Was the "Glorious Revolution" justified?

Was the "Glorious Revolution" justified?

  • Yes

    Votes: 65 57.5%
  • No

    Votes: 48 42.5%

  • Total voters
    113
1522180442561


Simple question really.
Do you feel that the usurption of the English, Welsh, and Scottish crowns by the House of Orange was justified?

Been reading about the justifications used by the English Protestant conspirators and seems, with hindsight in mind, that James II wasn't jockying for an outright Catholic domination of the British government, but rather for more equality between the Protestants and Catholics. Moreover, I doubt that the charges of him conspiring to bring back absolute rule were founded on solid ground. After Charles I, there was no Parliament, Catholic dominated or not, that was going to allow that to happen.

(Dear god, am I becoming a Jacobite...)

Thoughts?
 
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While we know NOW that the GR was unnecessary as I understand it the usurpers thought themselves justified at the time.
It's unclear though that if they had the complete accurate facts whether they still would go ahead.
 
It was never justified. James II was the rightful king and his son James III was the rightful Prince of Wales. James II should’ve been more resolute in exterminating the Whig threat which he was warned of by his advisors and Louis XIV numerous times.
 
James II wasn't jockying for an outright Catholic domination of the British government, but rather for more equality between the Protestants and Catholics.
While i do firmly believe that such ideal was ethical (by modern political standards), i think the main problem here was religious chauvinism.
Much like the modern European far-right fear of Muslim immigrants replacing the "white" Europeans ethnically, politically, and culturally, the Protestant Englishmen of old were fearful of "popish plots" to undermine British religious independence and the influence of parliament. This notion is repeated in post-independence USA.
 
James II had a policy of religious tolerance. Sure, a lot of his advisors and close friends were Catholics, but he didn't oppress the Protestants. He was actually still very popular when his conversion became public. However, baseless accusations that he was a puppet of France and that he was brining absolutism back started to be believed by the Protestant fence sitters. Soon, the large English protestant majority didn't want him (he was still liked in Scotland).

One good thing out of GR. Liz is a cool lady
 
James II had a policy of religious tolerance. Sure, a lot of his advisors and close friends were Catholics, but he didn't oppress the Protestants. He was actually still very popular when his conversion became public. However, baseless accusations that he was a puppet of France and that he was brining absolutism back started to be believed by the Protestant fence sitters. Soon, the large English protestant majority didn't want him (he was still liked in Scotland).

Wow there is a lot wrong with this post. James II absolutely did oppress the Protestant Churches of England, Scotland and Ireland, he confiscated Protestant churches and converted them into Catholic ones he purged the Protestant Fellows of Oxford Colleges (who were all in Holy Orders) in order to replace them with Catholics. Now you could argue that he wasn't doing anything that Elizabeth and James V hadn't done before but it is oppression. As for his popularity he was far from popular after his conversion became public, Charles II had to exile him from court and send him to Scotland and between 1679 and 1681 there was a sustained Parliamentary campaign to exclude him from the Succession which only ended because the Whig's overplayed their hands and alienated moderate opinion (which until then had supported them) with the Rye House Plot. As for being a French puppet he like his brother was in receipt of a French Pension and while not completely subservient took his lead from Louis XIV in foreign policy. In addition he absolutely was trying to make England an Absolute Monarchy, after Parliament refused to repeal the Penal Laws he dissolved it and ruled without Parliament and by decree. Finally he was not liked in Scotland. Scottish Jacobitism was largely a later phenomenon caused by nature of the Scottish Glorious Revolution (which alienated the large Episcopalian minority) and the Acts of Union. In 1688 there were armed uprising that defeated local loyalists without any outside help.

Basically James II was a disaster and he absolutely brought the Glorious Revolution on to himself.
 
James II absolutely did oppress the Protestant Churches of England, Scotland and Ireland, he confiscated Protestant churches and converted them into Catholic ones he purged the Protestant Fellows of Oxford Colleges (who were all in Holy Orders) in order to replace them with Catholics.
Wait, isn't this just Whig propaganda from the time? IIRC, the reason as to why James penalized the Whig college administrators was because they were refusing service for non-Anglicans.
 
I've always been sceptical of the recent attempts to rehabilitate James II, as opposed to simply reject the most outlandish pieces of protestant propaganda.

Absolutism might not have been the end goal but James showed an authoritarian streak and a tendency to govern by decree that only grew throughout his reign.

Moreover, both I and the folks at the time would probably have been far less sceptics of his intents to simply achieve toleration had he deployed the same kind of effort to achieve a similar status to the disident protestants then he did with the catholics (TBF he did make some efforts for the dissenters but it paled in comparaison). By not doing so he not only forfeited a good occasion to expand his base of support but coloured his efforts as mainly aiming to improve the status of the catholics at the expanse of non-dissident protestants, with no guarantee that he would stop at simple equality.

Both tendencies led to much of the ruling classes of England and Lowland Scotland (most of the resistance to the Glorious Revolution in Scotland where centered in the Highlands) to believe that James was both trying to, at the very least, return to a pre-Civil War balance of power between parliament and the monarchy and to help catholicism recover what it had lost since Elizabeth I. We can debate wheter those beliefs where accurate but its pretty easy, IMO, to see how James actions would have helped them spread.

At the end of the day James II had only himself to blame. The restoration of the monarchy with Charles II was based on a series of understandings, both explicit and implicit, and James actions putted said understandings back in question, thus leading to the Whigs and a sizable chunks of the Tories deciding that they not only should but had to react to save their power and possibly their heads.

It was never justified. James II was the rightful king and his son James III was the rightful Prince of Wales. James II should’ve been more resolute in exterminating the Whig threat which he was warned of by his advisors and Louis XIV numerous times.

Considering the role his excessive repression of the Montmouth Rebellion played in trigering the Glorious Revolution I'd go on a limb and say that such a policy would only have lead to an earlier Glorious Revolution and less Jacobites to support a restauration afterward.
 
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Md139115

Banned
He may have been an idiot, but he was still the rightful king, even many of the Protestant lords recognized it at the time.
 
James was making some moves towards forming a formal alliance with the French which would be a mortal threat to the Dutch Republic, and William, having the means to deal with it, acted in pursuit of self defence for the Republic.

Hence, he was justified in doing so.
 
He may have been an idiot, but he was still the rightful king, even many of the Protestant lords recognized it at the time.
By 1688 you had a 300 years and counting tradition of parliament deposing kings (true, in the early cases they merely rubber stamped it but still) and changing the succession line so Id argue parliament had the right to decide who was king by that point.

Hell no. They put self before country
Considering Britain did exceedingly well in the decades following the Glorious Revolution by any objective standarts I would be curious to hear your reasoning here.
 

VVD0D95

Banned
By 1688 you had a 300 years and counting tradition of parliament deposing kings (true, in the early cases they merely rubber stamped it but still) and changing the succession line so Id argue parliament had the right to decide who was king by that point.


Considering Britain did exceedingly well in the decades following the Glorious Revolution by any objective standarts I would be curious to hear your reasoning here.

Britain doing well was a matter of chance and good financial sense. However, they deposed a King not out of any tyranny fear, but because they weren't in positions of power, and they felt William would give them that. You honestly think they'd have deposed the King if the immortal seven had been in government?
 
Considering Britain did exceedingly well in the decades following the Glorious Revolution by any objective standarts I would be curious to hear your reasoning here.

Parliament simply wanted William because they couldn't tolerate James. they put self before country. This is all they thought about.

By a very happy coincidence, the ministers under the Georges were usually capable and Victorian times let Britain reach the hight of its power.
 
Parliament simply wanted William because they couldn't tolerate James. they put self before country. This is all they thought about.

By a very happy coincidence, the ministers under the Georges were usually capable and Victorian times let Britain reach the hight of its power.

This is drivel. The country benefitted massively from the Revolution, which was the beginning of Britain's boom from a couple of minor European Kingdoms to the world's greatest power with the highest living standards in the world.
 
Of course the glorious revolution was justified. The alliance between England and France was a threat to the Netherlands. William III had to neutralise that threat somehow and invading England and taking over as king was the most efficient way to ensure the survival of his own country.
 
Sovereignty lies with parliament. It is up to them to choose whichever king or dynasty they like best.

Yeah no. I am the GR made it so that it rested with "crown in" parliament (really parliament), but before then it was with the sovereign (by setting a precedent they could do away with an annoying monarch).

Victorian times let Britain reach the hight of its power.

By an "ends justify the means" logic, I should switch my vote. But I am a fan of deontology
 
Britain doing well was a matter of chance and good financial sense. However, they deposed a King not out of any tyranny fear, but because they weren't in positions of power, and they felt William would give them that. You honestly think they'd have deposed the King if the immortal seven had been in government?

Allot of the territorial and geopolitical gains of the next 30 years where made at France expense and therefore wouldnt have happened without the Glorious Revolution, I also tend to think the government who came from the Revolution had allot more financial savy then the previous ones.

You also cant separate the fact that the Whigs and the moderate Tories werent in government with James authoritarianism as easily as you did: both groups genuinely believed in parliamentary power to some degree and its simply impossible to imagine them and James getting along, and the former being in government, if James still had its OTL authoritarian tendencies.

Parliament simply wanted William because they couldn't tolerate James. they put self before country. This is all they thought about.

By the same logic James mainly wanted to crack down on parlementary power because he similarly couldnt tolerate the opposition... To say somebody put himself ahead of his country you have to explain how the pursuit of his interest knowingly damaged said country and I simply dont see said damages in post-Glorious Revolution Britain.
 
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