How "should" WWII in 1940 have gone?

The fall of france might have been inevitable , but the fall of Norway could have been prevented.
Norway under Allied control would screw the Germans big time. Sweden might cut off iron shipments to Germany, but far more important the Baltic Coast would be in range of medium bombers.
German ship yards would be under constant attack. U-Boat production would suffer and the Bismarck and Tirpitz might never be completed.
If they were, they would be swarmed with torpedo bombers in the Baltic.
It would also open another front for the overstretched Luftwaffe
 
Did I say that? Quote me.

I never said you did, I was asking 'if you did' thus the question mark at the end of the sentence.

If not stating 'cowardice' then what are you stating in your previous statement that said

... but they did have an air force, jsut unwilling to commit it to the fight when it mattered the most.

Same applies for the BA and the RN then... doesnt it? Why would anyone want you for an ally if you dont commit to the fight?

You don't need to commit 100% of your army, navy or af to commit to 100% to a battle or campaign.

No country that is at war does that.

Even the USSR didn't commit 100% of it's total forces against the Axis in Europe keeping a high as 28/30% in the East.

Did the USA take all it's forces out of Europe when fighting in Indo-China?
Did the UK take all of it's forces out of the UK and Germany in 1982 against Argentina?
Did Italy remove all of it's forces from it's homeland to fight the British in North Africa?
 
They should have committed most of the RAF to defending France, that is where the decisive battle was to be fought, as it was, the LW suffered 30% losses, imagine if they were opposed by a larger force.

1) Thus the UK (aka the Unsinkable Carrier) goes up the road with it's arse on fire then as there will be no Second Front at Normandy as you've just gutted the entire RAF defensive screen leaving the UK open to invasion!

. . . .and the Germans laughing their arses off!

Would you expect the French to do likewise if the roles were reversed?, of course not.

2) How do you know if the LW would suffer the same 30% losses if more RAF assets were moved to France?

I refer back to an earlier post

3)With the German advance, the quickest way to really fuck up an oppositions air force is to over run that air forces airfields. The said sqn(s) at those airfields then have to withdraw and land at a predetermined point

. . . then wait until the ground support and staff to turn up which either takes the best part of a day or never as it's either stuck in traffic from all the refugees and Army units retreating and what not or thus gets attacked or straffed on said roads
.

So again how do you avoid the airfields getting over run?
 
I seem to recall you made the calculation, could you provide a link?


I don't believe that the Brits were stupid, the Germans were morons and the French were all half wits as many of your posts imply. Winning a war isn't as easy as you appear to think. Obviously there were mistakes but the only people who don't make mistakes are those who don't do anything apart from sit on the couch yelling at the TV about how if they had been on the field, they'd have scored eight goals by now and be holding the world cup.
 
I never said you did, I was asking 'if you did' thus the question mark at the end of the sentence.

If not stating 'cowardice' then what are you stating in your previous statement that said

... but they did have an air force, jsut unwilling to commit it to the fight when it mattered the most.

I am saying what they actually did, that simple.

You don't need to commit 100% of your army, navy or af to commit to 100% to a battle or campaign.

No country that is at war does that.

Even the USSR didn't commit 100% of it's total forces against the Axis in Europe keeping a high as 28/30% in the East.

Did I claim they had to send 100%?

Did the USA take all it's forces out of Europe when fighting in Indo-China?
Did the UK take all of it's forces out of the UK and Germany in 1982 against Argentina?
Did Italy remove all of it's forces from it's homeland to fight the British in North Africa?

You mean Vietnam?

So, you are claiming that the UK didnt send more of the RAF because the LW really wasnt a threat? Didnt warrant it?

1) Thus the UK (aka the Unsinkable Carrier) goes up the road with it's arse on fire then as there will be no Second Front at Normandy as you've just gutted the entire RAF defensive screen leaving the UK open to invasion!

. . . .and the Germans laughing their arses off!

Would you expect the French to do likewise if the roles were reversed?, of course not.

Ok... so... your position is, the RAF is defeated at the BoB, the Germans can pull the USM? Really???

2) How do you know if the LW would suffer the same 30% losses if more RAF assets were moved to France?

I refer back to an earlier post

3)With the German advance, the quickest way to really fuck up an oppositions air force is to over run that air forces airfields. The said sqn(s) at those airfields then have to withdraw and land at a predetermined point

. . . then wait until the ground support and staff to turn up which either takes the best part of a day or never as it's either stuck in traffic from all the refugees and Army units retreating and what not or thus gets attacked or straffed on said roads
.

So again how do you avoid the airfields getting over run?

By bombing the horrific traffic jam that was the German supply line in the Ardennes, the outnumbered wally air forces were swept off by the LW, what do you think would happen once those narrow, twisting mountain roads start to get blocked by hundreds of vehicles on fire?
 

I don't believe that the Brits were stupid, the Germans were morons and the French were all half wits as many of your posts imply. Winning a war isn't as easy as you appear to think. Obviously there were mistakes but the only people who don't make mistakes are those who don't do anything apart from sit on the couch yelling at the TV about how if they had been on the field, they'd have scored eight goals by now and be holding the world cup.

yeah, I never said anything or implied anything of the sort.
 
yeah, I never said anything or implied anything of the sort.

Hang on, here's what you said;

* the Germans had a "very, very stupid plan".

* the French had "bad French doctrine".

* the RN's actions were shameful.

* the RAF's actions were wrong.

So you have thrown very heavy criticism at just about everyone involved. If they weren't stupid then why do you think they did things like make stupid plans and act in shameful ways? Yes, I know you let the Germans off the hook because they had no alternative but you do not seem to have objectively considered the issues others faced.

It is very, very easy to just thrown insults at those who were there when using the luxury of hindsight and when you don't have to deal with reality or the consequences that would have occurred had your alternatives been taken up at the time. Given the accepted wisdom about the efficacy of bombers, for example, one can easily see why the British wanted to leave the UK well defended against potential attacks by the LW.

As has been pointed out here, not even many in the Heer expected the German plan to succeed. Once it did, people were stunned. Even if it was objectively better to have put more of the RAF into France - and given the ideas and experience of the time that may well have seemed like the only way to see the UK defeated - then it still had to be seen to be practically possible given morale issues, political issues, the availability of landing grounds, the availability of transport to move ground crew, the availability of fuel and fuel tankers, the availability of forward control, the availability of RDF, etc etc etc etc.

As the cliche goes, amateurs talk tactics and generals talk logistics. To make your case properly will require you to show that it was logistically possible, even before looking into the other ramifications.

Even the French, by the way, left Ms 406s in North Africa instead of throwing them into metropolitian France.
 
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I am saying what they actually did, that simple.

Feel free to define "unwilling to commit"?

It looks like you're conflating 'unwilling' with 'tactical necessity'

Did I claim they had to send 100%?

No, and you know full well that I didn't state that.

In that case tell me how much more of the RAF assets should've been moved to France?

You mean Vietnam?

Indo-China encompasses Cambodia, Laos and Vietman . . . . you know the area, the US had forces there legally and illegally!

So, you are claiming that the UK didnt send more of the RAF because the LW really wasnt a threat? Didnt warrant it?

Were did I state that?, feel free to post my quote.

Ok... so... your position is, the RAF is defeated at the BoB, the Germans can pull the USM? Really???

Well considering gaining air superiority and thus air supremacy over Southern England was a must before any German landings could take place . . . yes!

And you don't think gutting the 50 or so Sqn's that comprise this defense would do this?

By bombing the horrific traffic jam that was the German supply line in the Ardennes, the outnumbered wally air forces were swept off by the LW, what do you think would happen once those narrow, twisting mountain roads start to get blocked by hundreds of vehicles on fire?

You mean this?

The German advance was hampered by the number of vehicles trying to force their way along the poor road network. Panzergruppe Kleist had more than 41,140 vehicles, which had only four march routes through the Ardennes. French reconnaissance aircrews had reported German armoured convoys by the night of 10/11 May but this was assumed to be secondary to the main attack in Belgium. On the next night, a reconnaissance pilot reported that he had seen long vehicle columns moving without lights; another pilot sent to check reported the same and that many of the vehicles were tanks. Later that day, photographic reconnaissance and pilot reports were of tanks and bridging equipment. On 13 May, Panzergruppe Kleist caused a traffic jam about 250 km (160 mi) long from the Meuse to the Rhine on one route. While the German columns were sitting targets, the French bomber force attacked the Germans in northern Belgium during the Battle of Maastricht and had failed with heavy losses. In two days, the bomber force had been reduced from 135 to 72.

So you're now blaming a lack of intel /failure to act on intel on the the German column on the RAF's lack of aircraft in France? So how do you guarantee that still doesn't happen with an increase in RAF aircraft?
 
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My understanding was that the RAF sortied from the UK over Northern France and the Low Countries. Also, some squadrons flew to France each day operating at Feench airfields and using French Avgas before flying home for essential maintenance in the evenings. This allowed the RAF to fight over France without the usual logistical support having its units based in France would require. Also, thanks to the unit rotation, which was such an important feature of th BoB. This system meant that the majority of Fighter Command squadrons obtauned some combat experience before the BoB. I therefore feel that some of the comments above do a dissercice to the RAF in this instance. But greater air power alone (without a major mid-1930's POD) isn't going to change the BoF.

Having read the above posts with interest. For France to lose would require:

Better use of French industry pre-war to produce better tanks and planes. Not in itself a silver bullet, but it wouldn't hurt

Changes to French policy and military leadership.

Improvements to French communications.

A change of French strategic objectives (no charging off into Belgium)

Issuing chainsaws to the French Cavalry units in the Ardennes 😉

In all, I feel that the fall wasn't preordained. Some pretty simple changes would have resulted in a very different WW2, which would likely have been less bloody and shorter than OTL. Which could only be good for the post war world.
 
The action of the First Army in the Gembloux gap showed what properly trained and prepared French infantry divisions could do against armored formations. Had similar soldiers been at Sedan, or Dinant, Guderian and Rommel would have had a far tougher time of it.
Haven't the French disproportionally suffered at Gembloux, in terms of casualties?
 
Another option (although it works best in conjunction with what's above) is for Gamlin to actually concentrate a strategic reserve. IOTL each French Army and Army Group had some reserve formations so this not only is potentially doable, it has always completely mystified me why it wasn't done in OTL. If a strategic reserve was available it could at best have closed the gap in the line created by the Panzer Divisions or at worst slowed down the German advance to allow the forces in the North to move south and avoid being cut off. If this had happened OTL then although I think the Germans would have won (lots of good arguements made for this up thread), a better performance in the first stage of the Battle of France would have made a retreat to North Africa more likely as the position France found itself would not have appeared so helpless.
Having a reserve is basically the POD of @pdf27 's TL The Blunted Sickle, where the Germans capture Paris (but don't create a Dunkirk pocket), they get cut off and from there it goes downhill for the Germans and they lose in 1942.
 
In truth, France shouldve halted the Germans before they reached Paris. The Ardennes offensive was a stroke of genius and it's successful enaction was an illustration of Germans excellent ability to execute tactically. That being said France has the strategic advantage by far. All they had to do was not be flanked and it's WW1 all over again
 
If a plan works, it's not stupid. Fact of the matter is it was Germany's best shot at winning the war in a single campaign, given what the Germans knew at the time. It was actually a good plan, chosen in no small part because of German awareness of the French military's ponderous command and control. The German General Staff looked at the evidence, and came up with a winning strategy, while the French did not. Riskiness does not a bad plan make. The best commanders are those that can navigate the marshes of risk and dodge the consequences. There's a reason Napoleon said he'd rather have a lucky general than a skilled one. If someone keeps rolling sixes, it's because they have something to do with it. It's really tiring how armchair generals upon seeing any element of risk will immediately issue condemnation for "stupidity," as if war is not an inherently risky activity.
Didn't most of the general staff oppose the Manstein plan, and it was only after he miraculously got it onto Hitler's desk that it was forced down the throats of OKW?
 
Didn't most of the general staff oppose the Manstein plan, and it was only after he miraculously got it onto Hitler's desk that it was forced down the throats of OKW?
I think Manstein gets a lot of credit for coming up with a plan for attacking France by one of only 4 possible options: via Belgium, the Ardennes, through the Maginot Line of via Switzerland Once through Belgium is considered a no go, what other realistic option is there?

Most people would credit Gamlin as a poor general (being very kind there!) Yet aledgidly he considered going through the Ardennes as a way of attacking Germany. Certainly, the Ardennes offensive wasn't as big a surprise as is commonly suggested. The French were expecting a secondary attack through the sector. Even correctly estimating the time it would take for the Germans to get to the Meuse. What they got wrong was that the German's would be able to cross the river on the bounce and continue to advance, instead of waiting for the infantry and heavy artillery to arrive before carrying out a WW1 style set peice battle. It's also worth noting that this was an opinion that was shared by the majority of the German General Staff!
 
Didn't most of the general staff oppose the Manstein plan, and it was only after he miraculously got it onto Hitler's desk that it was forced down the throats of OKW?
They initially opposed it, but while wargaming it out they increasingly shifted the Schwerpunkt further south, eventually concluding that Sedan indeed was the best option. Funnily enough, Hitler had in passing suggested something like the Manstein plan in September or October 1939.
 
The British had financial issues restricting their armed forces, as did every other country. Where will the money come from for a larger ground army (without using hindsight and demanding an inhuman level of perfection in decisions) and if it comes from debt, what will the British NOT buy later in the war when their reserves of foreign currency run out earlier than ITL?

Later in the war, British can opt not to make/buy hundreds of Bothas and Defiants, last hundreds of Battles and Blenheims, Hundreds of tanks deemed not suitable for combat service (Centaur, Cavalier, Covenanter) can also not be made/bought.

We know why the Spit, in any case, didn't have greater fuel tankage. It was a case of either having four fewer guns or having bigger tanks. What decisions could have created more design staff, given that the RAF had already been spreading its purchases between firms in order to preserve as much design and build capacity as possible?

Oh, it was not the case of either bigger thanks or fewer guns.
Spitfire's fuselage - that had no guns installed ever - was of generous size, that enabled eg. Spitfire III prototypes (that started the life as parts for Spitfire I) to be with 99 imp gal fuel tanks. Or that Spitfire V was ferrying in 1942 with an additional 29 imp gal tank behind the pilot, or that Spitfire IXs were eventually (if too late) available with 66-70 imp gal tanks behind the pilot.
The drop tank installation also had nothing to do with number of guns. If we want to put fuel tanks in the wings, the Spitfire VII and VIII were with total of 25 imp gals there, again the number of guns took no hit.

The thing that precluded the LR Spitfire happen was then-current doctrine at RAF.
 
Having read the above posts with interest. For France to lose would require:

Better use of French industry pre-war to produce better tanks and planes. Not in itself a silver bullet, but it wouldn't hurt

Changes to French policy and military leadership.

Improvements to French communications.

A change of French strategic objectives (no charging off into Belgium)

Issuing chainsaws to the French Cavalry units in the Ardennes 😉

In all, I feel that the fall wasn't preordained. Some pretty simple changes would have resulted in a very different WW2, which would likely have been less bloody and shorter than OTL. Which could only be good for the post war world.
Honestly a lot of French problems were linked to confused policies. Diplomatically the French sought a coalition of allies, the UK , central and eastern Europe. Militarily the policy was a long defensive war, starving out the Germans which was inherently contradictory to the diplomatic need to be aggressive and prevent Germany from overrunning it's weaker neighbors.

A France that won't commit to the defense of its smaller neighbors isn't a good ally, especially one that mobilized later than the Nazis but that was understandable.
 
Haven't the French disproportionally suffered at Gembloux, in terms of casualties?

I don't have any references with useful number for that. The Gembloux gap battle is separate from the action a few days earlier, that is sometimes referred to as the Merdorp battle. That battle involve Piroxs "Cavalry Corps". @ Gembloux a French corps of two infantry divisions occupied the center of the 1st Armies line, anchored on Namur on the right and the BEF on the left. The terrain is elevated dry ground. Gently rolling with some extended flat areas. Small streams bisect it. There was very little forest, but some orchards. A railway running slightly NW from Namur followed the general trace of the 1st Army defense zone.

The Corps was not deployed linearly as some folks think of French defense tactics, that is not a line of trenches with battalions strung on them like tiny beads, Rather it was a zone of mutually supporting company/platoon strong points, spotted with the light AT guns & mortars. This zone had three echelons. The forward started with a screen of outposts of mobile patrols from the division/corps reconnoissance elements. Behind those were some platoon strongpoints set in defendable terrain and covering the high speed routes. In this case in the small villages, or farm clusters, and orchards where they could fire on anyone trying to use the roads. The purpose of this echelon was to identify the direction of the enemy advance and cause them to deploy from march or maneuver formations to slower assault or probing formations.

The second echelon of main defense zone was a thicker web oaf interlaced MG, AT, Mortar positions. A portion, perhaps a 12 gun battalion or Groupe of 75mm guns would be deployed in this zone, positioned to cover the AT guns and MG with relatively short ranged. (1000m - 2000 meters) HE fires. Any infantry or assault artillery threatening the AT guns could be rapidly engaged by raffles of 75mm fire from pairs or batteries of the artillery in this echelon

The third zone had the 'final stop line' of strong points the reserve infantry would occupy, or be able to reply into. Also any units retreating from the main defense zone were to fall in on the prepared positions in the third zone. This zone included part of the field artillery battery/groupe positions. From there the division artillery group brought down massed Groups and Groupment fires ins support of the strong points of the forward and main defense zones.

The 3rd and 4th Panzer Divisions attacked this corps front. Their orders were as before since the 10th May to engage the 1st Army to prevent it from easily maneuvering, split it, penetrating deep into its rear area, and disrupt it. After a few last skirmishes with the rear guard of Pirouxs Cavalry Corps the Panzer Corps probed the French defense, then mounted a determined two day attack to penetrate and split. MG and artillery fires repeatedly drove the German motor rifle companies to ground. That left the tanks fighting well entrenched AT guns and hammered by concentrations of artillery fires. Some of the German battle groups penetrated into the main defense zone, then withdrew on the second day. While the Cavalry Corps had passed into 1st Army reserve & was in position to intervene it did not. The independent tank battalion attached to the corps did participate in the fighting in the main zone. Another battalion may have done so briefly.

While the terrain was wholly unfavorable for a infantry corps fighting a armored corps the French had had time to entrench throughly, and were comprised of well trained and disciplined regiments. German witness referred to masses of artillery fires that rapidly followed every effort to maneuver. its not clear what mines the French had been able to deploy. Neither are there useful indications of how much air support the Germans or French had or when it was present.

At some point it was realized continuing the attack was pointless. To the south Kliests Panzer Group had broken out and was already exploiting deep into the French 2d Army. The 3rd & 4th Pz Div were ordered to disengage and redeploy south to support Kliests group.
 
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Later in the war, British can opt not to make/buy hundreds of Bothas and Defiants, last hundreds of Battles and Blenheims, Hundreds of tanks deemed not suitable for combat service (Centaur, Cavalier, Covenanter) can also not be made/bought.



Oh, it was not the case of either bigger thanks or fewer guns.
Spitfire's fuselage - that had no guns installed ever - was of generous size, that enabled eg. Spitfire III prototypes (that started the life as parts for Spitfire I) to be with 99 imp gal fuel tanks. Or that Spitfire V was ferrying in 1942 with an additional 29 imp gal tank behind the pilot, or that Spitfire IXs were eventually (if too late) available with 66-70 imp gal tanks behind the pilot.
The drop tank installation also had nothing to do with number of guns. If we want to put fuel tanks in the wings, the Spitfire VII and VIII were with total of 25 imp gals there, again the number of guns took no hit.

The thing that precluded the LR Spitfire happen was then-current doctrine at RAF.
Which up to the end of the BoB included the need for high performance short range interceptors which didn't need longer range enough to justify the extra weight of fuel.
Of course, after the BoB, longer range would become more desirable.
 
Later in the war, British can opt not to make/buy hundreds of Bothas and Defiants, last hundreds of Battles and Blenheims, Hundreds of tanks deemed not suitable for combat service (Centaur, Cavalier, Covenanter) can also not be made/bought.


But;

1- that list of programmes to be abandoned appears to be largely born out of hindsight. We disagree on the Defiant (all the reading I have done indicates that it was a fairly reasonable mistaken idea and not the total insanity some say) but stopping production of Battles and Blenheims, for example, is not as easy as you appear to think - see Blaughen's book on the Battle, for example.

Bill Gunston notes that even the best design teams could make mistakes even when using a wing and engines they knew very well, as in the case of the Chadwick's team making errors with the airflow over the Avro Tudor. He also notes that aircraft design is "a funny business" - many middle-of-the-road machines ended up being disasters although conservative designs, while some leading-edge ones were great (and many were disasters). The unpredictable nature of design means that unless you duplicate your efforts you have a very good chance of having no useable new equipment.

One notable thing is how many design teams turned out both brilliant planes and dogs - look at Chadwick, Mitchell, Tank, Messerschmitt, Horikoshi , etc. Even Kurt Tank got criticism for the Murat's drag and Kelly Johnston's F-104 has a bad rep in many circles - and the US seems to have had about 20-40 times as many design staff for an individual project as a typical British manufacturer like Hawker had in total. If seeing that a design was going to be a dog was as easy as you imply then all the great designers would only have created successful aircraft, but that is not what happened.

To quote Gunston again, "thoughout most of aviation's history there seems to have a fairly narrow margin between brilliant success and abysmal failure". He notes that the Spitfire, for example, could easily have been rejected because of the complexity of its wing structure.

In hindsight, and if one ignores much of the actual detailed history and the notes of experts like Gunston, one can always pick the right aircraft to build and the right aircraft to reject - but if it is so easy to do without hindsight then why did no air force or design team in the world pick all winners and avoid all duds? The fact is that no air force or design team did so, so we are once again back to the equation that either everyone running every air force and every design team was a moron, or picking only winners is harder than some people think.

2- Even if the magic hindsight wand is waved and all the projects you want to cancel are dropped, how do the numbers stack up. For example, what do you use for training instead of Battles. and once these replacement trainers are provided how much is actually saved?

3- What are the actual amounts that you claim could have been saved in total and how much would the extra ground forces have cost?

Of course, this is not a simple cash transaction. With an early war divisional slice of 24,000 men, an extra four divisions is probably taking roughly 100,000 prime working age men out of the workforce where they can pay tax and earn export dollars (still a major issue throughout the war). So there's significant further costs to be added to the "simple" one of finding 100000 men, training them, housing them, feeding them, giving them weapons and taking them to the right place.

4- What are these men going to be armed with? The British army was short of guns, tanks, artillery, etc etc etc. Where do the extra weapons come from and when do they arrived, get tested, and receive trained crews?

5- What happens if there is no Lend Lease and you have been throwing so much extra money around so early? Even if the hindsight wand gets rid projects deemed worthless then the UK's money will run out quickly. If the UK has put more money into ground forces early on, what happens in say late '43?

Oh, it was not the case of either bigger thanks or fewer guns.
Spitfire's fuselage - that had no guns installed ever - was of generous size, that enabled eg. Spitfire III prototypes (that started the life as parts for Spitfire I) to be with 99 imp gal fuel tanks. Or that Spitfire V was ferrying in 1942 with an additional 29 imp gal tank behind the pilot, or that Spitfire IXs were eventually (if too late) available with 66-70 imp gal tanks behind the pilot.
The drop tank installation also had nothing to do with number of guns. If we want to put fuel tanks in the wings, the Spitfire VII and VIII were with total of 25 imp gals there, again the number of guns took no hit.

The thing that precluded the LR Spitfire happen was then-current doctrine at RAF.

That does not seem to be correct on the available facts.

The sequence seems to be pretty clear from Price and others;

1- After the Spit's basic design as an interim fighter is drawn up, the RAF draws up spec 37/44 for it calling for the designed four guns, a good armament for the time, and 94 gallons of fuel.

2- Sorely's arguments, and the general gun race, lead the RAF to spec F10/35, calling for preferably eight but at least six guns and reducing the tankage to 66 gallons, a deletion "which (Mitchell) welcomes" according to Sorely.

3- The Director of Technical Development noted in reply that he was NOT in favour of reducing the tankage. Dowding and Ellington agreed with the Director.

4- The revised spec therefore allowed for tankage to be reduced if necessary to fit the extra four guns. Mitchell "grasped at" the opportunity to reduce the size of the plane and therefore reduced the tankage.

5- It was therefore Mitchell, NOT the RAF, who made the decision to reduce the tankage. Surely to heaven you are not going to sit there, never (I presume) having designed an aircraft, never (I'm fairly sure) have flown a Spit, never (and I know this for a fact) having been in charge of the Supermarine design team and being as aware of the factors involved as Mitchell was, and say "Mitchell was a turkey, a muppet who created an inferior plane and a reasonable person without hindsight would have put the bigger tank in"?

What would the actual costs in performance have been? Do you have the slightest reason to believe that you can create a reasoned, evidence-based argument to say that the inevitable problems caused by the small tank should have been known AT THE TIME to be greater than the inevitable problems caused by making the Spitfire bigger?

6- As Quill and others say, the Spit was very sensitive to C of G changes and there were always problems getting enough design staff to dramatically increase the tankage. When the issue is known but resources are unavailable what can be done without hindsight? Quill also notes that the carriage of greater fuel in later marks was one of the factors that successively impaired the handling of the Spit.

The long range tanks used to get the Vs to Malta were removed when the aircraft got there. Either (1) those involved were morons or (2) those involved were there at the time, knew far more than you do about the situation, and did the right thing or (3) errrrrrr.....well, nothing else really. Take your choice but I don't think (1) is reasonable. When one reads time and time and time again from those who actually flew the plane - unlike you - that it handled poorly with the aft tanks full how on earth do you expect us to reject their expertise and experience?



Sorry, but surely you see it's reasonable for us to prefer the more detailed information from the people who were there and the authors of the major works on the aircraft?

7- Yes, it would have been good if the Spit had longer range. It was never intended to be anything more than an interim aircraft when it was designed and resources were scanty. Yes, the P-51 had better range but it also had drawbacks and was created years after the Spit, when designers had become very aware of high speed monoplane fighter design.

8- If the Brits were so bad then who was better in terms of designing a fighter at the time, and what range did it have? The 109 had the same issues and the Zero was later, had very long range and significant issues in combat.

9 - Perhaps the most important thing (and I think I've asked for it before with no response). If it was so easy to make all the right decisions then you should be able to provide us with a consistent, detailed and accurate set of guidelines that all new projects could be held to in order to ensure that no turkeys were made. So please, what are these guidelines?

If it's so easy to get it right then you should easily be able to show us how to do it, and not by using contradictory and inconsistent standards that are merely the application of hindsight.

Just saying "oh, we know in 2024 was X was crap so they should have known that in 1936, and we know in 2024 that Y was great so they should have known that in 1939" is not a logical or reasoned argument.
 
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