large and the circumstances much closer to conditions in Japan for me to see it as a exception. There are some parallels on Guandacanal or on New Guinea, and in the upper Solomons battles where the IJA regiments proved less fanatic than those trapped on the small islands

I would argue that the Japanese forces on Okinawa were not the best quality or best led (as evidenced by the failed X-Day offensive and the proportionally lower American casualties compared to say Iwo and Peleliu), so they can be treated as an outlier.

That that is part of the point. On the home islands in 1945 only a small number of the infantry regiments of divisions were elite. The bulk of the 'Army' formations were good, bad, and ugly. The mass of third tier reservists, militia, and "citizens resistance" groups are not going to be much different in training, equipment, leadership, than those on Okinawa. The Army formations are overall similar to those in the S Pacific or the Philippines. I strongly suspect they are going to make many of the same errors as made in those distant campaigns, and have similar handicaps in equipment and training.

The lower US ratio of casualties to participants had many causes. one was the US 10th Army drew on its experience and was using better tactics, making better use of firepower as it were. Yes they were not perfect, but Buckner, Geiger, and the corps - division - regiment - battalion commanders were improved in skill and in fire power available. Had the proportion of supporting firepower per rifle battalion on Okinawa been available at Betio island, and the skill in using it that tiny island battle would have been over in 24 hours vs 72+
 

Freshift

Banned
Were the Japanese leaders aiming for a conditional surrender? Yes
So if the Americans were that much willing to concede that much, then the Japanese wouldn't mind suing for peace

However
Were they capable of reaching agreement on how would that surrender look like? No

The Japanese leadership was deadlocked by its 3-to-3 stalemate even after two A-bombs and Soviet invasion, officers weren't changing their mind, civilians weren't changing their mind, only Hirohito changed the position by supporting surrender after sitting on the fence for months before. Some says he actively communicated with his courtiers to break this stalemate, some rejects the idea, but that's not the point of discussion. What's relevant to the topic is that Hirohito making up his mind and breaking the stalemate made it possible for the Japanese leadership to reach the conclusion

As pointed out in earlier posts, Hirohito made two explanations in his rescripts, one rescript mentioning A-bombs (for civilians) and the other mentioning Soviet invasion (for military). Historians can only speculate which event was more important for Hirohito. But without A-bomb and Soviet invasion, there is no good motivating force to pivot the Japanese leadership and Hirohito into change their position and break the deadlock
 
Outlier? the battle or campaign was too large and the circumstances much closer to conditions in Japan for me to see it as a exception. There are some parallels on Guandacanal or on New Guinea, and in the upper Solomons battles where the IJA regiments proved less fanatic than those trapped on the small islands
Trapped on a small island also means there's nowhere to go, while in the other theatres there is a way out (either hide in the jungle or get evacuated). On Okinawa and the homeland, there may also be relatives (fairly) nearby, which also makes a difference. Regiments staying on an island for a long time (all the while having nowhere to go, since the US ruled the ocean and the Japanese were resourcelimited) mean there will also be a different state of mind and some indoctrination going on (if everyone is constantly saying they're going to fight till the last bullit, that will have an impact, while if you're regularly seeing civilians that'll leave much more of an impression there is actually something to live for).
 
Provocation: is there any way after Pearl Harbour in which the IJN’s institutional opinion would be relevant to the surrender debates?
 
Were the Japanese leaders aiming for a conditional surrender? Yes

Take a look at the peace proposal the Japanese government sent to the US embassy in Switzerland early summer 1945. Labeling it surrender conditions stretches the term past its breaking point. The core point was Japan gave up nothing militarily. Zero demobilization of its armed forces or post war restriction on expansion. Second this 'peace' did not extend to China. Any armistice of peace negotiations with the KMT government were entirely separate. The only major concession was the evacuation of the Japanese military from the former European colonies & Philippines. Other wise Japan got to keep its pre 1941 empire, and its occupied territories in China.

Now they may have conceded some details to get to a final peace settlement, but it looks clear they were aiming for something close to a 'white peace' where they lose nothing from the core empire or from their future ability to make war.
 
A senior figure in the Japanese education ministry once lamented: "To kids of today, history began when Gundam began. They think the Americans were our allies during WW2 and Martians were the enemy."
Well, duh. There's a reason the first year is UC01... ;)
 
I have not read the minutes of the meetings, nor the memos myself. Those who have trawled those tell that the leaders saw the famine as a given, and a general collapse during th winter as a given. There were some who may have thought they could just feed the army and essential production workers and carry on. The rest do not seem to have thought that realistic. Of particular note are the thoughts about morale in the Army. As I mentioned before the solderers were seldom more than a few hundred kilometers from their families and friends. Many in the third tier reserve units and militia just tens of kilometers away. They all knew just how bad it was and how the situation was liable to be worse in a few weeks or months.

We also need to look beyond the cliches and American or European misunderstandings of Japanese culture at this moment in history. The Chief of staff of the Japanese 10th Army defending Okinawa survived that battle. his post war account has been translated into English. Concise and clinical, or professional is its narrative it does not describe the Japanese civilians & soldiers on Okinawa as a solid disciplined cohort. he describes the civilians as mostly ignoring efforts to have them assist the military. Some did, but he describes the areas unoccupied by the enemy as filled with Japanese civilians trying to hide or escape the battle. He also describes the local Japanese militia battalions as breaking down the first time each enters combat and rapidly becoming useless. Similarly the reservist battalion mobilized from the Japanese population of Okinawa fell apart just a little slower. A few days of combat were enough to trigger significant desertions. As Army Chief of Staff he saw the reports on how the Kemptai unit, and the military police were unable to contain the evasion or desertion of the mass of Japanese.

He describes the first tier Army regiments as retaining discipline much longer. He implies they might have held together yet longer but for what he regarded as a extremely stupid and pointless massed daylight attack by the two good quality or regular army divisions. This attack included severe casualties among the remaining combat worthy battalions from concentrated enemy firepower, the loss of ammunition reserves, and the gain of only few hundred meters of broken terrain. After that attack the main strength of the defense was broken and the next two weeks of resistance was by small ad hoc groups of fanatics. Meanwhile in those weeks US records show masses of Japanese nationals, both civilians and soldiers surrendering. A portion of these soldiers were still armed, but had not interest in either resisting or suicide. The interrogation reports indicate they simply wanted to eat.

Bottom line from study of Japanese behavior in the Okinawa battle was different from the island battles like Tarawa. Pellieu, Guan, or Saipan. There were certainly many fanatics on Okinawa, and the general resistance was longer and more fanatical than the general German behavior, or even the SS & nazi fanatics. But, the Okinawan battle indicates at least a few assumptions about Japanese fanaticism, discipline, loyalty to the Emperor were not what the pop history cliches suggest.
Yeah. Japanese people as a whole aren't, like, I'm thinking Emperor worshiping automaton fanatics. They're just as human as everyone else. Stop buying into orientalist myths.

The vast bulk of the Japanese populous aren't going to fanatically continue the war if it means their families or themselves are going to die a horrible death of starvation or, bombings, and general catastrophic societal breakdown.
 
Yeah. Japanese people as a whole aren't, like, I'm thinking Emperor worshiping automaton fanatics. They're just as human as everyone else. Stop buying into orientalist myths.

The vast bulk of the Japanese populous aren't going to fanatically continue the war if it means their families or themselves are going to die a horrible death of starvation or, bombings, and general catastrophic societal breakdown.
Maybe that should have happened? A full fledge revolution?
 
Maybe that should have happened? A full fledge revolution?
Despite Japan being able to develop a large post war left the institutions that articulate mass working class action to the state domain and the working class networks required to articulate mass action within the working class itself did not effectively exist in 1945.

The Japanese state was effective and hegemonised white reaction and torydom as what I would call fascism. You don’t have a revolution when you’re in power.

Japanese liberal bourgeois were entirely ineffective.

So state collapse under blockade would be required for a messy revolution.
 
Let me see if I can paraphrase this..
Sarcasm mode engaged…
”The US,GB and their Allie’s were big bad bullies that insisted on kicking poor helpless Japan by Bombing them and threatening to invade. And if they had only been nicer and given poor little Japan a chance it would have seen the error of its ways and ended the war without this Nasty Wasty nukes or an invasion “
Does that more or less sum it up?
Sarcasm mode ended…

And exactly what makes you believe that Japan would surrender on its own if just left alone? Other then wishful thinking and revisionist history?

Part of the Japanese military didn’t want to surrender in the OTL after firebombings (that could be worse then the Nukes) and with the Two nukes and with the blockade and with the destruction up to that point of the Navy and the elimination of most of Japans army.
But somehow Japan was going to magically have a change of heart, realizing it had just been ”wrong” and surrender.
You do realize that unlike Germany Much of Japan STILL does not teach or otherwise get that what it did in WW2 was wrong.
And Japan Sure planned on fighting through any invasion its preparations for being invaded are well documented. So if they in part wanted to fight on after the Nukes and had big plans to fight on after the Invasion and had fought on after the war had OBVIOUSLY turn against them just what in Sams Hill would lead yof to believe that leaving the alone would get them to surrender?

This is yet again another of these posts we get here about every other month or so that seams to have as it’s sole and only point to try and “prove” that the US was actually the evil bad guy in WW2 because it hurt poor little Japan. And it used those nasty waste nuclear weapons.

Frankly this entire topic and all its older relatives with more or less the same point is ridiculous in the extreme and sorry if I sound harsh but this constant rehashing of this frankly stupid concept is getting old. It is also insulting to all those that fought in the war and suffered so horribly to secure the victory.
It is past time that we create for this concept the equivalent of the Infamous Sea Mammal treatment. One spot we can send all of the people with this idea to.

Now for some general observations
1) Unconditional Surrender: This was extremely common in war for as long as it has existed. Genghis Khan insisted upon it. The Alliance t hat took out Nepoleon insisted upon it, And we get it in wars from the US Civil war yo WW1 (yes it started out like it would be negotiated but the West dictated 100% of the terms) If you TRULY win a war it comes with unconditional surrender. Conditions only happen if one side is tireed if fighting but the other side can’t really beat them such as the Russia/Japanese war in which Japan won all the battles that counted but could never invade Russia and force it to unconditional surrender. Or is both sides have just had enough and want to go home. Or Alternatively you can have one side offer some terms to get an early surrender. Usually these terms are more face saving then anything.

2) The Nuclear Bombs: these have way way way too much propaganda behind them. And they were in no way shape or form the nasty easty terrible realky bad and scary bombs that many (most?) seam to think they were. They did not make Japan uninhabitable nor did they do more destruction or kill more people then the US (And Great Britain for that matter) could do if the wanted. And in fact it can easily be pointed out that the Firebombing of Tokyo was worse and that even in Europe with its more resilient construction the firebombing of cities such as Hamburg demonstrated that you don’t need a nuclear weapon to destroy as city and or kill tens if not hundreds of thousands of people. If you have a big enough fleet of bombers and more of less control the airspace
What the Nuclear Bombs DID DO was demonstrate that the US could do with one Aircraft and one bomb what used to take hundreds if not thousands of bombers to do.
The significance of this is to Japan in WW2 was that Japan was hoping for EXACTLY what the OP is suggesting. That the US would more of less decide that invading Japan would be too deadly And that maintaining a long term blockade and bombing campaign would be too costly and that the US would just get tiered of the war and go home to there nice homes and their families. Because despite everything that had happened during the war Japan still thought the US was soft and would not pay the price to achieve total victory. And the OPs suggestion would play into that completely tgus Japan would NEVER surrender.
But with the Atomic Bombs it was definitively demonstrated that the US didn’t need to keep thousands of bombers and hundreds of thousands of men on hand to keep destroying Japan they could just send one Bomber a week and destroy one city or military base per aircraft and this was easily maintained. So any chance that Japan could cause so many US deaths be fighting off an invasion was gone and Japan realized it. So at that point they knew they could never inflict enough death on the US for them to give up as Japan would never be allowed to get close enough to the US to truly harm them again as the US would simply stand back and nuke them into the Stone Age.

3) Historical Revisionism and the Bad reputation of the “BOMB”. Between books writen by folks that have a vested interest in making Japan look better or the US look worse and the propaganda machine that has had 70 years to try and make nuclear weapons look bad we have an amazing amount of folks today that both underestimate how bad Japan was, how stubborn parts of the Japanese Military and Government was and at the same time make the Atomic Bombs look like the evilest weapons ever devised and that only truly evil governments would own them much less ever USE them. When in reality the Atomic weapons used in WW2 were not all that much more cat then a 1000 bomber raid. Yes they had radiation and fall out issues but even these are greatly exaggerated. Don’t get me wrong they are powerful weapons that hopefully will never be used again, But the destruction of other cities both inJapan and in Germany demonstrates that they were not THAT much worse then what could be done conventionally.

4) Total war vs Modern war. Another point that I think is often lost today is that modern warfare is not the same as WW2 was. Starting with Korea and all the way up through the Current mess in most wars we have had one side which was in no way threatened by the other side. For example Korea, Vietnam, Desert Storm etc the US could lose the war but it would mot Effect the US itself. Same thing with Say the Falklands and GB or Afghanistan and the USSR. So these were all limited conflicts, So these wars could “aford” to be more limited in the weapons used and how they were used and as the technology allowed for more accuracy it was possible to chose one or two buildings in a city to be targeted where as in WW2 you were doing good if you could hit a give section of a city. So our wars have became much ”cleaner” and less generally destructive as the years have gone by. (Yes war is still horrible, but in general the horror is more conf than in the past.
As for true wars of survival where the losing sides both stood a good chance of having there existence ended or at least radically changed they have been between smaller countries with less ability to field massive armies and Airforce and such as the great powers of WW2 could. So while horribly destructive they too were on a much reduced scale the WW2.
So it is wrong to try and judge the war WW2 (or any other war from long ago) by the standards we use today.

As for OPs original suggestion. Not only is it ASB levels of impossible to get the US to do it which is why he makes no attempt whatsoever to explain how it happened, but is it also a tru stupid idea from the point of view of the US and it’s Allies. As it would play right into the hands of the Japanese in that it would indicate (rightly or not) to Japan that the US and the Allies were weak willed and would not be willing yo pay the cost to see the war to its final conclusion and as a result of this Japan would fight on. As such the assumption that Japan would surrender on anything close to terms that the US or anyone else would accept is flat wrong. As noted elsewhere even with everything that happened a faction of the Japanese government/military didn’t want yo surrender so going easy on them sure is not going yo get them to give up.
At “best” Japan would try for a cease-fire and a peace along the lines of.. you go home and we go back to pre WW2 positions . Thus making the Pacific war pointless from the point of view of the Allie’s.

So the OPs suggestion is both ASB and frankly about the Dumbest thing the US could do. The US and its Allie’s had the equipment, the technology and the manpower in place and the strategic positioning to end the war and they did so. Slowing. Down and holding off would have ultimately destroyed that and probably gave Japan the advantage to force a tie. As even the US in WW2 was not in a position that it could afford economically nor politicly to sustain its forces at this level indefinitely. Its men (and women) had fought hard and paid dearly to get to the point that they could with just a bit more effort, force Japan to surrender. And you want them to give up on that? And let Japan negotiate its way out of the very mess that Japan created not with one dumb idea to attack one country but by a serious of attacks on MULTIPLE countries that did nothing to Japan but stand in there way ranging from China to the US to France GB and Australia to name but a few.
Japan had spent decades on this course of action deliberately attacking others. This goes in part as far back as it’s war vs Russia. And while its military and its government had gotten worse over the years this was nothing new to Japan. It didn’t just wake up one morning in 1941 and say.. “hay I have an idea let’s attack the US AND GB and all their allies“. This was decades of bad decision, and the belief that only Japan was strong enough. And everyone else was too weak willed to resist them. Reinf by the simple fact that no one Had resisted them. Jest as the argument that France and GB giving in to Hitler early on created the monster that we ended up with Japan constantly get away with its various aggressions spawned its actions in December of 1941.
And as an added bonus. If you want a racist government then you have no farther to look than Japan in WW2. While the US GB and the rest were by no means good about this back then. Japan made them all look good. Its very war policy was predicated on the Superiority of the Japanese People over EVERYONE ELSE in the world and they knew they could not truly win the war by sheer military force or economic power but that the rest of the world would simply not stand up to the cost it would take to beat Japan. It was sheer arrogance and racism that made Japan believe that it would win against multiple stronger opponents all at the same time simply because the Japanese People were that much better then everyone else.

So hopefully this thread will stick a stake through the heart of this topic once and for all. Because the constant repeats of this basic concept is getting out of control.
Thank you! This had to be said.
 
The amount of posts we have been getting which in a nutshell try and reinterpret WW2 as the US being not really the good guy or in many cases one of the bad guys has gotten a bit much.
And the reinvention of the ending of the Pacific war has almost gotten to the great sea mammal level.
 
Despite Japan being able to develop a large post war left the institutions that articulate mass working class action to the state domain and the working class networks required to articulate mass action within the working class itself did not effectively exist in 1945.

The Japanese state was effective and hegemonised white reaction and torydom as what I would call fascism. You don’t have a revolution when you’re in power.

Japanese liberal bourgeois were entirely ineffective.

So state collapse under blockade would be required for a messy revolution.

Effectively that occurred post surrender. Contemporary accounts describe a temporary breakdown of social mores 1945-1950. In his biography the founder of Honda Corp. described this circa 1946-1949. Equilibrium was reestablished, and overt militarism was gone.
 
The amount of posts we have been getting which in a nutshell try and reinterpret WW2 as the US being not really the good guy or in many cases one of the bad guys has gotten a bit much.
And the reinvention of the ending of the Pacific war has almost gotten to the great sea mammal level.
We don't. Is just people thinking Japan would surrender as otl without the bomb..even with those it was a close call,if anything we're calling otl Japan revisionist BS
 

Freshift

Banned
Take a look at the peace proposal the Japanese government sent to the US embassy in Switzerland early summer 1945. Labeling it surrender conditions stretches the term past its breaking point. The core point was Japan gave up nothing militarily. Zero demobilization of its armed forces or post war restriction on expansion. Second this 'peace' did not extend to China. Any armistice of peace negotiations with the KMT government were entirely separate. The only major concession was the evacuation of the Japanese military from the former European colonies & Philippines. Other wise Japan got to keep its pre 1941 empire, and its occupied territories in China.

Now they may have conceded some details to get to a final peace settlement, but it looks clear they were aiming for something close to a 'white peace' where they lose nothing from the core empire or from their future ability to make war.

The Japanese government was not in any capacity in anyway to present such an outline, for there was no decision within itself over which terms to offer, and thus there was no Japanese agent in Switzerland in any official capacity to present such an outline

The only attempt in formal and official capacity was conducted in Soviet Union
 
The Japanese government was not in any capacity in anyway to present such an outline, for there was no decision within itself over which terms to offer, and thus there was no Japanese agent in Switzerland in any official capacity to present such an outline

The only attempt in formal and official capacity was conducted in Soviet Union

Butow in 'Japans Decision to Surrender' in Chapter Five outlines this diplomatic event. Communication was via the Japanese & US embassies in Switzerland. Butow mostly describes the persons and communications and decisions. He does not delve much into the substance of the proposal. Post war Tojo claimed he was unaware of these "negotiations" until it was too late to take advantage of them. This implies he was unaware of four months of messages on the subject between assorted cabinet secretaries and undersecretaries and the responsible staff in Switzerland. Which connected to war policy discussions of the Cabinet principles since April. My personal opinion is this was a typical buercratic dodge where you claim you knew nothing about a action that failed. It was all the subordinates fault. Costello 'The pacific War 1941 - 1945 has a outline of both sets of proposals, to the US and to the USSR. From both Butow and Costello it looks like the early initiative via Switzerland served as a template for the proposal to the USSR.
 

Freshift

Banned
Butow in 'Japans Decision to Surrender' in Chapter Five outlines this diplomatic event. Communication was via the Japanese & US embassies in Switzerland. Butow mostly describes the persons and communications and decisions. He does not delve much into the substance of the proposal. Post war Tojo claimed he was unaware of these "negotiations" until it was too late to take advantage of them. This implies he was unaware of four months of messages on the subject between assorted cabinet secretaries and undersecretaries and the responsible staff in Switzerland. Which connected to war policy discussions of the Cabinet principles since April. My personal opinion is this was a typical buercratic dodge where you claim you knew nothing about a action that failed. It was all the subordinates fault. Costello 'The pacific War 1941 - 1945 has a outline of both sets of proposals, to the US and to the USSR. From both Butow and Costello it looks like the early initiative via Switzerland served as a template for the proposal to the USSR.

There were three different Japanese individual in Switzerland each belonging to three different government agencies, that being Army, Navy, and Foreign Ministry, desperately reaching out to communicate and negotiate with the Western Allies in three separate cases, none of them were in official capacity to negotiate anything. Those people with pipedreams always exist, and to my knowledge Western historians don't call Himmler's offer to sue for peace an official proposal. Although in Japan's case it's mixed with the good old pre-war Japanese working modus operandi, that is, initiating operation without waiting for instruction from his superiors in Tōkyō let alone seeking for their consultation beforehand

The matter of fact is that Tōkyō was not interested in talking through Switzerland, at all, from the beginning to the end; all its attention was paid to Moscow and Stalin, and the few people who advocated to work with the Western Allies rather than Soviet Union were arrested and removed of influence in the Yoshida Anti-War Group case
 
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