18th Century POD Dystopia

Beatriz

Gone Fishin'
Most dystopias have a 20th-century or maybe 19th century POD. Is it possible for a dystopia (not the Draka series) to have an 18th century POD and do it well given the long duration of the timeline and eventual global scope?

Also in terms of specific ideas is there anything interesting to suggest?

“We’ll Meet Again” by 037771 was an old timeline like this but has since been deleted.
 
Maybe a scenario where slavery is a lot more widespread and slaves are used more often in industries other than cotton and sugar farming meaning the slave population would be increased and slavery would be a much more prevelent part of peoples lives with ownership being more common, shop keepers to construction companies would be employing slave labour at high levels.
 
Not necessarily dystopic, but I have an 18th century idea that I've been fiddling with involving an Allied Victory at the Battle of Malplaquet in 1710, where they don't lose as many troops and French lose a whole lot more. Louis XIV is forced to accept the peace terms previously offered in 1709: the acceptance of the Austrian candidate as King of Spain, and even agreeing to provide troops to help eject his grandson from Spain. The idea is a more chaotic 18th century: Charles VI becomes King of Spain, but with an earlier War of the Austrian Succession stemming from Emperor Joseph's death in 1711-12 (perhaps he can live on a few years more, but has no male heir) while Charles VI will still fail to have a male heir, meaning possible conflicts regarding the Spanish Crown. For extra chaos, the Bourbons can still have several deaths in 1710-12 from smallpox which could decimate the line of succession. With Felipe V forced to return to France and reassume his title as Duke of Anjou, he'd certainly play a role in any regency if Louis XV still succeeds his grandfather.

Not sure if it'd be dystopic, but there would certainly be a lot more chaos, a lot more war, and a lot more suffering.
 
What about a Timeline where Louis XIV gets everything he wants, like the Spanish-Netherlands, some of the HRE, a Jacobite puppet on the English throne, and a Franco-Spanish is formed, and the French dominates half of Western Europe
 
What about a Timeline where Louis XIV gets everything he wants, like the Spanish-Netherlands, some of the HRE, a Jacobite puppet on the English throne, and a Franco-Spanish is formed, and the French dominates half of Western Europe

What would make this very bad?

But for me perhaps France remain radical republican and manage to spread its ideals through Europe and most of the continent is under complete terror governments which persecutes all of nobility, clergies and actually everybody whom they see being anti-revolutionariers. Europe would be in constant wars between these republics and more traditional states.

So in 1815 Europe would be even worsely ruined than in OTL and indsutrialisation would be delayed.
 
what would be considered a dystopia by XVIII century people?

I may be working under some stereotypical perception of the period here, but to me it seems that religious fanaticism was the favourite target of lay intellectuals in the period, w/ the inquisition, witch trials and the thirty years' war being great example of Very Big Bad™

so perhaps a dystopic XVIII century would be one w/ a much stronger Papacy trying to reassert its universal authority, promoting "crusades" against a protestant world fixated on bringing an end to Rome-Babylon through military means, w/ a resurgent Inquisition (and its counterparts in non-catholic countries) getting expanded to be widespread and weaponized by lay and religious authorities alike to fight any form of dissent

the consequences of the above are prbbly decades' long wars, famines and a few outbreaks of infectious diseases: trly an end-of-times kind of situation that could lead to outburst of millenarian themed mob violence
 
Supercharge colonialism.

Quinine anti-malarial properties get discovered and adopted en masse at the very beginning of the 18th century, around a century ahead of OTL, enabling the colonization of sub-Saharan Africa and Southeast Asia now that malaria is substantially less of an issue. Peru fails to lock down their cinchona seeds, so the Dutch manage to get their hands on some and began making quinine plantations in Indonesia, thus ensuring a solid global supply of antimalarials.

Trekboers stumble upon the Witwatersrand gold deposits (or the Kimberly diamonds), triggering a frenzy for the African El Dorado, with people chasing historical accounts of the Mutapa and Timbuktu.

Shenanigans involving the Holy Roman Empire result in Frederick the Great turning away from looking at sugar extraction research, delaying its introduction and increasing the demand for cane sugar and thus slave labor.

European powers invest in colonial endeavors instead of domestic development, slowing down industrialization. In addition, human capital flees from Europe in the hope of striking fortunes in Africa and/or fleeing persecution in Europe, draining that professional class key to industrialization.

Various polities in Asia and Africa also gain access to quinine, sparking a new era of large-scale jungle warfare and colonialism. The Qing make a more earnest push into northern Vietnam and exert stronger control over Taiwan, resulting in bloodier, sometimes genocidal campaigns.

When many newly claimed territories end up not containing mineral wealth, Europeans turn towards plantations, cultivating sugar and spices all across Africa fueled by massive slave plantations rivalling those of the Caribbean. The slave trade surges in size, and when combined with other factors, such as the introduction of productive but resource-intensive crops from the Columbia Exchange and the proliferation of modern weaponry, results in devastating warfare across Africa, like the Mfecane, but on steroids.

The economic prosperity of slavery is shortly followed by people looking for a moral justification for slavery, which when coinciding with the Enlightenment, results in the early formation of scientific racism. These two factors result in abolitionist societies being significantly weaker than OTL and abolition being substantially delayed.

The outlet valve of emigration to the colonies also reduces pressure for democratic reform in the metropole, so absolute monarchies remain much stronger and face less of a risk of revolution.

European great power conflicts, due to a larger colonial presence, draw in not only their colonies, but also native allies, resulting in large-scale wars that often last far longer in the colonies.

Global trade surges, but that also means a more interconnected world with many more disease vectors. The third bubonic plague wave hits earlier in the 19th century and expands farther and faster than its counterparts, and half a century earlier, meaning there's substantially less advancements in medicine, hygiene, and epidemiology to mitigate its effects. We get ~10% death rates worldwide.

Weaker imperial metropoles from Europe to East Africa to China that have spent way too much money in their colonies and conquests while industrializing less, face substantial unrest. The Qing collapse earlier, with various warlords and a Taiping-esque radicalized theocracy fighting a vicious civil war to become the new dynasty, while colonial revolutions break out across the world, often with polarized populations where there are equally large shares of loyalists, neutrals, and rebels. Some succeed, while others are brutally repressed, but many of these independent colonies end up continuing their overlord's colonialism, just under a new flag.

The HRE fractures during this time, but no hegemon emerges and the great powers are too preoccupied to jointly establish something like the German Confederation, resulting in a bunch of isolated city-states at the mercy of their larger neighbors. The HRE ends up being partitioned in various subsidiary client states and continues to be a national battleground repeatedly trodden over by great powers, despite undercurrents of pan-Germanism.

Also, malarial resistance to quinine develops, causing even more deaths in the tropical world around the same time the bubonic plague hits. Disease depopulation and protracted warfare result in entire regions collapsing, with the largest form of organization being a depopulated city-states, with some societies returning to tribal societies. When colonial overlords return, they do so with an iron grip that is much less lenient on their weakened subjects, enabled by industrialization finally occurring and allowing stronger power projection from the metropole.

So by the time the 20th century rolls around, the world is a depopulated, backwards, and unstable shadow of its OTL self.
 
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Jacobites won, England became an Adsolutist French Satellite, no American Revolution, no French Revolution, Absolute Monarchy stay mainstream polilical regime in XXI century (may be Slavery and Serfdom also survived)
 
Jacobites won, England became an Adsolutist French Satellite, no American Revolution, no French Revolution, Absolute Monarchy stay mainstream polilical regime in XXI century (may be Slavery and Serfdom also survived)

And yet keep wars as acceptable way to solve any diplomatic issues, no industrialisation and keep religious issues really bad. Perhaps even better if some pope decides declare new crusade against Ottomans and manage to get lot of Catholic nations. It is not completely succesful but still really bad thing for everyone.
 
Britain’s parliamentary system is strangled in its cradle by the Jacobites?
Britain's parliamentary system was practically a preschooler by that point (if we take a birthdate under Longshanks), and was, like most preschoolers, learning to talk and walk and what the rules were (and how to defy them). Not a newborn
 
Supercharge colonialism.

Quinine anti-malarial properties get discovered and adopted en masse at the very beginning of the 18th century, around a century ahead of OTL, enabling the colonization of sub-Saharan Africa and Southeast Asia now that malaria is substantially less of an issue. Peru fails to lock down their cinchona seeds, so the Dutch manage to get their hands on some and began making quinine plantations in Indonesia, thus ensuring a solid global supply of antimalarials.

Trekboers stumble upon the Witwatersrand gold deposits (or the Kimberly diamonds), triggering a frenzy for the African El Dorado, with people chasing historical accounts of the Mutapa and Timbuktu.

Shenanigans involving the Holy Roman Empire result in Frederick the Great turning away from looking at sugar extraction research, delaying its introduction and increasing the demand for cane sugar and thus slave labor.

European powers invest in colonial endeavors instead of domestic development, slowing down industrialization. In addition, human capital flees from Europe in the hope of striking fortunes in Africa and/or fleeing persecution in Europe, draining that professional class key to industrialization.

Various polities in Asia and Africa also gain access to quinine, sparking a new era of large-scale jungle warfare and colonialism. The Qing make a more earnest push into northern Vietnam and exert stronger control over Taiwan, resulting in bloodier, sometimes genocidal campaigns.

When many newly claimed territories end up not containing mineral wealth, Europeans turn towards plantations, cultivating sugar and spices all across Africa fueled by massive slave plantations rivalling those of the Caribbean. The slave trade surges in size, and when combined with other factors, such as the introduction of productive but resource-intensive crops from the Columbia Exchange and the proliferation of modern weaponry, results in devastating warfare across Africa, like the Mfecane, but on steroids.

The economic prosperity of slavery is shortly followed by people looking for a moral justification for slavery, which when coinciding with the Enlightenment, results in the early formation of scientific racism. These two factors result in abolitionist societies being significantly weaker than OTL and abolition being substantially delayed.

The outlet valve of emigration to the colonies also reduces pressure for democratic reform in the metropole, so absolute monarchies remain much stronger and face less of a risk of revolution.

European great power conflicts, due to a larger colonial presence, draw in not only their colonies, but also native allies, resulting in large-scale wars that often last far longer in the colonies.

Global trade surges, but that also means a more interconnected world with many more disease vectors. The third bubonic plague wave hits earlier in the 19th century and expands farther and faster than its counterparts, and half a century earlier, meaning there's substantially less advancements in medicine, hygiene, and epidemiology to mitigate its effects. We get ~10% death rates worldwide.

Weaker imperial metropoles from Europe to East Africa to China that have spent way too much money in their colonies and conquests while industrializing less, face substantial unrest. The Qing collapse earlier, with various warlords and a Taiping-esque radicalized theocracy fighting a vicious civil war to become the new dynasty, while colonial revolutions break out across the world, often with polarized populations where there are equally large shares of loyalists, neutrals, and rebels. Some succeed, while others are brutally repressed, but many of these independent colonies end up continuing their overlord's colonialism, just under a new flag.

The HRE fractures during this time, but no hegemon emerges and the great powers are too preoccupied to jointly establish something like the Germany Vonfederation, resulting in a bunch of isolated city-states at the mercy of their larger neighbors. The HRE ends up being partitioned in various subsidiary client states and continues to be a national battleground repeatedly trodden over by great powers, despite undercurrents of pan-Germanism.

Also, malarial resistance to quinine develops, causing even more deaths in the tropical world around the same time the bubonic plague hits. Disease depopulation and protracted warfare result in entire regions collapsing, with the largest form of organization being a depopulated city-states, with some societies returning to tribal societies. When colonial overlords return, they do so with an iron grip that is much less lenient on their weakened subjects, enabled by industrialization finally occurring and allowing stronger power projection from the metropole.

So by the time the 20th century rolls around, the world is a depopulated, backwards, and unstable shadow of its OTL self.
This is a really interesting, thoughtful and depressing scenario. What would make industrialization finally happen? The lower technological level of European forces could let other civilization compete with them, how do the Indian Ocean slave trade evolve in this situation? Could Bengal and India industrialize before Europe and go in a situation more similar to the IOTL development of industrial societies and act as a sort of foil to the slaving, mercantilistic European and European-descendent states?
 
Britain's parliamentary system was practically a preschooler by that point (if we take a birthdate under Longshanks), and was, like most preschoolers, learning to talk and walk and what the rules were (and how to defy them). Not a newborn
That’s beside the point that a Jacobite UK would have meant a shift to a more French-style absolutist system, with all that implies.
 

Beatriz

Gone Fishin'
This is a really interesting, thoughtful and depressing scenario. What would make industrialization finally happen? The lower technological level of European forces could let other civilization compete with them, how do the Indian Ocean slave trade evolve in this situation? Could Bengal and India industrialize before Europe and go in a situation more similar to the IOTL development of industrial societies and act as a sort of foil to the slaving, mercantilistic European and European-descendent states?
Can this scenario receive its own thread to further explore?
 
Supercharge colonialism.

Quinine anti-malarial properties get discovered and adopted en masse at the very beginning of the 18th century, around a century ahead of OTL, enabling the colonization of sub-Saharan Africa and Southeast Asia now that malaria is substantially less of an issue. Peru fails to lock down their cinchona seeds, so the Dutch manage to get their hands on some and began making quinine plantations in Indonesia, thus ensuring a solid global supply of antimalarials.

Trekboers stumble upon the Witwatersrand gold deposits (or the Kimberly diamonds), triggering a frenzy for the African El Dorado, with people chasing historical accounts of the Mutapa and Timbuktu.

Shenanigans involving the Holy Roman Empire result in Frederick the Great turning away from looking at sugar extraction research, delaying its introduction and increasing the demand for cane sugar and thus slave labor.

European powers invest in colonial endeavors instead of domestic development, slowing down industrialization. In addition, human capital flees from Europe in the hope of striking fortunes in Africa and/or fleeing persecution in Europe, draining that professional class key to industrialization.

Various polities in Asia and Africa also gain access to quinine, sparking a new era of large-scale jungle warfare and colonialism. The Qing make a more earnest push into northern Vietnam and exert stronger control over Taiwan, resulting in bloodier, sometimes genocidal campaigns.

When many newly claimed territories end up not containing mineral wealth, Europeans turn towards plantations, cultivating sugar and spices all across Africa fueled by massive slave plantations rivalling those of the Caribbean. The slave trade surges in size, and when combined with other factors, such as the introduction of productive but resource-intensive crops from the Columbia Exchange and the proliferation of modern weaponry, results in devastating warfare across Africa, like the Mfecane, but on steroids.

The economic prosperity of slavery is shortly followed by people looking for a moral justification for slavery, which when coinciding with the Enlightenment, results in the early formation of scientific racism. These two factors result in abolitionist societies being significantly weaker than OTL and abolition being substantially delayed.

The outlet valve of emigration to the colonies also reduces pressure for democratic reform in the metropole, so absolute monarchies remain much stronger and face less of a risk of revolution.

European great power conflicts, due to a larger colonial presence, draw in not only their colonies, but also native allies, resulting in large-scale wars that often last far longer in the colonies.

Global trade surges, but that also means a more interconnected world with many more disease vectors. The third bubonic plague wave hits earlier in the 19th century and expands farther and faster than its counterparts, and half a century earlier, meaning there's substantially less advancements in medicine, hygiene, and epidemiology to mitigate its effects. We get ~10% death rates worldwide.

Weaker imperial metropoles from Europe to East Africa to China that have spent way too much money in their colonies and conquests while industrializing less, face substantial unrest. The Qing collapse earlier, with various warlords and a Taiping-esque radicalized theocracy fighting a vicious civil war to become the new dynasty, while colonial revolutions break out across the world, often with polarized populations where there are equally large shares of loyalists, neutrals, and rebels. Some succeed, while others are brutally repressed, but many of these independent colonies end up continuing their overlord's colonialism, just under a new flag.

The HRE fractures during this time, but no hegemon emerges and the great powers are too preoccupied to jointly establish something like the Germany Vonfederation, resulting in a bunch of isolated city-states at the mercy of their larger neighbors. The HRE ends up being partitioned in various subsidiary client states and continues to be a national battleground repeatedly trodden over by great powers, despite undercurrents of pan-Germanism.

Also, malarial resistance to quinine develops, causing even more deaths in the tropical world around the same time the bubonic plague hits. Disease depopulation and protracted warfare result in entire regions collapsing, with the largest form of organization being a depopulated city-states, with some societies returning to tribal societies. When colonial overlords return, they do so with an iron grip that is much less lenient on their weakened subjects, enabled by industrialization finally occurring and allowing stronger power projection from the metropole.

So by the time the 20th century rolls around, the world is a depopulated, backwards, and unstable shadow of its OTL self.
This seems like great material for an interesting yet heartbreaking TL.
 
I wonder if France could have beaten Britain in India and still held the most powerful navy, but lost in America and indebted themselves by financing the American Revolution

That way you still have the conditions set for a French Revolution, but also give France what would have been the British Empire

A combination of the power of Victorian Britain with a continuously going Reign of Terror where the white supremacy and religious extremism is still enthusiastically enforced but now with Catholicism replaced by the french new state religion(something along the lines of the Cult of Reason/Supreme Being) resulting a world that very much looks like a cross between French Indochina and the Khmer Rouge where the OTL ideals of the French Revolution(Liberty & Equality) are not simply a footnote in history, but actively loathed for being seen as the cause for how the world turned this way in a similar vein to how the Medieval Church is perceived in modern culture for the "Dark Ages"
 
This is a really interesting, thoughtful and depressing scenario. What would make industrialization finally happen? The lower technological level of European forces could let other civilization compete with them, how do the Indian Ocean slave trade evolve in this situation? Could Bengal and India industrialize before Europe and go in a situation more similar to the IOTL development of industrial societies and act as a sort of foil to the slaving, mercantilistic European and European-descendent states?
Industrialization still happens; it just happens a bit later. Europe still has the requisite technologies and the capital formation to industrialize, but with more money and manpower flowing out to the colonies, it just takes longer to do so.

In this scenario, the devastation that Africa faces and high European demand means the slave supply contracts severely. I imagine some states that heavily rely on the slave trade, like Zanzibar, when combined with other factors, collapse, while others adapt an develop a more US-esque slave system, where more people are born into slavery than are imported.

Bengal is an interesting question, because I'm not sure the POD is early enough to butterfly Plassey. Admittedly, I haven't given India too much thought in this late-night scenario I cooked up. The other issue with Bengal is that the augmented plagues will hit it hard due to its placement at the center of a massive trade network and a high population density, but Bengal is a strong candidate for being one of the first outside Europe to industrialize if it remains independent. That being said, Bengal is a huge winner here, given that one of its primary exports is saltpetre. This scenario is one with a lot more endemic warfare, so Bengal's near-monopoly on saltpeter coupled with much higher demand for gunpowder (especially in Africa, where domestic production is lacking) brings it a ton of money to spur development, stabilize the region, and developed advanced capital & research institutions. Also, the anti-malarials will significantly benefit Bengal, where a lot of the country is effectively prime mosquito breeding grounds.

I'm not entirely sure it will beat out the earliest industrializers in Europe due to the lack of systematized science (as far as I know), but I could easily see them industrializing alongside the likes of the German states and Sweden. Same thing with Mysore, if it avoids being conquered.

Edit: regarding industrialization, funnily enough, some colonies might industrialize faster than the metropole. Sugar mills were among the first mechanized factories, for instance, and South Africa coal could fuel the mines in the region.
 
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